Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

[Edsel]

Let's say that you made a suit of medieval plate armor, just as flexable at that armor was supposed to be. But instead of making it out of steel you made it out of rigid modern armor plates (kevlar, ceramics, etc.).

 

How effective would that armor be against firearms?

How effective would it be against medieval weapons (swords, bows, etc.)?

How much would it likely weight?

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

Don't forget Nomex/kevlar joints for fire resistance and gas filters.

You need at least 12 layers of ballistic fiber to be effective, and with using a good resin (it's a secret), would give you a weight of 57 lbs for a suit similiar to lorica segmentata. (more solid plates, better fastening)

The plates themselves would stop .22lr, 9mm, and .45- but serious fracturing occurs with solid slug 12gauge at 30 yards. It is moderately effective against nylon coated 9mm, no idea for metal jacketed.

Regarding melee combat- it is fully resistant to baseball bats and knives (in the hard armor areas) but a wood axe causes severe splintering.

Ceramic is another story, and out of a price range for street evaluations.

[Kirby]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

How effective would that armor be against firearms?

Very. At least as effective as today's armor.

How effective would it be against medieval weapons (swords' date=' bows, etc.)?[/quote']

Not very. Against arrows, it would probably work well, since they couldn't really pierce platemail (sorry to the British Longbowman). Against swords and knives, it would be nearly useless (modern body armor cannot stop blades), though against maces, flails and hammers I'd think it'd protect against "Body" but not really much versus "Stun"

How much would it likely weight?

Probably as much as platemail did.

[gojira]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

Hmm, I think you'd have something that worked well against hand wepaons, small arms and fragmentation, not so much against high powered weapons.

 

First, let me say what I think a "modern" armour would consist of. I'd make a padded undershirt, with the outside being light weight kevlar, the sort that bullet proof clothing is made of. The fabric next to the skin is just regular cotton, because I don't think kevlar would be very comfortable. The padded undershirt works the same as a padded shirt that would be worn under armour in the medieval time period.

 

On top if this is placed the stiff kevlar plates. Cuiras (torso), pauldrons (shoulders), vambraces (arms) with articulated elbows. Add legs, and a helmet that covers most of the face, head and neck. The ceramic pieces would cover the vitals, like the chest and back. These would be in addition to the kevlar under garmet and the kevlar cuiras. Then add a plexiglass cover over the eyes parts of the helmet.

 

Ok, now what would it do? I assume that it would be good against regular muscle power weapons. Kevlar is tough stuff, and the combination of stiff plates and a padded undergarmet would work as well as medieval armour. Against something long and poky, you could be in danger if they slipped it up inside the armour somewhere, like under the legs or under the helmet. However, even light weight kelvar will stop knives and ice picks (check the DuPont web site) so even medieval weapons would have a hard time of it.

 

Ditto for small arms. I don't have any direct experience with kevlar and firearms but this is what it was designed to do -- stop small arms fire. So it's gotta be at least effective agains hand guns and the like. Note that plexiglass won't stop a bullet. Also, on the Myth Busters show, they used a darn think chuck of bullet proof glass (actually a plastic laminate) to stop even shots from hand guns. I assume this would be impractical to use as a cover for the eye parts of the helmet. YMMV.

 

High power weapons, like a 30-06 and sniper weapons and medium machine guns and up, I figure only the ceramic plate would have a chance of stoping. I don't have any first hand experience here either but that's conventional gamer wisdome AFAIK.

 

What's it weigh? Heavy. As much as medieval heavy plate at least. The ceramic plates used in body armour are very dense and heavy. I'd say at least ST 12 to lug the thing around with you. If you had this on and had to carry a military pack also, I'd guess at least St 14 to 15 to be able to do so effectively.

 

 

(Just totally aside, I new someone who managed a fabric store. She said they had someone come in on a regular basis and buy kevlar fabric. He said he made custom bullet proof clothing. So there is a legitimate basis for buying this stuff, if you'd want to get some. You might be able to get some samples. Some fencing jackets use kevlar too, it's meant to stop injury from a broken blade. You might also be able to talk a sales rep from DuPont into giving you some info. This could be fun and informative, or you could get a permanent file with the FBI. Dunno, I thought I just mention this.)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

It's actually pretty easy to get people to stop asking questions when you ask for something strange. I've had a number of reasons to get/request rather odd things from various places (salvage yards, silversmiths, and yes, fabric shops). When they give me a funny look, I start to explain, and the first part is always "Well, I'm an Engineering student at UMC, and..."

