Is Hero too preditable?

[zornwil]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

It's not so much the crit thing in d20. Crits are damn difficult to get unless you are skilled. You might get lucky, but being skilled actually helps. You have to make a second roll upon getting that lucky 20, and that second roll just has to succeed normally. If you are completly unskilled and need that 20 just to succeed, you probably aren't going to crit.

 

But there is this happy little rule that a 20 always succeeds anda 1 always fails. And this is regardless of skill. There's a tiny little rule that says if you would fail by 10 or more even if you roll a 20, you automatically fail without a roll, and something similar to succeeding on a 1, but such things are rare. You basicly have a 5% chance of failing something you are really good at (with is way too high) and a 5% chance of succeeding at anything you totally suck at (which again, is too high).

 

Does it make the game more unpredictable? Sure as hell does! The skilled failing and the unskilled succeding would define upredictable.

Well, it's not a core system feature, it's easy to ignore/modify, and furthermore, importantly, one can (and generally should) not require a skill roll in ANY heroic roleplay system for something that is (as kicked this off) "routine". One does skill rolls for time-sensitive things or challenges.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

What is predictable about Hero?

 

Well, someone who is good at combat can expect to hit reliably, but it is by no means certain. To hit, Hero uses 3d6: a bell curve, but not too steep: extreme reults do happen (with alarming frequency in practice)

 

Someone who hits hard can expect a certain range of damage when they land a bow, but they won't know what they are going to get. Now Hero damage applies differently to almost every other system: we have substantial reductions from damage in the form of defences, and the amount through defences can be critical if it amounts to a stun result; a small differnce in damage rolled can make a huge difference in effect.

 

I strongly suspect that anyone who does not think that Hero is random enough has little real feel for the way the game works and how the mechanics mesh in practice. To assume that it works like other games and should therefore have 'greater' randomness is to miss the subtlety and beauty of the system.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

A skeleton with a battle axe versus a fighter in banded mail seems pretty unpredictable in Hero. It could roll 4 Body and a x1 stun multiplier, and the fighter barely feels it. Or, it could roll an 11 Body and a x5 stun multiplier, and the fighter is badly injured, Stunned, and very nearly KO'ed.

 

You can ask one of my players how he feels about that.

 

I actually feel that the stun multiplier is too UNpredictable.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

Well' date=' it's not a core system feature, it's easy to ignore/modify, and furthermore, importantly, one can (and generally should) not require a skill roll in ANY heroic roleplay system for something that is (as kicked this off) "routine". One does skill rolls for time-sensitive things or challenges.[/quote']

 

Automatically succeeding when you roll a 20 isn't a core system feature in d20? Seems like it's all over the books concerning attack rolls and skill rolls and saving throws and such.

 

I agree about when a skill should be asked for though. My grudge is that when it really matters, the unskilled and ignorant have too high a chance of success and the skilled and talented have too high a chance for failure.

[zornwil]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

Automatically succeeding when you roll a 20 isn't a core system feature in d20? Seems like it's all over the books concerning attack rolls and skill rolls and saving throws and such.

 

I agree about when a skill should be asked for though. My grudge is that when it really matters, the unskilled and ignorant have too high a chance of success and the skilled and talented have too high a chance for failure.

First, I was referring to failure, and the question is, when we discuss "core", is does the game break if you remove automatic critical failure?

 

Actually, I have heard that WotC has said that only thac0 is really the core part of the system. Think about what that means!

[Silbeg]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

That said' date=' I do empathize with the idea that you can roll a 3 and then do lousy damage. Our house rule is that if you roll under half of what you needed to hit (that is if you need a 12 to hit and you roll a 6 or lower), or a 3 in any event, then you get to roll damage twice and take the better roll. It does take slightly longer, but let me tell you players love being able to redo a bad roll.[/quote']

My group used to treat a 3 as a critical hit, which allowed for max damage. However, based on someone's idea (on these boards), we have recently changed this to allow the damage to be the nest possible result. This is, in part, due to certain characters' Psych Lims, such as CvK, being violated by a "good" roll.

 

As for the idea of the lack of variability in Hero System combat, I would say that practical experience (about25 years of Hero gaming) shows variability is the norm, not the exception

[SteelDoom]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

Your chance of rolling maximum damage on 15d6 is about one in 50 million.

