A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

[zornwil]

I was just thinking that while we (including I) often scrutinize the abusive ways of Frameworks, the reality is they work well with "abuse" also, so long as it's consistent with the campaign, among players, and supports some sort of desirable construct in the end.

 

By this I mean a few aspects of so-called abuse. The first is simply willful exploitation. By allowing what are basically over-effective (in reference to cost) we can often employ a Framework to give us some desired power that otherwise just seems too expensive. It might be that the power is in fact over-effective, but in any game where a player plays by a "gentleman's agreement" sort of code to not over-use it. It's sort of a way of saying, "well, can we stretch without actual breaking points limits." I'm not suggesting you can't just give an exception in points, either, but I'm simply indicating this relatively benign use (such as letting a player, say, cram 15 slots into an MP or some-such) remains legal and while we might question the more extreme uses, this can be an elegant way of handling them so long as everyone plays fair.

 

The second is deliberate misuse, such as, for example, letting an MP slot's AP exceed the MP control cost or allowing 0 END powers in ECs. The use is quite similar to above; what's interesting is that misusing these Frameworks this way can sometimes lead to desirable results that are basically suggested, in spirit, by the system but essentially have a sort of "double stop sign" if you will by being technically illegal. Sometimes this can be cost effective, sometimes this can just work better conceptually than other alternatives in writing up a chaacter.

 

The third is gross exploitation and misuse, I guess I'd say, such as cramming all your Chars into an EC, or the like. Still, quite useful if we want to support certain concepts. More interestingly, when this third sort of approach is allowed for all players, we get a sort of way to build very high-powered characters without just exaggerating points given, with some interesting effects that, while unbalancing, really allow for mindboggling power among a sort of medium power level otherwise. If the players all play well, this can be fun. Frankly, I have often used this approach, particularly as I think in effect it's proved to be an easy way to balance against extremely smart builds that are book legal but very effective. Those sort of builds tend to approximate simply taking Frameworks and abusing them in simple (as opposed to tricky) ways for character constructs that are hard to build on limited points otherwise.

 

I'm not suggesting that others should do any of these, nor am I promoting such a use in the sense of suggesting people change how they now do things. However, I've noted many people shrugging when saying that they run Frameworks in some unusual fashion or another and saying "hey, works for me." And I know in real life as opposed to strict rules interpretation I've allowed some goofy builds to allow for achieving certain character constructs, and seen others do so. So I wanted to celebrate that in and of itself.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

When I started reading this post of yours, zornwil, I didn't realize you were celebrating the "abuse" of frameworks! Needless to say, by the time I reached the end, I realized where you were going with it.

 

And as someone who's done my fair share of "abusing" frameworks over the years in order to get certain character concepts to work 'right', I'll join you in that celebrating!

[Super Squirrel]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

If a player wants to creatively abuse a framework, congrats for them in doing something unique. Now all I need is Drain Creative SFX

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

If a player wants to creatively abuse a framework' date=' congrats for them in doing something unique. Now all I need is Drain Creative SFX [/quote']

In my case, when a player ends up with an "abusive" framework, it's usually because I built it for them, so they could end up with a working version of their character concept! Most of my players really don't have the experience (or the inclination) to delve into the game mechanics the way I do, and create these things; I, on the other hand, love using the HERO System to build stuff (it's a lot like programming! ) so they usually leave it to me in cases like that.

[Nevenall]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

The first word that occured to me was Framebanging

but it's rather early.

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

I think creative use of the system to accomplish a concept goal is more than accetpable, as long as you're working With the GM and not against them, and With the Game and not trying break it.

 

System abuse, to me, is when one is working against the goals of the Game, other Players and GM.

 

As long as you're working with the above breaking, creatively using the system is more than welcome (that includes "abuse" of the system).

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

It occurs to me that if all characters... NPCs and PCs are using the same loose guidelines for frameworks, then even "abusive" constructs aren't necessarily abusive, given that the same standards are being used for all characters.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

We often play fast & loose with EC's. As long as the GM's OK with it, who cares about the various official restrictions on what can and can't go in? Heck, often it's the GM who suggests the "illegal" construct.

 

We joke about some of these things, especially when tying odd powers together (like writing up an EC for Superman, etc) as:

 

"EC: My Character's Powers"

[Thia Halmades]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

I think creative use of the system to accomplish a concept goal is more than accetpable, as long as you're working With the GM and not against them, and With the Game and not trying break it.