 

I have never got beyond that; they always nod in understanding, hold up a hand and say some version of "Ah, that's okay; no need to go into details." (Translation: "Please don't go into details!!!")

 

In my case, this was true (I was an Engineering student) but I see no reason why it shouldn't work for someone else who's just using it as a way to stop inconvenient questions.

[SteelDoom]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

If some one wanted to make ye olde style armour using modern alloys I'd probably do something like halving the weight and any other maneuvering type penalties and adding in two levels of hardened. Does that sound reasonable?

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

(Just totally aside' date=' I new someone who managed a fabric store. She said they had someone come in on a regular basis and buy kevlar fabric. He said he made custom bullet proof clothing. So there is a legitimate basis for buying this stuff, if you'd want to get some. You might be able to get some samples. Some fencing jackets use kevlar too, it's meant to stop injury from a broken blade. You might also be able to talk a sales rep from DuPont into giving you some info. This could be fun and informative, or you could get a permanent file with the FBI. Dunno, I thought I just mention this.)[/quote']

Yeah- you hhave to be careful regarding that- you couldn't use the type of Kevlar that you find at a Jo-Ann fabrics- you would bleed.

 

You would want one of these Kevlar fabrics: http://www.dupont.com/kevlar/lifeprotection/military/products/fiber.html

And remember- it has to be in LAYERS.

The resin should be something similiar to HEATCON's BMS 8-301 High Temperature Resistant Resin.

In Theory...

[gojira]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

If some one wanted to make ye olde style armour using modern alloys I'd probably do something like halving the weight and any other maneuvering type penalties and adding in two levels of hardened. Does that sound reasonable?

 

Just for me personally, no. If you leave off the ceramic inserts, yeah I think you could reduce most movement penalties. But two levels of hardening? No way. That's what armour peircing rounds are for, is to go through kevlar. I understand an armour peircing round will go through an engine block. Kevlar alone isn't going to stop that. Now add in the ceramic inserts, and I'd go for one level of hardening for the vitals and torso. But you'll add a lot of the weight back in too.

[gojira]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

It's actually pretty easy to get people to stop asking questions when you ask for something strange. I've had a number of reasons to get/request rather odd things from various places (salvage yards, silversmiths, and yes, fabric shops). When they give me a funny look, I start to explain, and the first part is always "Well, I'm an Engineering student at UMC, and..."

 

I have never got beyond that; they always nod in understanding, hold up a hand and say some version of "Ah, that's okay; no need to go into details." (Translation: "Please don't go into details!!!")

 

In my case, this was true (I was an Engineering student) but I see no reason why it shouldn't work for someone else who's just using it as a way to stop inconvenient questions.

 

If someone was to actually do this, I think it's best not to lie. If the sales rep gets excited and wants to vist your college to give a demo to the whole class, what do you do then?

 

So tell the truth. "Well, I play role-playing games, and I was thinking ... ". That'll stop them right there. No one wants to hear about vampire LARP if they can help it.

[massey]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

Just for me personally' date=' no. If you leave off the ceramic inserts, yeah I think you could reduce most movement penalties. But two levels of hardening? No way. That's what armour peircing rounds are for, is to go through kevlar. I understand an armour peircing round will go through an engine block. Kevlar alone isn't going to stop that. Now add in the ceramic inserts, and I'd go for one level of hardening for the vitals and torso. But you'll add a lot of the weight back in too.[/quote']

 

I think he said modern alloys. Meaning making plate armor with 21st century steel.

[SteelDoom]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

Just for me personally' date=' no. If you leave off the ceramic inserts, yeah I think you could reduce most movement penalties. But two levels of hardening? No way. That's what armour peircing rounds are for, is to go through kevlar. I understand an armour peircing round will go through an engine block. Kevlar alone isn't going to stop that. Now add in the ceramic inserts, and I'd go for one level of hardening for the vitals and torso. But you'll add a lot of the weight back in too.[/quote']

Iwould only use the hardening if the armour was being used in a fantasy settting.

