McCoy Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists Thought about this a bit more after having made the post. At the very least' date=' the generation ship would orbit the planet for several years to make climate studies to ensure they didn't land someplace in the path of frequent hurricanes or typhoons. That would be a bit of a pain. "Yay, we traveled several hundred light years to get here, now we get to wait another decade while we study the planet." But its better than being bug food. [/quote'] I'm going to assume they are not starting out blind, that there are robot probes in the target system that have transmitted data to Earth and will continue to transmit to the shipin transit. Likewise I think it would be wise to plan for a fall back to iron age tech as a worst case scenerio, but don't think that will be the most probable scenerio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSword Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists I'm going to assume they are not starting out blind, that there are robot probes in the target system that have transmitted data to Earth and will continue to transmit to the shipin transit. True, though it greatly expands the time to between plan and execution of forming a colony mission. If the proposed planet is 50 light years away. Thats 50+ years of travel time for the probe, 50 years of transit time for the data to return to Earth to determine if the planet is even feasible. Guess its good for the colonist to know that they have 100 years of planning behind the launch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists True' date=' though it greatly expands the time to between plan and execution of forming a colony mission. If the proposed planet is 50 light years away. Thats 50+ years of travel time for the probe, 50 years of transit time for the data to return to Earth to determine if the planet is even feasible. Guess its good for the colonist to know that they have 100 years of planning behind the launch.[/quote'] Probes can be sent to multiple stars, start preparing ships and colonist to establish a belter/spacer culture. If planet with a shirtsleve enviroment found, start recruiting colonist for there based on that. Depends on how widespread life is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists I'm going to assume they are not starting out blind, that there are robot probes in the target system that have transmitted data to Earth and will continue to transmit to the shipin transit. Likewise I think it would be wise to plan for a fall back to iron age tech as a worst case scenerio, but don't think that will be the most probable scenerio. Yeah, if reverting to iron age tech is the probable scenario, good luck getting people to sign up. bigdamnhero “They say that verbal insults hurt more than physical pain. They are, of course, wrong, as you will soon discover...†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists Sure. My point is' date=' going to another planet means an even longer more one way trip. They are going to have to be speical people.[/quote'] Or the situation at home just has to be really crappy cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists Yeah' date=' if reverting to iron age tech [b']is[/b] the probable scenario, good luck getting people to sign up. Forget that - good luck getting funding. Imagine: CBO: "so the colony mission is going to cost 1.3 trillion dollars. And how long do you think it will be before the colony is self-sustaining and economically productive?" General: "About 1500 years." CBO "1500 YEARS!" General: "Well the plan is that the thing collapses to Iron Age technology, and then they build up from there. Probably." CBO: "Uh, would you mind going outside for a moment while we discuss this?" Not even. Let's just say their technology takes a big hit. Frankly, I'd rather have my blacksmith make sten guns than chainmail and swords. Any moderately competent group of techs can manage 20th century tech with basic handtools. If their technology collapses back past that, they're fukt. cheers,Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists A few other things to consider: Colonization is an inherently aggressive act. Once they arrive on an alien world, humans will change evreything there even if they are totally out of contact with Earth and no "reinforcements" are coming. If theer are no sentients on the planet, the presence of humans is still going to have unpredictable effects on the new planet's ecology as the native plant and animal species of the planet are forced to compete with the ones the humans bring over. (And the humand will need to bring over plants at the very least, because they won't know for a long time whether any of the native flora and fauna is safe for humans to eat, much less palatable.) And if there are other sentients already there, "we come in peace" isn't going to last very long -- it's an alien invasion of the homeworld, and we're the bad guys. The resulting war is likely to be extreemly nasty, possibly even genocidal. Aside from that, once you have commited the reources of a colony, from the point of view of the people left behind they are gone forever. You simply don't throw away things that are of value to you. So a colony is likely to be composed entirely of "undesriables" -- criminals, political and religoous dissidents, and others the society wants to get rid of. Being put on one of the colony ships would be a sentence as severe as Transport to Australia was in the 18th and 19th centuries. In which case, simply shooting off the vessels in random directions without any concern as to where they evetually end up makes just as much sense as actually seeking out a reasonable destination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists Aside from that' date=' once you have commited the reources of a colony, from the point of view of the people left behind they are gone forever. You simply don't throw away things that are of value to you. So a colony is likely to be composed entirely of "undesriables" -- criminals, political and religoous dissidents, and others the society wants to get rid of. Being put on one of the colony ships would be a sentence as severe as Transport to Australia was in the 18th and 19th centuries. In which case, simply shooting off the vessels in random directions without any concern as to where they evetually end up makes just as much sense as actually seeking out a reasonable destination.[/quote'] Well, historically speaking, Australia is the exception not the rule. Even the Pilgrims weren't kicked out of England, but emigrated voluntarily, and none of the other American colonies come close to that model. Nations (or groups) don't generally sink the kind of resources required to found distant colonies without some expectation of return: mostly natural resources or strategic advantage. And you don't trust something that important to criminals & dissidents. bigdamnhero "One clever and cunning individual has a good chance of getting away with a well-planned interpersonal crime. Bring one partner into the crime and the odds of getting away with it drop considerably. The more people involved in the crime, the harder it is to get away with it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists True' date=' though it greatly expands the time to between plan and execution of forming a colony mission. If the proposed planet is 50 light years away. Thats 50+ years of travel time for the probe, 50 years of transit time for the data to return to Earth to determine if the planet is even feasible. Guess its good for the colonist to know that they have 100 years of planning behind the launch.