 

System abuse, to me, is when one is working against the goals of the Game, other Players and GM.

 

As long as you're working with the above breaking, creatively using the system is more than welcome (that includes "abuse" of the system).

 

This sums up my thoughts exactly; I have one of those remarkably abusive players, and it really frustrates me as a DM when they feel absoulty no need to work within the construct of the defined game itself. None. What. Soever. And it's rough, on me as a writer & architecht, to constantly battle with the player, who's always polite, and always listens, but comes back with the same bizarre build as before all in an attempt to pummel the rules.

 

However, when the framework exists purely to forward the character, and not to be abused (i.e., is used primarily for dramatic effect when appropriate) then I'm all for making the most out of the toolkit.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

I think creative use of the system to accomplish a concept goal is more than accetpable, as long as you're working With the GM and not against them, and With the Game and not trying break it.

 

System abuse, to me, is when one is working against the goals of the Game, other Players and GM.

 

As long as you're working with the above breaking, creatively using the system is more than welcome (that includes "abuse" of the system).

That sounds like a pretty good definition to me, ghost-angel, and one I'd have no problem supporting. Nicely stated.

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

now that its been quoted (twice) I'll not my ability to use bad English and still get my point across ... am I good or what?

 

And thank you, I was pretty much agreeing with Zornwil, albeit without being so verbose

[zornwil]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

now that its been quoted (twice) I'll not my ability to use bad English and still get my point across ... am I good or what?

 

And thank you, I was pretty much agreeing with Zornwil, albeit without being so verbose

Well, I'm no Sean, but I try.

 

(Actually I'm probably more verbose than Sean or at least on the same level)

[Gary]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

I think creative use of the system to accomplish a concept goal is more than accetpable, as long as you're working With the GM and not against them, and With the Game and not trying break it.

 

System abuse, to me, is when one is working against the goals of the Game, other Players and GM.

 

As long as you're working with the above breaking, creatively using the system is more than welcome (that includes "abuse" of the system).

 

 

I would agree for the most part, with the caveat that if the player or GM really want a cool (but expensive) effect, the GM should simply award more points to the player and build it properly, rather than creating an ultra-cheesy build.

 

However, if everyone is allowe equal access to said build, then by definition it's no longer abuse of the system. It has now become an official GM house rule.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

During my last regular campaign, in 1999, we were between 300-350 points, and the brick was built on something like 600 points. Because he didn't go out of his way to show up the other PCs, it worked.

 

The same can be said about frameworks- as long as the player is mature enough to play within the team concept, no framework construction is really abusive.

[CourtFool]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

However' date=' if everyone is allowe equal access to said build, then by definition it's no longer abuse of the system. It has now become an official GM house rule.[/quote']

 

I would agree, however, I can see a problem with that. Say we allow everyone to put Characteristics in an Elemental Control. It is not unbalancing, since everyone can do it, but now we are favoring flat stats (or at least a very rigid plateau) as opposed to allowing a single high stat. There is nothing preventing the genius from having a high INT and not boosting his other stats, but it would be discouraged.

[zornwil]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

I really don't have much trouble with chars in ECs, especially if they're linked physical ones.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Good Word for "Abusive" Framework Uses

 

I've been on holiday, so I'm probably unnecessarily mellow, but I agree with the underlying sentiments of the chorus, so ably exprssed by both zornwil and ghost-angel, amongst others.

 

To be an abusive framework, or use of rules or whatever, then someone has to be abused, be it the GM or another player. I tend to imagine the potential abuse of rule bending, but frankly thre are so many potential abuses without bending the rules at all that it is a pretty pointless exercise.

 

I'm going to keep on doing it though: I think if you are aware of the potential dangers ahead then you will be better able to cope with them when they are upon you, or to avoid them altogether if you wish.

 

Mind you I do not advocate that concept is king:

 

I am pretty sure that even Hero guides our character building along certain paths (dare I call them character classes? I certainly find that most characters, published or otherwise, tend to follow certain patterns which are hard to break within the rules structures) and the underlying 'philosophy' of the rules has guided our concepts of construction, albeit almost invisibly. To the extent that breaking a rule or mis-constructing a framework creates a character that is different without being overwhelming, I think it is our positive duty to rattle the bars, and maybe even escape the cage altogether.

 

...but that 12d6 avld flash/5d6 AE entangle autofire/5d6 RKA NND multple power attack elemental control? I think not, even if your concept is 'undefeatable combat monster'....