JadeAvenger Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Howdy HEROphiles, One of the players in our group wants to make a Martial Artist-type character, and he was asking me "What's the difference between spending points on Martial Arts or just buying those attacks as Powers?" (probably as a part of a multipower...) I'm still relatively new to HERO, so I have difficulty formulating my response as concisely as I'd like, and there are certain aspects I'm not 100% sure of myself. Would anyone be willing to clarify some of the reasons you might take one over the other? Or how you might pick a balance of both? it seems to me that Martial Arts are good for enhancing a character's options in combat, and tend to cost less than Powers, use less END, and especially when combined with "Use Art with X(Blades, Chains, etc) provide for some flexibility during a melee. Powers are good for achieving very specific results: A Whirlwind attack that knocks your enemies down (Autofire or AoE), Esoteric Pressure Point Locks (Entangles), or even Ch'i Blasts (EB, etc). But once you buy a Power, it always works one way, (unless you buy Variable Advantage) so you lose some flexibility, but you tend to have more powerful abilities. But then, I have seen some writeups where ALL Martial Arts abilities are written up as Powers. oh, and if you buy a MA Manuever, Say "Martial Strike" can / do you combine it with a HA Power that you built? Thanks much for any and all comments & suggestions! JadeAvenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers Welcome, Jade Avenger! I think the answer may be along the lines of 'it depends'... MArts are good at some things that powers are not good at, and I'm thinking throws here, and certain types of multiple limb grab. More straightforward damage oriented MArts can probably best be simulated with powers. To an extent it depends what you want to spend, as, after a point, there is little utility in further expenditure on MA Manouvres: once you have throw, block, dodge, Off Strike, Def Strike, and a cople of wrasslin' moves you're tapped out, and you'll be spending on increased DCs and skill levels. Of course if you have enough points you can do both.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers You can combine Hand Attacks and Martial Arts. MArts a good at simulating someone's who's skilled at combat, Powers are good for someone who is inherently, well, powerful. Both have merits - I'd just buy MAs as MAs because why bother recreating all those effects when the work is done for you - and cheaply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers Martial Arts are also END-cheaper on a DC for DC basis, which may be a relevant consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers what they said and... Martial Arts can be used by normal humans with NCM (normal characteristic maximums) to reach near superhero levels of damage and effect. Attacks using them always do less knockback than an equivalent amount of damage from straight STR for example. Their use also assumes that the character is not grabbed or entangled except for the obvious exception (escape). HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers Hyper-Man is quite right: you never run into a damage ceiling for doubling if you apply extra DCs to martial arts - they don't count in the calculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadeAvenger Posted December 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers Very nice! That answers my questions, I think. Thanks for the rapid responses I'll pass this thread onto my buddy... -JA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers Hyper-Man is quite right: you never run into a damage ceiling for doubling if you apply extra DCs to martial arts - they don't count in the calculation. Or, more accurately, they count as Base Damage, so they actually increase the cap for the Doubling Rule. This and the fact that extra damage from Martial Arts ignores Advantages has the potential for creating some devastating attacks at low point values, so you should be a little wary of the use of Martial Arts with HAs and Advantaged attacks in general. If the player isn't attempting to powergame then this rarely comes up as an issue, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers Wise word there: I never really did understand why it wors that way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers Wise word there: I never really did understand why it wors that way.... Yeah. I suspect it is so that you can build a martial artist who can be pretty effective without being incredibly strong (because Str usually supplies the Base Damage) or having superhuman powers (especially if you count the HA Power). The image of a frail old man who can whip out a toothpick and beat you senseless tends to be a rather popular one (and isn't completely without merit, either; some strength is necessary and helpful, but the body can be used in amazing ways even when it can't lift mountains). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers Yeah. I suspect it is so that you can build a martial artist who can be pretty effective without being incredibly strong (because Str usually supplies the Base Damage) or having superhuman powers (especially if you count the HA Power). The image of a frail old man who can whip out a toothpick and beat you senseless tends to be a rather popular one (and isn't completely without merit' date=' either; some strength is necessary and helpful, but the body can be used in amazing ways even when it can't lift mountains).[/quote'] it is not just the ramped up damage - I can sort of understand that - its the fact that you then get ramped up advantages for free that I was a little muzzy on the reasoning behind. I'm sure there is a good reason, that has been well thought through, though.