Martial Arts versus Powers

[zornwil]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

I still base Martial Maneuvers on STR cost, as in the earliest HERO editions, for superhero games (not heroic). But I do it as each 5 points in maneuvers is a +1/4 Advantage to STR. So a 10 STR character gets it cheap, a 20 STR pays the same price, greater pays proportionally more.

[JmOz]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

One of my favorite MA I ever made combined both a small MP (25 Active Points) of moves and a small MA package (10 Points), Plus a couple of skill levels in DCV. Really made him shine...

 

Seeker

 

Player:

 

Val Char Cost

20/35 STR 10

29 DEX 57

20 CON 20

15 BODY 10

13 INT 3

12 EGO 4

15 PRE 5

12 COM 1

 

10 PD 0

10 ED 0

6 SPD 21

8 REC 0

40 END 0

35 STUN 0

 

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

5"/10" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 131

 

Cost Power

1 Strong Leaper: Leaping +1" (5"/10" forward, 2 1/2"/5" upward)

25 Kung Fu: Multipower, 25-point reserve

1u 1) Martial Strength: +15 STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4)

2u 2) Knife Hand Strikes: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (2d6 w/STR), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points)

2u 3) Piercing Blow : Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6 (1d6+1 w/STR), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points)

1u 4) Ghost Palm: HA +2d6, Affects Desol One Special Effect of Desolidification (spirits) (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) (22 Active Points); HA (-1/2)

2u 5) One Thousand Strikes: HA +2d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1) (25 Active Points); HA (-1/2)

1u 6) The Throwing Strike : HA +2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Double Knockback (+3/4) (22 Active Points); HA (-1/2)

2u 7) Tien-hsueh Strike: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1) (25 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

2u 8) Block: Missile Deflection (Bullets & Shrapnel), Adjacent Hex (+1/2) (22 Active Points)

1u 9) Blinding Strike: Sight Group Flash 3d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

1u 10) Wuxia Leaping: Leaping +2" (5"/10" forward, 2 1/2"/5" upward), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (3 Active Points)

Powers Cost: 41

 

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver

4 Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort

3 Legsweep: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -1 DCV, 5d6 / 8d6 Strike, Target Falls

3 Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, 4d6 / 7d6 +v/5, Target Falls

Martial Arts Cost: 10

 

Cost Skill

10 +2 with DCV

3 Acrobatics 15-

3 Analyze: Combat 12-

3 Breakfall 15-

3 Climbing 15-

3 Contortionist 15-

10 Defense Maneuver I-IV

3 KS: Kung Fu 12-

2 Language: English (fluent conversation)

2 PS: Carpentry 11-

2 PS: Cooking 11-

3 Paramedics 12-

3 Sleight Of Hand 15-

6 WF: Common Martial Arts Melee Weapons, Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons

Skills Cost: 56

 

 

Cost Talent

12 Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED)

Talents Cost: 12

 

Total Character Cost: 250

 

Pts. Disadvantage

10 DF: Asian (Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses; Not Distinctive In Some Cultures)

15 DF: Style (Not Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

10 Hunted: Lloyd Gang 8- (As Pow, Harshly Punish)

20 Hunted: Imperial Guardsman 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, Harshly Punish)

15 Psych. Lim.: Code Vs. Killing (Common, Strong)

20 Psych. Lim.: Code of the Wuxia (Very Common, Strong)

10 Psych. Lim.: Looking for Child (Common, Moderate)

Disadvantage Points: 100

Base Points: 150

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

 

Before I get hammered for the DF: Asian, it should be noted that this character is in the old west, where some descrimination was going to be common place, as the character would be more vulnerable to it than most I gave the disad, woman also took a similar one...

 

Background: The Legend of the Seeker is told among the Chinese imigrants in the west. The story as it is told is this: Back in China there was a boy who lived a poor but honest life for his first 12 years living with his uncle after his parents had died. His life changed forever when he saw a boy his age being attacked, his uncle had tought him Kung Fu and he used it to save the other lad.

 

The lad thanked him, and insisted that he have dinner with his parents, successful innkeepers in the city. This was the begining of a life long friendship. At 16 he was given a job at the inn and life was good for a year. Then his friend's parents introduced them to his friend's wife to be (An arranged marriage). The man who would become the seeker fell in love the minute he saw her, what was worse she loved him as well, and the friend did not.

