The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

First, good morning! I confused everyone with this:

 

Originally Posted by Thia Halmades

Limited Class of Powers: Only spells in book (-1/2) This is genius. Adopted. I will call it George. However, I want the caster to be able to research new spells; you're saying a skill would do this, and I'm thinking you're on the right track. Would that skill be Research: Arcane Spells (9 + INT/5) at a 3:2, and the skill roll equal to (11 + END/2)? Thusly, if you want a 60 Active Spell, you'd need to roll 14- after all modifiers? Yes? No?

 

What I meant when I said "END" was Active Points/10, or in my mind, the END required to cast the spell. I said what you did, but only to me in my own shorthand. Mea culpa, I grasp this. Sorry 'bout that, didn't mean to baffle the planet.

 

The Fool: My vision of using Charges meant that each power always had One Charge (and thus didn't cost END) and would be applied against the Active Pool in terms of 1/3rd its Real Points, enabling a caster to have multiple instances of a single spell (say, 8 Fireballs) which would be roughly... eh... 6d6 EB, Explosion, and then the usual 4.75 in disads (Concentration -1/4, Gestures -1/4, Incant -1/4, OAF -1 (approx.), Charge (one) -2). Using that formula we found ourselves sitting right next to Killer Shrike's construction for conversion from d20: ((d20 Spell Level + 1)* 15) = Approx. Active Points). In other words:

 

A 3rd level spell should be worth 60 Active Points ((4 * 15) = 60). We were able to produce a Fireball almost identically, which makes you wonder exactly what the d20 designers are using to draft their spells in the first place, because it was rather eerie. Anyway, moving on.

 

Going by that formula and using it as gauge, we then do this math:

 

1st Level: 30 Active, 4.75 in general disads = 6 REAL

2nd Level: 9 REAL

3rd Level: 13 REAL

4th Level: 16 REAL

5th Level: 19 REAL

 

Flipping to the SRD for a second, we know that a 9th Level Wizard has the following slots:

 

1st - 4, 2nd - 4, 3rd - 3, 4th - 2, 5th -1.

1st - 24 real, 2nd - 36 real, 3rd - 39 real, 4th - 32 real, 5th - 19 real.

Total d20 converted pool: 150 @ 9th level.

 

Using the charge model, and then using Grimoire's suggestion of 1/3rd real cost, and charging for a VPP, we can (to my reasoning) approximate a d20 wizard and it comes out nearly identically. That's one way of doing it that I at least grasp, and could reasonably enforce. Then learning new spells, or reading from a book, would be an RSR function. They pay for the VPP itself (expensive) and then pay for the individual spells. If, at 9th level, they have a 50 pt. VPP, and probably a 25 pt. Control Pool (ignoring disads for the moment) that would cost them roughly 75 points of their 250 (for being higher level). That leaves 175, and each spell is costed at 1/3rd, which is "approximate spell level +1." So a 5th level spell is going to cost 6 CP.

 

10 1st: 20 pts.

8 2nd: 24 pts.

6 3rd: 24 pts.

4 4th: 20 pts.

3 5th: 18 pts.

Total for spells: 106 pts. With the VPP? About 160 pts.

 

That leaves 90 points to cost out stats (60 points, at least for the munchkins) and 30 points in skills/talents/perks.

 

I like this, but the player is going to have a conniption over the power cut from d20 (where he's ruler of all because of his stats; since INT controls skills he has an insane number of skill points) to where he should be reasonably, having spent most of his energy on gaining magic power. That's a fight I can't win because he equates "fun" with "power." That's a consideration.

 

Okay. Keeping the spell construction model (it does work) and assuming for the moment I'm willing to change "one charge" for "delayed effect" or "trigger" or stack them as necessary, could I then adapt a charge model (each spell has one charge, and memming it multiple times consumes multiple slots) and still have:

 

- Players capable of taking the time to read from the book? Disad, extra time, delayed effect, thus replicating the 'memorization' of a spell, and leaving it with one charge forces the PC to mem multiple applications of it. Would that still allow the player to cast from the book in an emergency, or did I build a broken effect?