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers I was pretty sure Advantaged Attacks (STR or HAs) couldn't be more than doubled with MAs... but I'm too lazy to break out the book and look for it. I need the Combat Handbook for sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers I was pretty sure Advantaged Attacks (STR or HAs) couldn't be more than doubled with MAs... but I'm too lazy to break out the book and look for it. I need the Combat Handbook for sure... You are quite right, but there is no limit on how much they can be increased by 4 point increased DCs, so a character with 10 points of armour piercing strength can do 4d6 AP with a martial strike OR an offensive strike (losing the top 2 DCs) BUT if they bought 10 increased DCs for their martial arts for 40 points they can do 14d6 AP. All for only 1 END. Funny old game (assuming I have this right: I'm pretty sure i do) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers You are quite right, but there is no limit on how much they can be increased by 4 point increased DCs, so a character with 10 points of armour piercing strength can do 4d6 AP with a martial strike OR an offensive strike (losing the top 2 DCs) BUT if they bought 10 increased DCs for their martial arts for 40 points they can do 14d6 AP. All for only 1 END. Funny old game (assuming I have this right: I'm pretty sure i do) You have it right. Except with the +10 DCs the Offensive Strike can actually do 16d6, and either maneuver could increase to 24d6 (double 12d6) with CSLs and such (at least by default; the GM is well within his/her rights to smack that one down somehow IMO). EDIT: Oh, but remember this still shouldn't go over a game's DC limits, if it has any; this may be good cause to install some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers You have it right. Except with the +10 DCs the Offensive Strike can actually do 16d6' date=' and either maneuver could increase to 24d6 (double 12d6) with CSLs and such (at least by default; the GM is well within his/her rights to smack that one down somehow IMO).[/quote'] ....because it adds to base damage: I keep on supressing the knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers ....because it adds to base damage: I keep on supressing the knowledge. Yeah. I know. BTW, I edited to add a P.S. above. Sorry about that. Bad habit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers Hold on a sec... Did this change in 5ER? In 5E, it specifically that if STR has an Advantage on it, any damage added to it (even from Martial Arts or other maneuvers) caused the entire attack to ignore the Advantage. So a character with 20 STR that is AP and an Offensive Strike can either to a normal Strike which will be 4d6 AP, or an Offensive Strike that will be 8d6 (no AP). In 5E, the rule if found on page 272, midway down the second column. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers ok, pg 405 - the Extra DCs from Martial Maneuvers does not add to Base Damage - for these STR is the Base Damage, Martial Maneuvers can't more than double that. the example given is a 15 STR using Offensive Strike (STR + 4 DCs) for a total of 6D6 (double the damage of base STR). Page 406 adds in DCs for Martial Maneuvers - these add directly to Base Damage for Unarmed Martial Maneuvers. The example they give is Killing Strike (2DCs) plus 2DCs for a base of 1D6, which can be doubled to 2D6 with STR, CSLs, etc... I would assume then +1 DC as a Martial Maneuver, with 15 STR (3 DCs) using Offensive Strike (STR + 4 DCs) can do the full 8D6 Damage. The passage Dust Raven quotes is on 5ER pg.409 and is the same text. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers If you check Steve's various answers, yes, Martial DCs for unarmed Martial Maneuver add to base damage, and in fact you may also note this is true EVEN with just a 1d6 Advantaged HA these simply add on. So you can exploit something here. However, I am allowing this with the proviso you have to make a DEX roll at -1 per DC greater than the doubling from that base WITHOUT Martial DCs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers Howdy HEROphiles, One of the players in our group wants to make a Martial Artist-type character, and he was asking me "What's the difference between spending points on Martial Arts or just buying those attacks as Powers?" (probably as a part of a multipower...) Martial arts maneuvers are cheaper, but you can't put power limitations or advantages on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers ....because it adds to base damage: I keep on supressing the knowledge. Suppress, Boecv, self only... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers Martial arts maneuvers are cheaper' date=' but you can't put power limitations or advantages on them.[/quote'] Sure you can. See UMA p104 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers Wise word there: I never really did understand why it wors that way.... Well, I've always thought it offered a way for agents to honestly threaten a hero. When Dr IronPants has 20 rPD/rED its gonna take some juice for your average police guy, martial artist or even flocks of specially trained snipers to get through his armour. It also does help to enable some of the wuxia effects we have seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers Actually I don't really like the standard martial arts rules - there are too many exceptions and 'gimme's built in and you can get some really wierd builds. So I encourage (but don't require) players to build martal arts with powers instead. Makes life easier all round - especially for wuxia games. Linkage: http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/martialarts.html cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 Re: Martial Arts versus Powers Martial arts maneuvers are cheaper' date=' but you can't put power limitations or advantages on them.[/quote'] You can, I think, but you don't need to, if the base strength has an advantage (or a small MP of naked advantages if you really want to take the mickey) martial arts (and damage classes) 'adopt' the advantages for free. Thus you can buy (for example) martial arts for 10 points, including (say) a martial strike (+2DC). Now assuming you buy area effect (radius) personal immunity NND does BODY 0 END and, say, autofire/5 as a naked advantage on your 5 strength for 24 points, and then blow another 24 points on +8 DCs with martial arts, your punch will AVERAGE 193 stun and 55 BODY against everyone around you, and all for 58 points and a cost of 0 END, so you can do it all day. Now that sounds like a duly considered rule to me. Balanced. Finely crafted. These wuxia games everyone keeps thinking this rule is good for must be very SHORT.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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