Combat Skill Levels

[mayapuppies]

Sir Whateverhisnameis listed in another thread has the following CSL's:

 

+2 with HTH Combat

+1 with All Combat; Only While Mounted

+2 with Blades

+2 with Lance

CV: 4

Penalty Skill Levels: +2 vs. armor penalties to DCV with Heavy Armor

Penalty Skill Levels: +2 vs. OCV Penalty of being Mounted with All Attacks

 

 

In my Superhero game I let people add CSL's to OCV or DCV as they wished. As I was skimming through the combat section in FRED I realized this may not be accurate.

 

Can CSL's be arbitrarily placed into defense or offense or are they assumed to all be offensive unless specifically bought for DCV?

[Edsel]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

2 point CSLs are OCV only as are the optional 1 point CSLs (listed in Dark Champions, for example).

 

3 point CSLs are generally always OCV levels, but I can think of one exception of the top of my head. A 3 point CSL with martial arts can be used to boost the DCV of a maneuver.

 

Generally the CSL must be of the 5 or 8 point variety before it truely becomes flexable enought to use either way. However with the 5 point levels there are still some qualifiers.

 

For instance a 5 point CSL can be specified as either a +1 OCV or +1 DCV which obviously locks it to whichever it purpose it was bought.

 

A 5 point level such as +1 with HtH combat can be applied to OCV or DCV but only in HtH combat. It could not boost your DCV verses a ranged attack.

 

A final exception to all of this is the maneuver Martial Dodge. As I understand it a 5 point level (+1 with HtH combat) could be applied to its DCV and applied even verses ranged attacks (I may be wrong about that though).

 

Wish I could research this better for you but I am up against the firewall at work getting ready to go up.

[Markdoc]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

Mostly what he said, with the exceptionof 3 pt levels:

 

2 pt lvls - OCV only, and one type of attack only

 

3 pt levels - one type of attack (close group), but can be switched between OCV or DCV (or + to DC). Exactly under what conditions it can be used for DCV are not well-defined. If you have (for example) +1 with pistols (tight group), one GM might allow you the DCV only when you were actually shooting/being shot at - another might let you use it anytime you were using a pistol. I'm fairly strict about it, so IMG 3 pts in Swords is only good for DCV when you are using a sword in HTH, for example. Holding the sword when you are being shot at does not help. A 3 pt level in Bows would help you shoot (OCV) or dodge incoming (DCV) but would be useless in HTH - unless you specified "closeup and personal bow-fu" in which case you could get the bonuses when using a bow in HTH or at point blank range, but not over longer distances. Basically I treat them like 5 point levels, but slightly more limited.

 

5 pt levels can be either:

OCV (all OCV) or

DCV (all DCV) or

OCV or DCV in HTH, or

OCV and DCV with and against ranged combat

 

8 pt levels - whatever you want to do with OCV or DCV

 

cheers, Mark

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

And you can flip those around as necessary on your phase? At the beginning of your phase? So long as during each full phase all applicable CSLs are only used once within their respective position, yes?

 

I buy a 2 pt. Greatsword CSL. It's only good for smacking people with my Greatsword. Ever. I cannot use it to smack someone with a staff, or a katana, or even a bastard sword. Greatsword only. Yes? No?

 

I buy a 3 pt. Sword CSL. Would that apply to all sword like edged weapons, or would a One-Hand, Two-Handed focus group be appropriate? So, all two handed swords, or "all two-handed edged weapons?" What would make the most sense, or would simply calling it "all swords" be simplest? I can use this for either OCV or DCV, and can change it at the beginning of my phase, or only on Segment 12?

 

Further, said 3pt. CSL is only applicable in circumstances where it would reasonably apply; unless we're playing in a setting for Equilibrium, and even then it would be difficult to make the argument without Martial Arts thrown in there. If I have the Deflection power, and use my sword to knock away arrows, would my CSL apply to my defense then? Pardon the absurdist example, just working on expanding my grasp of rules & options.

 

When you say "+DC" you're talking about a 3pt. level being able to pump a damage class by one, yes? And that then modifies the Base Damage instead of the Total Damage, yes? So if I pump my Sword from 1 1/2d6 to 2d6, the total amount of my applicable strength improves as well, yes?

 

Sorry to pound on you Markdoc, but I figured you'd be able to answer the mess. Also... is a 3pt. CSL simply assigned, and a 5pt. CSL can be flipped? Is that the piece to this I'm missing? So for 3pts. you can permanently improve your chances of dodging/parrying/etc. in combat by raising your DCV while wielding a single weapon/weapon from a group?