 

- INT/5 = Slots. I get this now (w00t) but still having difficulty on how slots are added (Mastery = 5pt. skill per level? Is there a similar effect in the book?). Also, what I would ideally want is a system that consumed more slots per Active Cost/10 but I don't know how to build that, which is why the VPP appealed to me in the first place; it does that naturally by the nature of having a set pool into which to place your spells.

 

Suggestions? Did this make sense to anyone? Do I need more coffee?

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Lest the issue be further confused, a couple of quick notes on the above...

#1) in order to take advantage of the doubling of the available slots, it's stated both in FREd and in FH that iyou have to pay the doubled cost on all the powers you weant to stack together. So if you want double the slots and have full flexibility, you have to up the advantage on all your Delayed Effect Spells to +1/2. If you store even one spell that only has D.E. at the +1/4 level, you loose the ability to use all the other slots.

Hence why I use other methods of increasing the slots.

 

#2) FH discusses the idea of Casting versus Release limitations and END costs on pages 125 & 126 in the section on Delayed Effect. The default from from the rulebook is far more "superheroish"... using the by the book version would give you much more Merlin of Amber style hung spells... not always a bad thing, but not the classic FRPG model.

 

Some more thoughts on my Delayed Effects comments:

 

1) Fantasy Hero also discusses the notion of Casting Slots versus Prepared Slots. To allow a spellcaster more flexibility who is using Delayed Effect to model their spells, they may be able to prepare twice the number of spells that they can actually cast. Delayed Effect basically models how many releases of spells they can do, but they can prepare twice that many spells (or more, depending on GM's desires). This gives a spellcaster a bit more flexibility.

 

2) Using Concentration and Extra Time as preparation Limitations and then Gestures, Incantations, maybe RSR and/or a Focus as release Limitations probably models the spellcasting effects of D&D-ish style magic spells best.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Second Post!

 

Steve: Good morning, btw. I read this in the book last night:

 

1) The base version is +1/4 Advantage, and that lets you ready/stack a certain number of spells beforehand (suggested limits are INT/5, a total amount of Active Points, or a number like 6). For every +1/4 Advantage beyond that, the limit doubles. So a +3/4 Delayed Effect on a spell would let you store 4 times whatever the base limit is, or say 24 of them if the starting limit is 6 for the +1/4 version in that world.

 

I read this rule six or seven times, and I was still unclear as to where Delayed Effect was applied; it is acting like a self-contained charge, showing the number of instances the spell can be prepped? Is the ability, Delayed Effect, bought as a Naked Advantage, or part of a power? This is another great example of something that sounds good, and I grasp the idea just fine, but I'm still having difficulty with the mechanics.

 

In my above post we spent three hours breaking the system down, doing math, recreating some spells, drafting a sort of "if you don't know, use this formula" universal for establishing real cost. Even dividing that by three, we're severely limiting what else a Wizard can do (even in terms of skills, etc.) So I'm not sold on a system yet, because I don't want a war on my hands. And I'm not overly concerned with playing "d20 in HERO" but I would like a system that is affordable and has multiple applications.

 

Yeargh. The more I know the more questions I have.

 

Originally Posted by Steve

2) Using Concentration and Extra Time as preparation Limitations and then Gestures, Incantations, maybe RSR and/or a Focus as release Limitations probably models the spellcasting effects of D&D-ish style magic spells best.

 

Can you post this again with an example? Again, it sounds right, but I'm still slightly baffled on where all the pieces to the puzzle go.

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Second Post!