 

The solution was easy, the marrige happened as planned, but every night she would sneek down the hall to be with her true love, with her husbands blessing (He was in love with a maid in the inn). This proceeded for a couple of years, until she got pregnant. The thought of seeing his child raised by another even his friend, made him run. After a couple of months however he returned to find the inn burned down, after asking around he found that the family had left for america after the fire to try to start a new life.

 

Now the man called Seeker looks for his family in America...

 

Personality: While he takes his quest very seriously most of the time he is a fun loving individual with a devil may care attitude. However he is dedicated to helping people in any way that he can

 

Quote: "I will help you"

[Gary]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

Here's my alternative for martial arts:

 

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=707636#post707636

[Dust Raven]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

If you check Steve's various answers' date=' yes, Martial DCs for unarmed Martial Maneuver add to base damage, and in fact you may also note this is true EVEN with just a 1d6 Advantaged HA these simply add on. So you can exploit something here. However, I am allowing this with the proviso you have to make a DEX roll at -1 per DC greater than the doubling from that base WITHOUT Martial DCs.[/quote']

 

I thought it was clear that you can't more than double the damge of an Advantaged HA. If added damge more than doubles the DCs, the Advantge is lost. Doesn't matter if it's STR or a maneuver that's giving it to you.

 

This is different than Advantaged STR though, which you can't add damage to at all without losing the Advantage for the attack.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

I thought it was clear that you can't more than double the damge of an Advantaged HA. If added damge more than doubles the DCs, the Advantge is lost. Doesn't matter if it's STR or a maneuver that's giving it to you.

 

This is different than Advantaged STR though, which you can't add damage to at all without losing the Advantage for the attack.

 

5ER martial DCs are ludicrously generous.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

Suppress' date=' Boecv, self only... ?[/quote']

 

That'll be the one

[Dust Raven]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

In general, I prefer Martial Arts for heroic games or agents and the occasional super with some skill in hand to hand combat, and Powers for wuxia, superheroic games and while martial arts games. My favorite "generic" martial art for a super game is a Multipower with Desolidification (dodge), EB No Range (Strike), Entangle Based On EGO (attack is OCV vs DCV, Paralysis Strike), EB NND No Range (Nerve Strike) and STR No Figured Characteristics, Only To Grab/Throw (Grabs/Throws).

 

Howdy HEROphiles,

 

One of the players in our group wants to make a Martial Artist-type character, and he was asking me "What's the difference between spending points on Martial Arts or just buying those attacks as Powers?" (probably as a part of a multipower...)

 

I'm still relatively new to HERO, so I have difficulty formulating my response as concisely as I'd like, and there are certain aspects I'm not 100% sure of myself. Would anyone be willing to clarify some of the reasons you might take one over the other? Or how you might pick a balance of both?

 

it seems to me that Martial Arts are good for enhancing a character's options in combat, and tend to cost less than Powers, use less END, and especially when combined with "Use Art with X(Blades, Chains, etc) provide for some flexibility during a melee.

 

Powers are good for achieving very specific results: A Whirlwind attack that knocks your enemies down (Autofire or AoE), Esoteric Pressure Point Locks (Entangles), or even Ch'i Blasts (EB, etc). But once you buy a Power, it always works one way, (unless you buy Variable Advantage) so you lose some flexibility, but you tend to have more powerful abilities.

 

But then, I have seen some writeups where ALL Martial Arts abilities are written up as Powers.

 

oh, and if you buy a MA Manuever, Say "Martial Strike" can / do you combine it with a HA Power that you built?

 

Thanks much for any and all comments & suggestions!

 

JadeAvenger

[Dust Raven]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

5ER martial DCs are ludicrously generous.

 

Then I'm a bit confused as to how. I know they add to base damage, but Advantages don't carry over with them. How is that ludicrously generous?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

Then I'm a bit confused as to how. I know they add to base damage' date=' but Advantages don't carry over with them. How is that ludicrously generous?[/quote']

 

I agree with Dust Raven.

 

The base-damage rule is talking about unarmed martial arts. There is no specific ruling under advantaged HA's stating that the base level of the HA itself would be increased by added DC's from martial arts. It implies that the extra damage from MA's (maneuver and extra DC's) would be added the same way that STR would (that is up to equal the amount of advantaged HA damage).