 

About the best I've done is all sixes on 8d6 (almost 1 in 2 million), then again I wonder how many times I've rolled dice in 17 years of gaming. And yes, I'm the guy that everyone around the table complains that I suck up all the good rolls

[Kristopher]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

The "Probability Sink", as it were.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

First' date=' I was referring to failure, and the question is, when we discuss "core", is does the game break if you remove automatic critical failure?[/quote']

I assume you mean normal automatic failure and not critical, since a critical failure is not even remotely automatic (and the d20 rules specifically say it's a bad idea to use critical failures in the first place). If you do remove the roll a 1 and automatically fail rule, the system for determing success and failure become more fair/balanced. Removing the roll a 20 and automatically succeed would seem to destroy all hope for some characters though, so I'm not sure. I just think the 3d6 bell curve is a much better way of determing success and failure.

 

Actually, I have heard that WotC has said that only thac0 is really the core part of the system. Think about what that means!

Funny, because THAC0 was one of the first things WotC tossed out when they redid the system.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

The "Probability Sink"' date=' as it were.[/quote']

 

Probability Sink:

 

Term used to describe a boat with a hole in it.

[zornwil]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

I assume you mean normal automatic failure and not critical, since a critical failure is not even remotely automatic (and the d20 rules specifically say it's a bad idea to use critical failures in the first place). If you do remove the roll a 1 and automatically fail rule, the system for determing success and failure become more fair/balanced. Removing the roll a 20 and automatically succeed would seem to destroy all hope for some characters though, so I'm not sure. I just think the 3d6 bell curve is a much better way of determing success and failure.

 

 

Funny, because THAC0 was one of the first things WotC tossed out when they redid the system.

From the game designers discussing it at DDC, that's how I heard it. I haven't read the system yet but just bought it; perhaps there's some sort of core of that, dunno myself.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

From the game designers discussing it at DDC' date=' that's how I heard it. I haven't read the system yet but just bought it; perhaps there's some sort of core of that, dunno myself.[/quote']

 

From what I can tell, having read the previous AD&D 2nd edition and the new WotC 3e and 3.5e, the only element I can find that's "core" is you roll a d20 to determine success and failure. Nothing else seemed sacred enough to keep as it was. Even how abilities were rolled up was changed.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

From what I can tell' date=' having read the previous AD&D 2nd edition and the new WotC 3e and 3.5e, the only element I can find that's "core" is you roll a d20 to determine success and failure. Nothing else seemed sacred enough to keep as it was. Even how abilities were rolled up was changed.[/quote']

Yep. I even occaisonally call the new D&D, "Class/Level-Based D20 Hero."

[SteelDoom]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

It's worth noting that the auto fail or succeed does not apply to skill checks, just saving throws and attack rolls. DnD 3.5 is a good system at it's core and quite balanced. If you bring in the suppliments then that balance has to be re inforced by GM edict, just like Hero. I do disagree to an extent, Ghost Raven, I think the spirit of AD&D is reasonably well preserved overall. Though I've always been a Rolemaster fanboi (until recently) at heart

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

I do disagree to an extent' date=' Ghost Raven, I think the spirit of AD&D is reasonably well preserved overall. Though I've always been a Rolemaster fanboi (until recently) at heart [/quote']

 

Personally, I feel AD&D's spirit was broken, brainwashed and rereleased into the public in much the same way a psychopath is when declaired sane just because he couldn't manage to eat someone's kidneys with a straightjacket on.

 

Of course, I'm also a bitter, jadded, cynical bastard. And I think WotC is the best thing to happen to the D&D franchise since Harvard, though it's still just a pale shadow of the reality that is the Hero System.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

Personally' date=' I feel AD&D's spirit was broken, brainwashed and rereleased into the public in much the same way a psychopath is when declaired sane just because he couldn't manage to eat someone's kidneys with a straightjacket on.[/quote']

Yeah. D&D 3+ just doesn't feel like 2nd Edition. Of course, most of the, "2.5 Edition," stuff (like Skills and Powers and Combat and Tactics) didn't either. With the lack of nostalgia and the Heroification of the system mechanics, I really see zero reasons to play it at this point.