 

Steve: Good morning, btw. I read this in the book last night:

 

I read this rule six or seven times, and I was still unclear as to where Delayed Effect was applied; it is acting like a self-contained charge, showing the number of instances the spell can be prepped? Is the ability, Delayed Effect, bought as a Naked Advantage, or part of a power? This is another great example of something that sounds good, and I grasp the idea just fine, but I'm still having difficulty with the mechanics.

 

Delayed Effect at its basic +1/4 level limits the numbers of castings allowed, not necessarily preparations. Fantasy Hero discusses allowing a spellcaster to prepare more spells than they can actually cast. This would allow you to model the notion of a cleric substituting a healing spell for one of their other spells cast per day. It is bought as part of each spell in your list, not a naked Advantage. However, every spell must have the higher form of Delayed Effect to increase the numbers of castings. As a spellcaster goes up in power, you can add points to each spell to show they can cast it more often, starting at Delayed Effect +1/4 then going to +1/2 or maybe even +3/4, but I suggest maxing there. Assuming INT/5 castings allowed, this means a wizard can unload 4 times that amount of spells per day (assuming all his spells are built with Delayed Effect +3/4), so if a wizard has INT 25 they can cast 20 times a day. It works a bit like Charges.

 

Can you post this again with an example? Again' date=' it [i']sounds[/i] right, but I'm still slightly baffled on where all the pieces to the puzzle go.

 

Well, the spell would look like any other power write-up from the books. The difference lies in you defining for your game world what Limitations are Preparation Limitations and what ones are Release Limitations. As an example, you could make it a standard thing that the Preparation Limitations are Concentration and Extra Time, maybe a Focus as well (spellbook). Any other Limitations represent the Release Limitations. A case could also be made that spells requiring material components could also take a second Focus Limitation, only as part of the Release Limitations.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Wouldn't that then cap out the total casts per day, without recourse, other than building up INT? *spins this around a minute* AND it would cause all powers to have the Advantage: Delayed Effect (+3/4) correct? And are you suggesting this as part of a VPP, or as a stand alone series of spells which act in a conceived slot concept?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Yeah, I went thru several permutations to model D&D Spells (a board search and some patience would probably find some of them, plus some other ones that I abandonned before even bothering to toss ideas out to the forum). The 15 AP per Spell Level worked really well for a majority of Spells.

 

A very interesting point is that it quickly becomes clear which D&D Spells are really borked when you convert them into the HERO System -- some are obviously more powerful than others of the same level. Magic Missile is an obvious one of course, but things like Shadow Evocation and some of the Summons are pretty crazy. I had to model one spell -- I think Gate -- as three different Spells that would have to be cast in succession to do the Pentagram, the Summon, and the sending of the summond entity back after the task was done for instance.

 

But for the most part, 15 AP / Spell Level was just right.

 

 

As an aside, when I first picked up D&D 3e and read the combat section I was like -- this is like HERO-lite. Take the HERO System combat model, remove the SPD chart, replace Aborts with AoO's, and keep in mind that hitpoints work differently than STUN / BODY and what do you have?

 

Then I checked the credits and saw Monte Cook's name and was like --- hmmmmmm.........

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

I have noticed some distinct similarities with the various permuations of the combat engine; it's round by round, and rounds occur in two steps (although in d20, you can attack, then move - is there a reason this is set that way in HERO?) Also the ability to Abort is huge, but also, giving all mages the Concentration disad makes them pleasantly vulnerable.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

2) END is used at the time of preparation, not the time of release,

 

Per the book? I don't have mine in front of me, but... I was harshing on Thia over this, and if it's true then I apologize.

 

I personally think it should be paid at the time of release, and would probably house rule it to that, but if it's in the book it's in the book.

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Per the book? I don't have mine in front of me, but... I was harshing on Thia over this, and if it's true then I apologize.

 

I personally think it should be paid at the time of release, and would probably house rule it to that, but if it's in the book it's in the book.

 

That's what I read in 5ER when I was reviewing the Advantage last night. It makes a sort of sense, since you are effectively "charging" up the spell at the time of preparation, then you do such things like your Activation Rolls and targeting rolls at the time of release.