 

see also:

http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/revisedrules/COMBAT%20AND%20ADVENTURING.htm

 

HM

[BNakagawa]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

Sure you can. See UMA p104

 

Those 'rules' are

 

1: not in 5th ed.

 

2: associated with a STOP sign.

 

3: described as strictly optional.

 

4: Out Of Print.

 

When discussing system mechanics, I tend to ignore anything that falls into more than one of those categories.

[zornwil]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

Then I'm a bit confused as to how. I know they add to base damage' date=' but Advantages don't carry over with them. How is that ludicrously generous?[/quote']

I'll find the quote from Steve. He indicated that, and I think he is correct, "by the rules", you can buy a 1d6 HA Armor Piercing Penetrating Double Knockback, add 20 Martial DCs, and they all get the benefit of that advantage.

[zornwil]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

Here's a reference -

 

http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35429&highlight=martial+arts+advantage

[zornwil]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

I agree with Dust Raven.

 

The base-damage rule is talking about unarmed martial arts. There is no specific ruling under advantaged HA's stating that the base level of the HA itself would be increased by added DC's from martial arts. It implies that the extra damage from MA's (maneuver and extra DC's) would be added the same way that STR would (that is up to equal the amount of advantaged HA damage).

 

see also:

http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/revisedrules/COMBAT%20AND%20ADVENTURING.htm

 

HM

The reference above is not the only example Steve has commented on. No matter how small or how advantaged the HA, Martial DCs add directly at full "face value' and unlimited.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

The reference above is not the only example Steve has commented on. No matter how small or how advantaged the HA' date=' Martial DCs add directly at full "face value' and unlimited.[/quote']

 

I stand corrected.

 

I guess I'll pay attention to this one (Martial Arts interacting with advantaged HA's) in the same way that I do the current Find Weakness and Hit Location Rules.

 

HM

[Dust Raven]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

Here's a reference -

 

http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35429&highlight=martial+arts+advantage

 

I stand corrected it seems.

 

A good thing I don't consider the FAQ nor Steve's interpretation of the rules to be considered rules themselves. His statement above clearly contradicts the rules presented in the book.

[zornwil]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

I stand corrected it seems.

 

A good thing I don't consider the FAQ nor Steve's interpretation of the rules to be considered rules themselves. His statement above clearly contradicts the rules presented in the book.

Well, at the risk of haggling, but from reading the section in 5ER, specifically, it seems to say the same thing regarding adding Martial DCs.

 

"Any Extra DCs that increase an unarmed Martial Maneuver's damage count as base DCs." coupled with the section on how Martial Maneuvers add to Advantaged attacks without regard to those Advantages (i.e., they add straight on top).

 

And to be fair, he's interpreting the book he wrote.

 

That being said, I'm not suggesting you're necessarily wrong to call the logic flawed and that it shouldn't be a rule.

[zornwil]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

See also - http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35533

 

In which case Steve is fairly firm about how he sees it proceeding from the book, even though he's brief. I don't see anything in the book that seems counter to what Steve says.

 

That being said, I think it's a dangerous rule as is. Whether curbing it by doubling or curbing it by some other method, it's probably in order. As I mentioned elsewhere, I impose basically a DEX RSR on these constructs.

[Markdoc]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

And this kind of silliness is why I prefer buy martial arts as powers!

 

I agree while Steve/ the rules appear to be consistent on this, it is one of the things that when I noticed it, got red-pencilled in my book. Adding to base damage is bad (especially when martial arts are used with KA's in heroic level games which is what I mostly run) - allowing them to be added without pro-rating is not only bad, but makes no sense at all in the context of Hero system.

 

cheers, Mark

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

Sorry, someone said UMA (5th) is out of print - does any one know why? Is it just 'out of its current run' or is it flat out of print? That's an important question, because I don't want to pick it up if it isn't going to do me any good. That being said.

 

Good morning.

 

I think I understand that the current state of the discussion is that an Advantaged HA using MArts rules can go beyond the doubling rule, yeah? That you can exceed the base damage of your attack? My primary question would be, what's the base? If STR is the base, then there's an extent to which this makes sense, because if you're using NCM than you'll never have more than 8d6 HA or a 2d6 & 1/2d6 HKA. Yucky.