 

And an 8 point is whatever you want, whenever you want, yes? And it can be freely moved?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

And you can flip those around as necessary on your phase? At the beginning of your phase? So long as during each full phase all applicable CSLs are only used once within their respective position, yes?

 

I buy a 2 pt. Greatsword CSL. It's only good for smacking people with my Greatsword. Ever. I cannot use it to smack someone with a staff, or a katana, or even a bastard sword. Greatsword only. Yes? No?

 

I buy a 3 pt. Sword CSL. Would that apply to all sword like edged weapons, or would a One-Hand, Two-Handed focus group be appropriate? So, all two handed swords, or "all two-handed edged weapons?" What would make the most sense, or would simply calling it "all swords" be simplest? I can use this for either OCV or DCV, and can change it at the beginning of my phase, or only on Segment 12?

 

Further, said 3pt. CSL is only applicable in circumstances where it would reasonably apply; unless we're playing in a setting for Equilibrium, and even then it would be difficult to make the argument without Martial Arts thrown in there. If I have the Deflection power, and use my sword to knock away arrows, would my CSL apply to my defense then? Pardon the absurdist example, just working on expanding my grasp of rules & options.

 

When you say "+DC" you're talking about a 3pt. level being able to pump a damage class by one, yes? And that then modifies the Base Damage instead of the Total Damage, yes? So if I pump my Sword from 1 1/2d6 to 2d6, the total amount of my applicable strength improves as well, yes?

 

Sorry to pound on you Markdoc, but I figured you'd be able to answer the mess. Also... is a 3pt. CSL simply assigned, and a 5pt. CSL can be flipped? Is that the piece to this I'm missing? So for 3pts. you can permanently improve your chances of dodging/parrying/etc. in combat by raising your DCV while wielding a single weapon/weapon from a group?

 

And an 8 point is whatever you want, whenever you want, yes? And it can be freely moved?

Once a CSL is designated in a Phase it is there until the begining of your next Phase.

 

you cannot switch a CSL to OCV at the begining of your phase and DCV at the end.

 

That goes for any level of CSL.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

So they all move at beginning of your phase (your stage in the round). That's what I thought, because it was the only thing that made sense, but now I know.

 

Thanks!

 

~DEM

[mayapuppies]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

Thanks for the help everyone!

[Markdoc]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

And you can flip those around as necessary on your phase? At the beginning of your phase? So long as during each full phase all applicable CSLs are only used once within their respective position' date=' yes?[/quote']

 

Already answered, but - beginning of your action. That applies to all levels.

 

I buy a 2 pt. Greatsword CSL. It's only good for smacking people with my Greatsword. Ever. I cannot use it to smack someone with a staff' date=' or a katana, or even a bastard sword. Greatsword only. Yes? No?[/quote']

 

Correct. If you're a cuddly GM you might allow it to apply to apply to very similar things like the Bastard sword, but I don't - they are cheap enough as it is.

 

I buy a 3 pt. Sword CSL. Would that apply to all sword like edged weapons' date=' or would a One-Hand, Two-Handed focus group be appropriate? So, all two handed swords, or "all two-handed edged weapons?" What would make the most sense, or would simply calling it "all swords" be simplest? I can use this for either OCV or DCV, and can change it at the beginning of my phase, or only on Segment 12?[/quote']

 

Again, technically, "swords" means 1 handed, two handed swords, but not, say a Rhomphaia. You could say if your prefer "sword-like edged weapons" or decide that it only applied to one handed swords or two handed/hand and a half swords. Me, I simply allow all swords both for simplicity and because I figure it has more to do with a general appreciation of slashing and stabbing than the precise type of blade. Oh, and as noted - must be assigned at the beginning of your action, but could be OCV, DCV or +1DC.

 

Further' date=' said 3pt. CSL is [i']only applicable[/i] in circumstances where it would reasonably apply; unless we're playing in a setting for Equilibrium, and even then it would be difficult to make the argument without Martial Arts thrown in there. If I have the Deflection power, and use my sword to knock away arrows, would my CSL apply to my defense then? Pardon the absurdist example, just working on expanding my grasp of rules & options.

 

This is where it is not clear. My take is "yes, only where reasonably applicable". Technically speaking, the swatting arrows away thing is a power, so your sword CSL would not apply: the sword is only a special effect. However, a block against an HTH attack is standard OCV vs OCV and your 3 pt level would apply there, so in this case, I might allow it.

 

When you say "+DC" you're talking about a 3pt. level being able to pump a damage class by one' date=' yes? And that then modifies the [i']Base Damage[/i] instead of the Total Damage, yes? So if I pump my Sword from 1 1/2d6 to 2d6, the total amount of my applicable strength improves as well, yes?