 

However, it also makes sense in thinking about preparation vs. release as discussed in Fantasy Hero to say that the END is spent on release, since a caster may prepare more spells than he can actually release using the Delayed Effect construct method. A suggested method is twice the number of spells may be prepared than can actually be released. If that is how magic is being done, then it makes sense that END is spent on release only, since otherwise you are making a spellcaster pay END on a spell he is then never able to release.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

This is why I built it as an END Reserve structure; you're "spending the END" in advance, and the Reserve represents the spells you can prepare per day. No need to apologize, that's why we're here. But now at least I know I wasn't crazy, and - here's the cool part - using Delayed Effect or Trigger in addition the END reserve makes that particular build work out on its own as well.

 

Which brings me back to this: If I were to do it as an END Reserve, where do the caps get placed? This is why I was looking at skills originally; to somehow install a mechanic (possibly close to something in a book, but nothing I find fits) that caps off Active Points in a spell, without letting the PC just dump 30 points into an END Reserve and start slinging all day long. Also, because the END Reserve is much cheaper, you can spend 15 points and have a 150 point "real" pool of accessible points for your spells, thusly coughing up the near exact amount of mana that a 9th level Wizard would have.

 

Thoughts?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Which brings me back to this: If I were to do it as an END Reserve, where do the caps get placed? This is why I was looking at skills originally; to somehow install a mechanic (possibly close to something in a book, but nothing I find fits) that caps off Active Points in a spell, without letting the PC just dump 30 points into an END Reserve and start slinging all day long.

 

There is an Active Point cap "mechanic" already in the system. I can't give you a page number, but look in the beginning of the book where it talks about power levels; Heroic, Standard Superheroic, etc. The book suggests Active Point caps based on power level.

 

You're perfectly free to use them, modify them, or ignore them as you see fit.

 

If you're using some kind of "character level" designator, you can tie Active Point caps to level: 15 points times (level+1) which is what you were talking about before. Fantasy Hero suggests several ways of designating character level.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Other thoughts:

 

I still want the same things, I just have a much better understanding of the rules. I now know that I can use Charges, as part of a VPP, which could work very well. I could also roll them into the "Spells" individually and leave them outside of a VPP, and incorporate an INT/5 Slot system, and add slots based on a skill. With that. But that prohibits growth of slots without having an INT in the 30s. I also like the idea of a 'slot' being unfixed; i.e., if my caster wants to prep Fireball every time, hey. He can do that.

 

I've got Spell Design down, and I'm all about Delayed Effect; I also like Concentration. I can reasonably incorporate both of those into every spell along with Incant/Gesture/OAF. Now I could just nerf the whole thing, build a huge stack of spells and slap a chart on the PC with an artificial construct that tells him how many spells per day he gets, but that's very unHEROic. Not exactly what I want.

 

With the END Reserve the mana pool already exists; since the END is expended at the time of casting, it takes up a 'space' in the END Reserve, and then becomes a variation of Delayed Effect and ... whatever the one is for preparation/casting time (unless they're the same thing and I'm confused). I could also, as Steve put it, have two sets of lims on each spell.

 

Here's the part I cannot figure out. How do I limit the END Reserve and power levels of the caster? I want to tie to a skill, specifically, "Spell Craft" or "FWACKOOM NUMBER" or whatever you want to call it. The skill is an INT based, and I want the skill progression (or the skill base - something) tied directly to the END Reserve and the PCs ability to learn new spells. So, rather than Active Capping him, the investment in creating spells is based in part on his Skill Roll to learn a spell, whether its one he researched himself or picked up.