[/quote'] With devices and techniques that exist now, an observatory on the far side of Luna could pick out earth-sized planets in orbits in the "habitable zone" around extra-solar stars, with a well-over 80% true-positive rate (i.e., if the methods say there is such a planet, it's 80%+ likely there is; the accuracy of "no there isn't" would be much lower). As far in the future as a light-speed drive would be, I would expect that figure to climb to 99.99999% or better, with a 99.9% or better accuracy on the reflection spectrum. Thus, the size, surface gravity, average heat, atmospheric composition, and some other information on a potentially settlable planet would be known before the ship's "keel" were laid. If a probe were sent out 5-15 years ahead of the ship, it could inform the ship of details of the planet before the ship arrived, making it possible for the ship to adjust the details of the settling-scheme ahead of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists With devices and techniques that exist now' date=' an observatory on the far side of Luna could pick out earth-sized planets in orbits in the "habitable zone" around extra-solar stars, with a well-over 80% true-positive rate[/quote'] Given today's tech, how distant stars would this work for? I would assume the accuracy drops off fairly quickly with range? bigdamnhero “The path of my life is strewn with cowpats from the devil's own satanic herd!†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists Given today's tech, how distant stars would this work for? I would assume the accuracy drops off fairly quickly with range? I believe out to 20-30 light years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale A. Ward Posted January 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists ~shakes his head in awe~ The government is missing out on a HUGE think tank by not consulting you people. When I become the invincible overlord, I will make room for thousands of gamers in my throng of minions, and listen very carefully to even their most inane ramblings! ~grin~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists ~shakes his head in awe~ The government is missing out on a HUGE think tank by not consulting you people. That would require a govt. that looks farther into the future than the next election. When I become the invincible overlord' date='[/quote'] What do you mean, you become the invincible overlord?? I will make room for thousands of gamers in my throng of minions' date=' and listen very carefully to even their most inane ramblings![/quote'] No, not the inane ramblings; it's the insane ramblings you have to listen to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rage Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists Well, historically speaking, Australia is the exception not the rule. Even the Pilgrims weren't kicked out of England, but emigrated voluntarily, and none of the other American colonies come close to that model. Nations (or groups) don't generally sink the kind of resources required to found distant colonies without some expectation of return: mostly natural resources or strategic advantage. And you don't trust something that important to criminals & dissidents. bigdamnhero "One clever and cunning individual has a good chance of getting away with a well-planned interpersonal crime. Bring one partner into the crime and the odds of getting away with it drop considerably. The more people involved in the crime, the harder it is to get away with it." No, heaps of people were "transported" to the American colonies, often having to work as a slave or indentured servant for many years before even being able to think of returning to the mother/father country. Many of the polynesian islands had transported folk as weel. It was not just Australia. You're right that people did travel to the new world undeer their own free will too, but this was usually because the situation in their own country had become unbareable to them. The pilgrims were considered religious crack pots, the irish were starving, the Dutch lived in Holland... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists Well, historically speaking, Australia is the exception not the rule. Even the Pilgrims weren't kicked out of England, but emigrated voluntarily, and none of the other American colonies come close to that model. Nations (or groups) don't generally sink the kind of resources required to found distant colonies without some expectation of return: mostly natural resources or strategic advantage. And you don't trust something that important to criminals & dissidents. Which is a good argument to suggest that interstellar exploarion and colonization is such an inherently pointless exercise that even cosndiering it, much less making an actual attempt, is utterly mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists No, heaps of people were "transported" to the American colonies, often having to work as a slave or indentured servant for many years before even being able to think of returning to the mother/father country. Many of the polynesian islands had transported folk as weel. It was not just Australia. You're right that people did travel to the new world undeer their own free will too, but this was usually because the situation in their own country had become unbareable to them. The pilgrims were considered religious crack pots, the irish were starving, the Dutch lived in Holland... Point(s) taken. bigdamnhero "This is my BOOM stick!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rage Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists Point(s) taken. bigdamnhero "This is my BOOM stick!" Nah, you were right in spirit. Many people seemed to like the freer liftestyles offered by the colonies and never left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard00 Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 Re: SciFi Colonists I don't see why a mix of the two wouldn't be feasible. For example, a core of scientists, colonists and even military/security, mix liberally with a selection of "useful" laborers and the like culled from minimum security prisons. Not every criminal is a hardcore criminal, and an indentured servitude in return for a reduced sentence might entice many of the undesirables and still give the government a practical workforce. Use of control collars or somesuch would probably be the best bet of keeping the criminals in line until they've earned their freedom. Just an idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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