 

No - I'm not 100% certain, but I believe added DC simply add like STR - you still can't pump a dagger up to 3d6 HKA. HOWEVER - there is nothing stopping you buying your very own 1 1/2 d6 HKA, limiting it with OAF, dagger and caled it "really deadly with daggers" if you want a lethal dagger fighter.

 

Sorry to pound on you Markdoc' date=' but I figured you'd be able to answer the mess. Also... is a 3pt. CSL simply [i']assigned[/i], and a 5pt. CSL can be flipped? Is that the piece to this I'm missing? So for 3pts. you can permanently improve your chances of dodging/parrying/etc. in combat by raising your DCV while wielding a single weapon/weapon from a group?

 

And an 8 point is whatever you want, whenever you want, yes? And it can be freely moved?

 

No, as noted all levels have to be assigned (so you can't use any of them if stunned, surprised or asleep). All of them can be used for OCV or DCV or +1DC except the two pointer : the different points values simply restrict the situations under which you can use them at all.

 

You can think of them as:

8 points - any combat

5 points - any one aspect of combat

3 points - any one aspect of combat with a specific weapon or attack type

2 points - one single, specific type of attack.

 

cheers, Mark

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

Can you buy the 2 point CSL with Strike? (seems munchkiny)

 

Also, the 3 point CSLs, you can't take one with a HtH weapon and have the DCV apply against ranged weapons? I see it sort of like you are dodging around to make yourself harder to hit. I could definitely understand it working against other HtH weapons, you are actively parrying, riposting, or the like (in the words of the great Steven Long). Under this logic, an archer would gain the DCV bonus of the CSL against HtH weapons too, he's dodging about to avoid getting hit. This makes things much simpler but maybe it's a bit overpowered. Perhaps the great Steven Long could shed some light on this.

[Roland]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

Can you buy the 2 point CSL with Strike? (seems munchkiny)

 

Yes, it would be munchkiny. Fantasy Hero anticipates the munchkiny question and issues a mostly negative response (see page 87). It is suggested that, for a 2-point CSL, one should narrow the applicability of the CSL by weapon class or circumstance, since Strike is the standard generic attack in the fantasy genre.

 

As for your other question, a 3-point CSL with a HtH weapon should only be applied in ways that are appropriate for that weapon. I can't think of a HtH weapon that would help you block or dodge a missile attack (if you want to do that you should buy Missile Deflection). However, if you took a 3-point CSL with your shield, I think you could make a case for applying the CSL against any attack the shield applies to (assuming you are allocating the CSL to DCV, and not to OCV for a shield bash).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

Can you buy the 2 point CSL with Strike? (seems munchkiny)

 

Also, the 3 point CSLs, you can't take one with a HtH weapon and have the DCV apply against ranged weapons? I see it sort of like you are dodging around to make yourself harder to hit. I could definitely understand it working against other HtH weapons, you are actively parrying, riposting, or the like (in the words of the great Steven Long). Under this logic, an archer would gain the DCV bonus of the CSL against HtH weapons too, he's dodging about to avoid getting hit. This makes things much simpler but maybe it's a bit overpowered. Perhaps the great Steven Long could shed some light on this.

The full details of CSLs are outlined on 5ER pg.53-54

 

2 points CSLs may be purchases with a single maneuver such as Strike (in answer: yes.)

 

3 Pt CSLs grant DCV, but generally not against an different attack type: HtH 3 Point CSLs generally do not grant you DCV vs Ranged Attacks (most GMs play this way), However they can grant DCV vs a similar attack. A 3 Point CSL with "Swords" will allow you to apply your CSL as OCV, DCV or DCs as long as you're using your Sword actively, like I said most GMs will not grant you the DCV bonus vs Ranged Attacks this way. This is, however, an Optional Rule outlined on pg.54 - without this rule a character may add to their DCV with Swords as long they weild a sword vs any attacks.

 

I've yet to see a game where that Optional Rule is not in place though.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

OK, thanks for the info. It makes total sense when I read the optional rule.

 

Basically, CSL's used as DCV can never improve your DCV against ranged attacks. Ranged CSL's, such as "+1 with all ranged", can't be used to raise your DCV.

 

This was always confusing to me in my mind. But, if it's so hard to dodge arrows and bullets, why can you abort to dodge them?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

Correction: 3 pt CSLs gerenally cannot be used to boost DCV vs Ranged Attacks.

 

5pt. CSLs and up defined as DCV Defend against all incoming attacks.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

5pt. CSLs and up defined as DCV Defend against all incoming attacks.

 

OK, so this is mainly to facilitate CSL's taken to represent DCV bonuses due to size? Or should those be 8 point CSL's taken with "only for DCV (-1/2)"?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

Nope. Let me go into specifics...