 

That's my vision. How would y'all work the skill element of that so the whole thing makes sense?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Here's the part I cannot figure out. How do I limit the END Reserve and power levels of the caster? I want to tie to a skill' date=' specifically, "Spell Craft" or "FWACKOOM NUMBER" or whatever you want to call it. The skill is an INT based, and I want the skill progression (or the skill base - something) tied directly to the END Reserve [i']and [/i]the PCs ability to learn new spells. So, rather than Active Capping him, the investment in creating spells is based in part on his Skill Roll to learn a spell, whether its one he researched himself or picked up.

 

That's my vision. How would y'all work the skill element of that so the whole thing makes sense?

 

Easy peasy. Say that characters can buy no more than, say, (3 times Skill Roll) Real Points worth of spells. Or say that they automatically get that many points worth of spells for free, and have to pay points for more. Or say that characters can buy no more than, say, (10 times Skill Roll) total Active Points worth of spells.

 

Right now you're in a spot where the GM has a lot of discretion.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

And the same 10x Skill Roll rule would apply to the max END Reserve, which is what I was trying to say earlier, and it ends up working vaguely like a VPP (to raise my mana/max spell I must raise both my Pool and Control Cost) but without the hassle of spending points in the VPP, and giving me the ability to build in the skill itself.

 

So... a skill roll is (9 + INT/5) plus skill ranks, yeah? So at 20 INT, his base is going to be 13-? And he can never have an END Reserve over his Total Skill Roll, which gives him incentive to improve the Skill and improve his END Reserve. Got that, assuming I did this right. Then learning any new spell (ANY new spell, including researched) forces a Skill Roll. That I like.

 

Finally, he can't have a spell more powerful than (Skill Roll) * 5. That also seems to make sense, although it may be slightly too limiting, I'll test it out. At 7 ranks, using an assumed 20 INT, that'll give him 5th/6th level spells, roughly (using KS's formula).

 

Then I charge him 1/3rd REAL for spells once he learns them, and he pre-spends their END in the Reserve to count it as "prepared." *pant pant* So now I'm somewhat back where I started, but with far more weapons and knowledge in my arsenal.

 

Critiques?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Wait, I'm still unclear: does a VPP come with powers out of the box, or is it just the framework (like a multipower) that you place powers into?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Wait' date=' I'm still unclear: does a VPP [i']come[/i] with powers out of the box, or is it just the framework (like a multipower) that you place powers into?

 

The VPP comes with powers, more or less. That is, you don't need to buy them with other points; the player just says "I'm putting these powers into my Variable Power Pool" and there they are (assuming he's met any other conditions for putting them in, such as being in lab, having bulky spell book, etc.).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

So I could have the PC build his VPP out of ... eh ... 40 points active, 20 point control, and it would "come with" 40 real points of spells built in, yes? Then he could be ruled to add spells as he learns them so long as the rule for available active power equalling the max power available is waived to represent an open book, yes? That would make things much cheaper.

[Steve]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Well, the caps are built into the spell structure and the magic system. The END Reserve is sort of a side issue, since it only needs to cover the END for the spells set up using Delayed Effect. If there is extra END left over, then it just sits there.

 

One thing I would propose is a standard Limitation that would cover the preparation of spells, like studying a spellbook or prayers to a deity. It would use Concentration and Extra Time, and they could just be called Spell Preparation. Then the actual release of the spell would have any other Limitations the spell requires. This might also include Concentration and Extra Time, which seems to make sense for more difficult spells, but I am not sure of the legality of having Extra Time twice on a power.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

EXTRA TIME. That's what I couldn't remember. Gracias! We liked it when we were discussing it last night; it's certainly something to slap on every Summon in the game.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

So I could have the PC build his VPP out of ... eh ... 40 points active' date=' 20 point control, and it would "come with" 40 real points of spells built in, yes? Then he could be ruled to add spells as he learns them so long as the rule for available active power equalling the max power available is waived to represent an open book, yes? That would make things [i']much [/i]cheaper.