 

However, I agree with Markdoc that the whole thing is much more easily solvable buying it as powers (whether in or out of a framework) because in a sense, especially in a Wuxia campaign, that's what they are. See Jade Empire for a decent example of this 'in action.' If you haven't played Jade Empire, rent it, because the system is flawed and there are a couple of game-breaking combos in there that once you have them, it's almost impossible to not use them. Kind of frustrating, because I was hoping it would be more challenging.

 

Where was I? Oh yes.

 

I just built a 250 MArtist based on Street Fighter because those are my roots; I purchased his Ch'i as an EC, and built in some standard moves as special effects (An HA with Autofire that acted as his "spinning kick" - for those who've played Street Fighter, this is a standard Ryu/Ken/Chun-Li manuever), a 4d6 RKA for his Shinjin Hadoken and a 12d6 Autofire 2" Hex Radius HA for his Shinjin Hadoiken-Drugan (sp). Worked out nicely. Also had a nice straight 8d6 Hand Attack, but hadn't figured out how to build his Shoryuken in a way that I liked yet.

 

A little super leap, a little Ch'i healing, he was ready to rock. And built the whole mess in NCM. With that build, how do y'all think that UMA or Steve would've interpreted the construction? Valid? Invalid? Good? What would you guys do for the Dragon Punch?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

Sorry' date=' someone said UMA (5th) is out of print - does any one know why? Is it just 'out of its current run' or is it flat [i']out of print[/i]? That's an important question, because I don't want to pick it up if it isn't going to do me any good.

And why wouldn't it do you any good? It still has useful information.

 

BTW: UMA is available as a PDF in the Online Store for $16. While Hard Copy may not come back into print due to lack of demand the Soft Copy will always be available.

 

Dust Raven: Steve doesn't contradict the book with regards to Martial Damage Classes, they add directly to Base Damage, regardless of Advantages. That applies only to unarmed Martial Maneuvers.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

PDF doesn't do me any good without a PC in my house. I need a nice, normal hard copy of the b3wk.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

PDF doesn't do me any good without a PC in my house. I need a nice' date=' normal hard copy of the b3wk.[/quote']

Buy it and print it at work.

[Lucius]

Ultimate Martial Artist

 

The Ultimate Martial Artist is out of print??!

 

I'm sure glad I got my copy!

 

Lack of demand? How can there be a lack of demand for it?

 

Is any of the same information in other books I don't know about?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Let's see, Palindromedary Riding Skill, Animal Handler: Palindromedary.......

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Martial Arts versus Powers

 

Hi all,

 

I was doing some research in my well worn copy of UMA today and found this usefull tidbit on page 101.

 

Extra DCs add to damage from martial arts maneuvers. They add both to armed and unarmed martial arts maneuvers. If the maneuver is a fist punch, Extra DCs apply; if the maneuver is a Martial Strike requiring the use of a sword, Extra DCs apply.

They do not add to any other sort of damage: not to damage used with non-martial arts maneuvers, not to unarmed attacks bought with the HA or HKA Powers, and so forth.

Seems like a case of SFX being very important.

 

BTW, I am not sure if any of this was changed with 5ER. I wonder if the new Combat Handbook addresses this at all?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Ultimate Martial Artist

 

The Ultimate Martial Artist is out of print??!

 

I'm sure glad I got my copy!

 

Lack of demand? How can there be a lack of demand for it?

 

Is any of the same information in other books I don't know about?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Let's see, Palindromedary Riding Skill, Animal Handler: Palindromedary.......

I am confused about this too...

I consider UMA to be a VITAL sourcebook, and when I discovered it was OOP, I immediately went and hunted down a copy, even tho I figured that it was mostly unchanged from 4th Ed.

IF the pertinent info was reproduced in the Comabt Handbook, then I can see how it could be considered reduntant tho, especially with Ninja Hero also floating around. I was a bit disappointed that the two got split up. UMA could've gone into a LOT more detail about mutliple genre applications of Martial Arts tha they did.

 

ON the original topic of the thread... I like to use MA rather than powers, but I agree that things have gotten a bit wonked, balance-wise.