altamaros Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Hi Herodom. I'm designing a character (super-hero, 300 pts total) whose power is "hamfarir". hamfarir is a norse occult ability; a mix between lycanthropy and astral projection. Basically, the character is able to separate her "beast within" from herself and project it as a (solid and material) animal of her choice. Although i got no problem with the general mechanic ("astral projection" duplication as shown in FREd). I have some when it comes to simulate various animal forms this way (several altered duplicates -only one at a time ? multiform on the duplicate ? MP and shapeshift on the duplicate ?) Your thoughts ? an article mentionning hamfarir : http://marklander.ravenbanner.com/seith%20dp.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir There are two ways I would do this: 1) Duplication, with the Dupe having most of his points tied up in multiple animal Multiforms. However, this has the problem that you are not gettign full advantage from the duplicaton since it's costly AND the main body is unconscious during the whole process. 2) Simply go with Multiform for the base form, with the highly limiting disadvantage that it leaves a helpless physical body behind... at the point where two or more duplicates are completly unable to work together to accomplish a given task, the duplication is really more of a SFX then a power unto itself, since it offers no real advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir OK, are the 'animal forms' material or do they just trot around the spirit world? Does the original BODY just slump in a corner when the animal spirit is off and about or is it still able to act and react? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altamaros Posted November 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir OK' date=' are the 'animal forms' material or do they just trot around the spirit world? Does the original BODY just slump in a corner when the animal spirit is off and about or is it still able to act and react?[/quote'] The animal forms are entirely material (although i'm thinking about desolid-affacting attacks to reflect their dual nature); The original body lays unconscious somewhere, in trance. I got no problem about this part of the character (i already got an example in FREd and with Golem from Arcane Adversaries.) It's just simulate several animal spirit forms this way along with duplication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Anomaly Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir Wellllll...it's a bit of a stretch, but... Why not buy Multiform for the main character (with the various 'projected animal spirits' being the other forms) with the "Physical Manifestation" Disad? (In this case the "Physical Manifestation" is the unconcious body left behind.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir You could just summon the thing and take concentration throughout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir Wellllll...it's a bit of a stretch, but... Why not buy Multiform for the main character (with the various 'projected animal spirits' being the other forms) with the "Physical Manifestation" Disad? (In this case the "Physical Manifestation" is the unconcious body left behind.) Interesting! Normally I'd say the Phys. Manifestation has to be present and relatively obvious to the effect, but I think this is a case where it makes some sense otherwise. (Rep.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir What Dr. A said. If the original body is inert and you can only form one animal at a time, then it's just Multiform with a "Leaves vulnerable body behind" Limitation. I don't see it as a stretch at all. Now if the original body is ert, then perhaps you could go with Duplication (several duplicates, different abilities), but with Lockout (one duplicate at a time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir Just have a duplicate that has multiform. Simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir You could just summon the thing and take concentration throughout. I think this is an excellent solution myself... Summon; Must Concentrate 0DCV as long as Summoned Creature is still "Summoned" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir I think this is an excellent solution myself... Summon; Must Concentrate 0DCV as long as Summoned Creature is still "Summoned" The problem with this approach is that, once the beasty is out of perception range you are scuppered: you can not see what it sees, you can not control or order it without additional powers. I'd vote for multiform/leave vulnerably body behind/damage to spirit form reflected in damage to original body if it is just a single form at a time. Mind you it also depends: can the forms change to other forms away from the original body? If so it is going to get expensive.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir I'd go with summon for what you describe, but rather than concentrate - which leaves the caster at DCV 0, and prevents other actions, I'd suggest as side effect (-1?) in which the caster is physically immobilised until his spirit returns. That would let you use a mindlink and clairsentience to see/hear/smell what the familar does. Make the summoning slavishly loyal and you can have either a single form or many forms at a reasonable price. One caveat though - the writer of the article you liked to is doing a bit of new-agey alteration and blending of quite different traditions. In the norse legends, there's no body left behind - the change, though it often involves an animal skin or a magic cloak, is real. When Loki gets caught in Freja's falcon cloak, it's not a familiar but the real, physical Loki who has to bargain for his life. When Odin stole the mead of Kvas, it was he himself changed to a snake, then back to his own form to seduce Sutting's daughter, Gunnlod and drink the mead, and then changed to an eagle to fly back with it to Valhalla. Likewise Bjarki, who can take a bear's form and fights for the king in Hrolf's saga is said to physically change shape. Some norse "shape-strong" wizards may have had many forms (Odin did - one of his many names was Fjolnir ('many-shaped'), but most seem to have had only one. So if you want to go with the Norse approach, I'd recommend multiform. If requires some sort of ritual to change, that could easily bring the cost down to a point where it is quite affordable. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altamaros Posted November 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir Thanks for all the suggestions. The problem of summon is that the beast form must be played by the GM. The multiform approach was entirely valid in 4ed but it seems that in 5ed the official way to do this is duplication. Besides, i think the player is to save a few points to buy off the "original body in trance" limitation one day. TO Markdoc: thanks for your documented approach. Actually the player found the idea in an old article of Dragon Magazine (95 or 96 ?) and he just feels that the "astral beast projection" is an interesting twist of the classic lycanthropy case. (he's not interested in something so casual) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir The problem with this approach is that' date=' once the beasty is out of perception range you are scuppered: you can not see what it sees, you can not control or order it without additional powers.[/quote'] That's what Mind Link is for and is a completely appropriate power for this concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir That's what Mind Link is for and is a completely appropriate power for this concept. Mind link is peachy for the communication, but I don't think it is good enough to allow perception - for that you would need limited clairvoyance. Alternatively you could do it through the Mind Link this way: Spirit Wolf: Woof woof howl You: What? Problems? SW: WOOF WOOF HOWL! You: OK, let me think - I'll guess, and it is one woof for yes, two for no, OK? SW: Woof. You: Is there a problem? SW: Woof. You: Locked door? SW: Woof woof. You: You're lost? SW: Woof woof. You: Er....guards? SW: Woof. You: How many? SW: ....... You: OK, one woof for each guard SW: Woof, woof, woof, woof, woof, woof.....HOOOOOOWL You: I didn't say howl! SW: ....... You: Wolfie? SW: ....... You: oh dear..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir I'd argue that with the appropriate Mind Link, since control is EGO Based, you're not going to GET out of Perception Range for this. You could also argue that you're Summon shares a mind with you... I think I'd allow it, it's a cool enough concept IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Re: HOWTO: Hamfarir Mind link is peachy for the communication, but I don't think it is good enough to allow perception - for that you would need limited clairvoyance. Alternatively you could do it through the Mind Link this way: Spirit Wolf: Woof woof howl You: What? Problems? ... Mind Link isn't limited by language, I believe. You should be able to understand what the creature is trying to say, even if what it's trying to say is rather limited by its animal intellect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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