Curufea Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches I'd just like to point out that Good Omens was written by Terry Pratchett AND Neil Gaiman Neil Gaiman being another excellent writer (Sandman, American Gods, Neverwhere) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches I'd just like to point out that Good Omens was written by Terry Pratchett AND Neil Gaiman Neil Gaiman being another excellent writer (Sandman, American Gods, Neverwhere) Good point though. I always wondered how much was Gaiman, since the style screams Pratchett. Keith "On my list of favorite books" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 19, 2005 Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Depends which bits you like, and which author you talk too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted November 19, 2005 Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches I'd like to plug Terry Pratchett as being the master of turning cliche into something new and interesting. His elves are cool, stylish, popular and at the same time, deadly, self-absorbed total creeps. The first half notes the cliche, the second finds a new interpretation. Keith "Go Discworld" Curtis Not to quibble, but that's hardly something new. The Fae in traditonal folklore have always been self-absorbed and even monstrous in their actions. Katherine Briggs goes into far more detail in her works, esp. her Encyclopedia of the Fairies (a really great book, BTW). Then again, sometimes going back to the actual original folklore can look cliche-busting, simply because no one ever used it. Go and read about what vampires were like in Dracula or Anne Rice, and then read about the near-mindless predatory corpses in Don Calmet or Montague Summers. They're totally different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted November 19, 2005 Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Not to quibble' date=' but that's hardly something new. The Fae in traditonal folklore have always been self-absorbed and even monstrous in their actions. Katherine Briggs goes into far more detail in her works, esp. her [i']Encyclopedia of the Fairies[/i] (a really great book, BTW). That was kinda the whole point of Lords and Ladies, the Diskworld book with the biggest focus on elves. (And quite possibly my favorite book in the entire series, rivaled olny by The Hogfather). While it makes fun of gamer cliches, new age touchy feely paganism, goths and a bunch of other fantasy tropes that makes it good reading for most gamers, if you've actually studied old folklore it becomes even more amusing, because you'll spend a LOT of time nodding your head (while laughing) and going "Yup... that's the ticket". Thia... You really might want to consider giving Prachett another try. Either of the above books would be a good read, even if you don't follow the rest of the series. One thing Prachett is realy good at is making each book readable without relying on refering to previous books too much.. they all tie together, but can stand alone well. EDIT: To clarify... it took me SEVERAL years to get into Prachett as well, because I'm one of those purist types who likes to start at the begining of a series and work my way through, and The Light Fantastic, while it had a few amusing bits, didn't really come together for me well. Then I was stuck at an airport and the only fantasy book I could find in the airport store was one of the later Diskworld books, so Ibought it and was TOTALY hooked. I now have an almost complete collection (Witches Abroad and the newest ones are the only ones I'm lacking) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 19, 2005 Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches If you want to read about S&M Sidhe, you can always try Laurell K Hamilton's Mary Gentry series Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted November 19, 2005 Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches If you want to read about S&M Sidhe' date=' you can always try Laurell K Hamilton's Mary Gentry series [/quote'] Been there, done that, tossed it in the trash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches While talking fantasy cliches, has anyone here ever read Diana Wynne Jones' Tough Guide to Fantasyland and its companion novel, Dark Lord of Derkholm? Very barbed send-ups of 'generic' fantasy, and funny as all get-out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceTheOwl Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches I've read Dark Lord of Derkholm. You're right; funny stuff. ^ v ^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches The armies of evil will number in the hundreds of thousands' date=' possibly the millions. They will be overrunning the world like ants on sugar. The heroes will be a small band of plucky adventurers, or possibly a small army. Nonetheless, despite being rank amateurs and outnumbered by a factor of 10:1 or more, the heroes will win.[/quote'] There's a nice take on this in Mary Gentle's "Grunts". She writes something like "The Last Battle of Good against Evil is about to begin. The forces of Light are outnumbered, full of headstrong heroes devoid of tactics - but the Light's still going to win. And the Orcs - footsoldiers of evil - are going to die in their thousands. Life's a *****" She starts off with a cliché, piles more clichés on top (theiving hobbits, alien invasions, etc) and ends up with something novel. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches What's the archetype of the "devouring fool?" Sorry - crossthreading. AmadanNaBriona was writing about the "Fatal Fool" - Lady Gregory also referred to him/it as the "devouring fool". Basically the archetype is the dangerous, unpredictable character, who leads other people into perilous (sometimes fatal, but always life-changing) situations. The original Puck is one such character, but færie legends of any sort are replete with them. The Joker in DC comics could be said to be a modern version of the same idea. Basically it's a variant of the trickster archetype, but more malevolent. Loki instead of Coyote, if you like. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinDangaioh Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Elves are always running away from the world. Unicorns are symbols of nobility and purity. The past is always better and has more powerful items than the present. The best smiths/craftsmen died long ago and the current ones do not measrue up. Elf, dwarf, troll, goblin, centaur, orc IOW the standard fantasy races Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Elves are always running away from the world. Or one can kill them off. The goal is to keep the pointy eared menaces from overrunning your campaign world! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches A vicious beating around the head with a two-handed Hobbit usually does the trick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Actually, the bulk of my structure was inverting a lot of this standard stuff and going for the juggular in terms of reinterpretation. The Elves would love to run, but can't, because their link to Arcadia was severed during the last Planar War. Woops. Stupid, long lived, pointy eared gits. It's what they deserve, I tell ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches My Elves had taken over the entire world creating a golden age for Elves, with Humans as second class citizens. But then an annoying human went and changed the timeline on them ;-p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches The past is always better and has more powerful items than the present. The best smiths/craftsmen died long ago and the current ones do not measrue up. That's not a fantasy cliche: it's one of the central driving myths of the human race. It is only within the past couple of centuries that it has begun to have a serious challenger in the Myth Of The New Discovery. Prior to that, the Myth Of Ancient Knowledge was king (and there are still many who would rather take the word of an ancient compilation of myths than the verifiable discoveries of modern science). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches You forgot to add- Odin!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Regardless of the fantasy setting's theology (or lack thereof), demons exist. These demons are always pretty easy to summon and next to impossible to control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Everything is fine, dandy, and low magic until Pug shows up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Regardless of the fantasy setting's theology (or lack thereof)' date=' demons exist. These demons are always pretty easy to summon and next to impossible to control.[/quote'] This cliché I'm actually having fun with at the moment. Precisely because it is so well known, and my demons aren't demons. Which the PCs will figure out soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Regardless of the fantasy setting's theology (or lack thereof)' date=' demons exist. These demons are always pretty easy to summon and next to impossible to control.[/quote'] I happen to like this cliche, actually. And they aren't always demons, per se: in Jonathan Strange And Mr. Norrell, they're fairies/sidhe. Or would that be considered a twist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Well, again, we're dealing in terms of archetypes, and this is somewhat Faustian; you can always call on the service of the Devil - it's getting the tricky bastitch to do what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Any villain with a scar on her/his face will wear a mask that: A) covers as little as possible while both: covering the scar AND C) encircling both eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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