[zornwil]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

My impression is 3/3.5 was a deliberate overhaul and as such wasn't necessarily supposed to feel like 2nd.

[Kristopher]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

Yeah, but it's still class and level based, and still uses a single die with no curve, and still crams armor and avoidance into "armor class", so to me it still feels exactly like an itchy, ill-fitting, smelly old sweater, er, I mean exactly like D&D.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

My impression is 3/3.5 was a deliberate overhaul and as such wasn't necessarily supposed to feel like 2nd.

Sure. The point is that if it doesn't feel like D&D, and it only comes mechanically part of the way toward Hero, there is absolutely no reason you shouldn't just go all the way to Hero instead of sticking with, "D&D."

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

Personally, I feel AD&D's spirit was broken, brainwashed and rereleased into the public in much the same way a psychopath is when declaired sane just because he couldn't manage to eat someone's kidneys with a straightjacket on.

 

Of course, I'm also a bitter, jadded, cynical bastard. And I think WotC is the best thing to happen to the D&D franchise since Harvard, though it's still just a pale shadow of the reality that is the Hero System.

 

Would you like a dash of bile with your venom, Sir?

 

This is so beautifully put I'd rep you if I could, and I will if I remember, when I can.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

Yeah. D&D 3+ just doesn't feel like 2nd Edition. Of course' date=' most of the, "2.5 Edition," stuff (like [u']Skills and Powers[/u] and Combat and Tactics) didn't either. With the lack of nostalgia and the Heroification of the system mechanics, I really see zero reasons to play it at this point.

 

I rather like it actually. I find the new edition actually playable and balanced. I'd say the brainwashing worked. Of course, it can only do fantasy, only allows for a limited number of roles (which must be adhered to strictly to have successful characters), and a rigid magic system, but I must say it does these things quite well.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

Would you like a dash of bile with your venom' date=' Sir?[/quote']

 

No bile thank you, but a side of spittle would be nice.

[zornwil]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

Sure. The point is that if it doesn't feel like D&D' date=' and it only comes mechanically part of the way toward Hero, there is absolutely [i']no[/i] reason you shouldn't just go all the way to Hero instead of sticking with, "D&D."

That would suggest that there aren't other valid flavors of heroic roleplay rntended for multiple genra, which doesn't really make sense.

[Markdoc]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

I rather like it actually. I find the new edition actually playable and balanced.

 

I'm an old grognard who can remember the truly 'orrible "brown books" and still owns a copy ofChainmail - and even I like it.

 

I would not, however, describe it as even remotely balanced. Hero system, while not perfectly balanced, does give you reasonable guidelines. d20, OTOH, seems to actively encourage munchkinism: a player who plays a standard fighter or a standard sorceror for example, is going to be totally overshadowed by any one of the variety of combo characters.

 

I don't think this is entirely by accident - the cynic in me says the system is deliberately designed to be unbalanced, to encourage players to buy the splatbooks like Defenders of the Faith and so on. Why play a boring old cleric when you can have a Cleric/Hospitallar, who's stronger, faster, more hygenic? Of course to include one, you have to buy the add-on book. Good for sales, but not good for balance, especially when you combine add-ons from different books which can unexpected synergies.

 

In last week's game, my wife (having seen the party saved, once again by my character creatively using power combos) gave me a withering look and said "You're such a munchkin" - and I was thinking "Just wait. Two more levels and I'll not only have the butt-kickingest stealth fighter with great saves - but I'll also take no damage from any attack that I can save against!"

 

And to get this killer combo, I had to give up.... well almost nothing, really.

 

It's a fun game, but D20 is really a "D&D simulation" game. Taken in that light, munchkinism is simply part of the deal, just like a group of peculiar folk going undeground to kill wierd creatures and get loot their bodies.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Hero too preditable?

 

It's a fun game, but D20 is really a "D&D simulation" game. Taken in that light, munchkinism is simply part of the deal, just like a group of peculiar folk going undeground to kill wierd creatures and get loot their bodies.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

...and one of the best and easiest XP earners is assassinating party members. Truly bizarre. Also quite fun to play in short bursts: well they have to be short:

 

DM: The party meets in a roadside tavern.

 

Rogue: I'll use stealth to get around behind the wizard....