[Markdoc]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

I think he said modern alloys. Meaning making plate armor with 21st century steel.

 

Actually that wouldn't have much effect. The only difference between 21st century steel and 14th century steel is that we can turn out the high grade stuff much more consistently and in huge quantities. There's only so much you can do with steel - you can't make it much harder without making it more brittle and you can't make it lighter without making it softer.

 

So our best steel is not a great deal better for armour than the best a good armourer could turn out in the high middle ages. Of course, we could make it so it didn't rust so easily and we could churn out suits by the million if we wanted to

 

As for general purpose armour (good vs firearms AND good versus hand to hand weapons) I'd suggest a different approach. Kevlar and other fibreweave armours are designed to stop a projectile that has light weight, low momentum but high velocity, by bleeding off the energy through stretching and spreading the impact over a wide area. That won't work against sharp pointy objects that cut - especially heavy, high momentum ones that don't deform. So kevlar's not very good against swords, arrows or flechettes. It does work OK against blunt hand to hand weapons. Newer fibre weave armours with a much higher thread density do offer better protection against cutting/piercing weapons, but they still get cut - and once they are cut, they're not very effective.

 

Ceramics will stop higher energy attacks - but they often shatter in the process. Mixing ceramics with fibreweave is designed to reduce the energy of an impact to the point where the ceramic doesn't shatter (that's why the ceramic is on the *inside*). I dunno how that would fare against a high momentum, low speed attack like an axe, but I suspect after a couple of good whacks it'd crack. Steel, on the other hand, deforms - even tears - but doesn't shatter easily.

 

So maybe your best bet would be to combine steel with fibreweave instead of ceramic. It'd be heavy and bulky, but not a great deal more than conventional medieval plate. It'd probably offer less protection against high energy firearms (though ironically, maybe more against armour piercing rounds) than conventional fibreweave+ceramic but more against medieval style cutting weapons. It'd certainly offer beter protection against firearms than medieval armour and it'd certainly last longer: remember that modern body armours are designed to be at least partially disposable. After your trauma plate has taken one good hit, you are supposed to replace it. If your fibreweave has a hole or a cut in it, you are also suposed to replace it (I know that doesn't happen in real life, but the performance drops off radically once integrity is compromised).

 

cheers, Mark

[APE]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

This web sight on titanium may help with your research.

http://www.matweb.com/reference/titanium.asp

actualy this second one would probably be easer to read.

http://www.efunda.com/materials/alloys/titanium/properties.cfm

[Susano]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

Whatever you do, don't make your armor out of the same stuff Imperial Stormtrooper armor is made out of. That stuff can't stop a stone-headed spear wielded by a teddy bear!!!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

It is all, really about protection v weight. Ideally you layer different materials through the armour until it protects you from anything that you think you might encounter: you probably can't actually walk by then, of course....

 

I'd be inclined to either make up material properties or fluff the real world ones a bit. There's this stuff called iridium halfnide: incredibly hard. You could stick that in your armour, that would turn blades for you, mind you it would probably shatter as it tends towards brittleness, but who is to say what super science material technology can create - perhaps all it takes is another metal or two in the alloy and you have something with a bit of give that has most of the hardness.

 

OTOH you could wear a suit of plate mail with a flack jacket under it, that would deal with most contingencies short of high explosives....

 

Police bullet proof vests have steel plate inserts over vital areas to stop knives: most police do not have to worry about swords and maces though....

[Markdoc]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

Whatever you do' date=' don't make your armor out of the same stuff Imperial Stormtrooper armor is made out of. That stuff can't stop a stone-headed spear wielded by a teddy bear!!![/quote']

 

Oh that? It's made out of Stabbium , which increases the effect of any impact on the user roughly 4-fold.

 

That's what you get when your armour is made by the lowest bidder

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Really Bizarre Armor Pondering

 

So long as you don't make it out of Throbmoanium (tm): it is fine for weapons, but for pity's sakes don't make armour out of it!