 

A VPP without the "Limited Group of Powers" limitation comes out of the box with anything the player can come up with and the GM will allow. By adding the limti, it becomes a haggling session twixt you and the player. Starting the player with a set of spells that fully occupies the VPP (and no extra) is certainly an option, but might make the player feel a bit nerfed, or might not... its all down to style at that point... there aren't any hard & fast rules.

just like there aren't any hard & fast rules for determining the number of slots, calculating preperation slots and the like. Hence why I dreamt up the Mastery Talent.. to answer your earlier question, no, it didn't come from any particular source other than the general discussion in the FH on adding Magical Talents to modify and control a customized magic system.

You have options here, as the GM. You could base the number of spells he can write up from the Pool of the VPP, from the Control of the VPP, from the Magic Skill, from a talent like MAstery, from a new skill (like Spell Familiarity, used like Weapon Familiarity) that he pays points for... or any combonation of the above.

I might come up with some examples later, but my brain is kinda wonderjello today.

Suffice to say... when crafting a magic system to have a particular feel, especially to match or approximate the feel of another game systems magic, you end up having to make a lot of choices that aren't always things you can find in the book.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

So I could have the PC build his VPP out of ... eh ... 40 points active' date=' 20 point control, and it would "come with" 40 real points of spells built in, yes? Then he could be ruled to add spells as he learns them so long as the rule for available active power equalling the max power available is waived to represent an open book, yes? That would make things [i']much [/i]cheaper.

 

Well.....

 

Per the rules, it doesn't come with any "built in" if I'm getting what you're saying. That is, there isn't any set limit on premade Powers that you would put in. A VPP, vanilla, with no Limitations, means you can have any Powers, up to the point limits, at any time, on the fly.

 

Many GMs require players to have a preset list of Powers they can switch to, not for mechanical reasons (and thus not worth any Limitation value, but it also means players can come up with new ones just by adding them to their list) but because it makes it easier during play (otherwise you have players going "Okay, let's see, I put in a ranged killing attack, armor piercing, okay, that's two dice...no wait, that's too many Active Points, let's make it 1 1/2d6... and I need to get it down to 9 Real Points, so maybe I'll put Limitation X on..." which takes a lot of time and has other players wanting to thwack you with a large heavy Hero System book. Not that I know this from experience or anything.).

 

It's not infrequent for VPPs, especially in fantasy games, to have a Limitation to the effect "Only Known Spells" or "Only Spells From List" with a requirement to research or acquire others during play if you want to add them, or otherwise with set procedures for adding them.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Well, the caps are built into the spell structure and the magic system. The END Reserve is sort of a side issue, since it only needs to cover the END for the spells set up using Delayed Effect. If there is extra END left over, then it just sits there.

 

One thing I would propose is a standard Limitation that would cover the preparation of spells, like studying a spellbook or prayers to a deity. It would use Concentration and Extra Time, and they could just be called Spell Preparation. Then the actual release of the spell would have any other Limitations the spell requires. This might also include Concentration and Extra Time, which seems to make sense for more difficult spells, but I am not sure of the legality of having Extra Time twice on a power.

while both seem to be of questionable book legality, I'd allow them for purposes of things making sense. Extra time and or concentration seem to me to be de rigeur for "preperation" but far more limiting in game play as Release limitations. Maybe allow them to be used twice, but halve the value of the limits used at Preperation?

A spell that requires 20 minutes preperation (normally a -2 1/2 limit) would only get (-1 1/4) for the Extra Time_Preperation, but could also take Full Phase to relaese for an extra (-1/2), or Full turn for the (-1).

It makes the preperation limits a lot smaller, but it kinda fits with the HERO philosophy about limits that don't limit as much being worth less.