 

2pt CSLs may be taken as: OCV to a single Maneuver (Strike, etc..) or single weapon (Short Swords).

 

3pt CSLs may be taken as:

+1 with Swords - this can be OCV/DCV or Damage Classes (takes 2 CSLs per +1 DC), as defined each Phase, you don't have to choose at time of purchase; With the Optional Rule in effect the DCV Bonus does not count vs Ranged Attacks.

+1 with Bows - with the Optional Rule in effect this is a +1 OCV or + Damage Classes (again, take 2 CSLs per +1 DC).

 

5pt CSLs may be taken as:

+1 to HtH attacks - either OCV, DCV or DCs

+1 to Ranged attacks - either OCV, DCV or DCs

again the Optional Rule will prevent DCV bonus unless specifically bought as DCV: +1 DCV - however these can not be applied to OCV or DCs if they are specifically defined as DCV CSLs.

 

8pt CSL applies to anything (OCV, DCV or DCs any type of attack), defined at the start of the characters Phase and continuing until their next Phase.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

Ahhh OK, I see it now in the book. For some reason, this is a lot to take in with just one reading. Now, I just have to convey it to my players. That should be a good time.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

Glad to be of assistance, feel free to use my example if it helped.

[Frenchman]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

I thought it took two CSLs to add +1 DC?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

I thought it took two CSLs to add +1 DC?

It does, the note on that is in paranthesis, but it's there.

 

+1 with Swords - this can be OCV/DCV or Damage Classes (takes 2 CSLs per +1 DC)' date=' as defined each Phase, you don't have to choose at time of purchase; With the Optional Rule in effect the DCV Bonus does not count vs Ranged Attacks.[/quote']

I just didn't continue repeating it in every instance to save time.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

2 CSLs for 1 DC is a ripoff but 1 CSL for 1 DC is too good. ;P Maybe a 3 CSLs for 2 DC would be nice.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

not when you take into account that that's a Damage Class applicable to any attack you make for which the CSL applies.

 

with an 8pt CSL that's only 16 points to add 1D6 Normal Damage to any attack you make.

 

At the 3pt CSL level that's 6 points to add 1D6 Normal Damage.

 

It's a balance. At the 8pt lvl it seems a bit high, and the 3pt level it's a bargain IMO.

[Gary]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

2 CSLs for 1 DC is a ripoff but 1 CSL for 1 DC is too good. ;P Maybe a 3 CSLs for 2 DC would be nice.

 

 

2 CSLs for 1 DC is actually way too cheap under most circumstances.

 

+1d6 EB 0 End costs 7.5 pts.

 

2 DCs with EB (and 2 other attacks, or the entire multipower) costs 6 pts.

 

So for a cheaper cost, you can have a DC or additional flexibility in case you need CV instead of damage. And you can have this with 3 attacks or a multipower rather than 1 single attack.

 

That's why I recommend allowing CSLs to trade for damage only at the 5 pt level or higher.

 

PS To toot my own horn a bit, I have an article in DH #34 that unifies the rules for Dex, CSLs, and PSLs in one coherent manner and maintains game balance between all of them in campaigns with or without NCM. The rules may be a little too radical for most people, but I think it's worth looking at.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

2 CSLs for 1 DC is actually way too cheap under most circumstances.

 

+1d6 EB 0 End costs 7.5 pts.

 

2 DCs with EB (and 2 other attacks, or the entire multipower) costs 6 pts.

Not only that, but those 2 3-point CSLs can be applied to an EB with +8 worth of Advantages for...6 points (CSLs and Martial Arts aren't affected by Advantages). On the other hand, CSLs are subject to the Doubling Rule, so in one sense they aren't as good as (or perhaps you could say they fulfill a different role from) buying up the attack.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

So they all move at beginning of your phase (your stage in the round). That's what I thought' date=' because it was the only thing that made sense, but now I know.[/quote']

Almost. Shifting CSLs requires a Zero-Phase Action, which means it can be done at the beginning of your Phase or after an initial Half Phase, but you cannot perform a Zero-Phase Action after an Attack Action. In any case you can generally only assign them once per Phase. It will rarely make a difference to perform a Half Phase action before shifting CSLs, but it can if, for example, an opponent uses a Delayed Phase to attack you in the middle of your movement; in that case you might be better off with (keeping) them on DCV until after you move, and then shifting them to OCV/damge before you attack.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Combat Skill Levels

 

I thought DC's were subject to the advantages of the power being used. It works that way with strength I know. So a sword loaded up with +20 in advantages would require 105 STR per DC!