 

Of course, I'd probably just say to heck with it and allow the limitation double dipping. I've often allowed multiples of the same limitation at full value as long as its clear to me as a GM why the build has the Limit twice. IF you want to simulate a fell but don't want to mess with doubling up for purposes of design philosophy, make it a Conditional or Limited Power common to the magic system... "Releasing Delayed Effect spells requires a full phase at 1/2 DCV"

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

This is why I built it as an END Reserve structure; you're "spending the END" in advance' date=' and the Reserve represents the spells you can prepare per day. No need to apologize, that's why we're here. But now at least I know I wasn't crazy, and - here's the cool part - using [i']Delayed Effect[/i] or Trigger in addition the END reserve makes that particular build work out on its own as well.

 

Which brings me back to this: If I were to do it as an END Reserve, where do the caps get placed? This is why I was looking at skills originally; to somehow install a mechanic (possibly close to something in a book, but nothing I find fits) that caps off Active Points in a spell, without letting the PC just dump 30 points into an END Reserve and start slinging all day long. Also, because the END Reserve is much cheaper, you can spend 15 points and have a 150 point "real" pool of accessible points for your spells, thusly coughing up the near exact amount of mana that a 9th level Wizard would have.

 

Thoughts?

 

Couple of options spring to mind...

 

GM's Fiat... looking at the charater and saying "nope, to much End in the eserve. scale it down."

 

Comming up with a game world structure... instead of letting them buy whatever form of END reserve they want, you prebuild levels of the Reserve and make them purchace that, perhaps with a prerequisite that the maximum amount you can buy is tied to either the Magic Skill level or tyhe Control Cost of the VPP

 

Make the END Reserve be purchaced with Requires a Skill Roll, and use the option for partial success... so when they go to use the Reserve to memorize spells, they have to make a SR, and the total amount of their End they can use is based on how well they make their Spellcrafting roll by.

say, instead of giving a penalty to the SR, you say that they can use Hlaf their reserve, plus 5 (or 10) end per point they make their skill roll by. Would need a bity of tweaking to determine proper levels based on how high the skill rolls are.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Yeargh... sorry, Chris Goodwin, I know this is probably crystal to you but I'm still unclear. When I sit down with a PC, and make him construct his VPP: Magic, does he, at that time, get to stack a bunch of spells into his spell book? Does he start the game with pre-defined spells that fall under his creation cap, or does he have to buy each one individually and the pool is just that; a pool?

 

What I think you're saying is: "At the time the VPP is created, powers are created within the VPP that represent what the VPP can do. These powers do not cost additional CP." Then I would have the player purchase "additional powers in the VPP" i.e. spells for the normal 1/3rd Real Cost. Yes? This would make the VPP model that The Fool worked so hard to get through my thick Paladinic skull valid and usable. My current impression was:

 

"You create a X point VPP, with an X/2 Control Cost. This confers absolutely no benefit whatsoever, other to grant the ability to learn powers within the VPP. All spells then cost Points." - If that's wrong, that's a good thing.

 

The Fool: Lovin' me some VPP, now that I appear to have corrected an inaccurate assumption, and you alluded to it in one of your earlier posts about not having to pay within it, but I had actually missed that. I'm going to use the Spell Craft/Skill function as a means of spell research, so that when a power is added to the VPP the player will have payed for it; it will also severely hamper any munchkinism.

 

Would you start him off with the full 1/3rd boat in the pool, but do it as a matter of "character creation?" I may just cap the whole thing out; "At first level you may not have a VPP greater than 40 Active." And give him 120 Real Points of spells based on that. After doing the math I can say with some certainty that it isn't that much. But it's not going to scale well.

 

Thoughts on how to scale?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

 

Yeargh... sorry' date=' [b']Chris Goodwin[/b], I know this is probably crystal to you but I'm still unclear. When I sit down with a PC, and make him construct his VPP: Magic, does he, at that time, get to stack a bunch of spells into his spell book? Does he start the game with pre-defined spells that fall under his creation cap, or does he have to buy each one individually and the pool is just that; a pool?

 

What I think you're saying is: "At the time the VPP is created, powers are created within the VPP that represent what the VPP can do. These powers do not cost additional CP." Then I would have the player purchase "additional powers in the VPP" i.e. spells for the normal 1/3rd Real Cost. Yes? This would make the VPP model that The Fool worked so hard to get through my thick Paladinic skull valid and usable. My current impression was:

 

"You create a X point VPP, with an X/2 Control Cost. This confers absolutely no benefit whatsoever, other to grant the ability to learn powers within the VPP. All spells then cost Points." - If that's wrong, that's a good thing.

 

The Fool: Lovin' me some VPP, now that I appear to have corrected an inaccurate assumption, and you alluded to it in one of your earlier posts about not having to pay within it, but I had actually missed that. I'm going to use the Spell Craft/Skill function as a means of spell research, so that when a power is added to the VPP the player will have payed for it; it will also severely hamper any munchkinism.

 

Would you start him off with the full 1/3rd boat in the pool, but do it as a matter of "character creation?" I may just cap the whole thing out; "At first level you may not have a VPP greater than 40 Active." And give him 120 Real Points of spells based on that. After doing the math I can say with some certainty that it isn't that much. But it's not going to scale well.

 

Thoughts on how to scale?

Thats wrong, and its a good thing

Lets look a a coupld of NON spell caster Vpp's, shall we?

A Djinni is usually built with a MASSIVE VPP, often with the Cosmic (+2) advantage on the Control (No time nor skill roll required to change pool), and the Limitations 3 charges, Charges only recover with a new master.

 

So if you have his lamp, the Djinni can use basically any possible combonation of powers that can be assemebled into his power pool to do virtually anything you ask him to do. He doesn't have to spend any other points... No skill, no buying spells, no learning how to do it... your wish is his command.

 

On the character sheet it looks something like this....

 

Wish Granting

200 point VPP

Control cost: 200 AP =100 base points, Cosmic (+2): 300 points

3 charges (-1 1/4), Charges never recover for a particular owner (call it -1)

total Control cost :300 / (1+2 1/4) = 92 points

Total cost of power: 292 points

 

Thats it. Nothing else needed. For a particular owner, that Djinni can use the VPP a total of 3 times to fufil whatever his owner desires, within the constraints of the AP of the pool.

You ask him to wipe a city out of existance, he configures his VPP into a Megascale Area of Effect Extra Dimensional Movement, usable as an attack, and makes the city go away.

Or a continuing Megascale AOE Transform and turns everyone into pillars of salt.

Or a Megascale AOE uncontrolled continous Penetrating RKA and causes a rain of fire from the heavens that burns everything to ash.

 

At its most Comic bookish, a gadgeteer only needs his Gadget pool, somewherre to store and make his gadgets and a Skill roll to shift the pool. Doesn't need to pay any other points for his gadgets. You can always spot the gadgeteer players by their tendency to be scribbling out ideas for new gadgets during downtime for their characters....

"Well, as long as I'm at -40 stun, I might as well work on the specs for the Continuium Transfunctioner I was thinking about building"

Whilehe might normally keep his pool in a fairly standard configuration (Batcape, check... Armored Costume, check... Batbelt, check...)

He has the ability to shift it radically if he spends the time and resources to do so ( like building a suit of Batpowered Armor to stomp on Superman)

 

VPP's require a fair bit of interactive GMing to keep them from getting out of hand, but I'd still go on the generous side of things when it comes to determining the spells the character starts out with in the book initally.

you'll make up for it by restricting the speed and rate at which the character can add new spells.

If you think about it... a character can buy a Weapons Familiarity for 2 lousy points that lets him know how to weild ALL common melee weapons, and another 2 for all common missle weapons. For 4 points you have the foundation skills to be a beginning warrior... not a good one... but at least the proficiencies. Don't get too hung up on restricting your spell users options right out of the gate... they are investing a TON of their starting points into being magic users, and they shouldn't get too nerfed by it.