liquidsnake Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 This is sort of a rant so fogive me.I live with typical D&D players and I won’t play because my friend’s wife runs the games with stereotypical gamers, i.e. munchkins. There always seeking powerful weapons and magic armor at the expense of good plot, there games always take place in some dungeon you would think with all the fantasy novels they read that perhaps the king/sage/random sign post would send them to a wood or another town or something. The plot always seems to lead underground. Oh and the use of &$@*ing modules cause today they don’t have enough imagination to come up with there own stories. My problem isn’t D&D but the GMs whom try to run stories that do not reflect the very books they read. Very few fantasy novels deal with the dungeons or it is a way to get from point A to point B not the whole adventure is the dungeon. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitz Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again I think if they're having fun, then more power to them. It's a pity it's not to your taste, and it wouldn't be much to mine, but in the end the only real point of gaming is to have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Labrat Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Rare is the player who has the ability to stick through non-combat storylines... rarer still is a group who can do the same... but the rarest of the rare is the GM that can pull it off and still have it be entertaining. One should just be happy to have a group who can contribute to their hobby. I'm not saying settling for the mediocre is ok, I'm saying that finding a group of good players who can truly role-play and truly contribute to a story for more than a month is something of an albatross. If you have such a group, my guess is that you've known each other a very long time and have been of a similar mind and of similar tastes for quite a while. I just don't think that there are too many gamers out there who are also good storytellers. Ultimately the strength of a campaign usually is defined by the strength of the enemy's counterforces. Pity that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Squirrel Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again I like to throw in the dungeon crawl from time to time. But they are only fun if they are either really interesting and well made or I make them myself. I'm picky that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again They're playing the "D&D Genre" which isn't actually a fantasy genre that occurs in literature. Dungeons (other than those used in castles to lock up prisoners) are the least realistic and most stereotyped silliness of fantasy roleplaying games. It amuses me when systems include them - they're trying to emulate D&D rather than the fantasy genre. Justifications for their existance are long and dubious, or ignored entirely. As to combat - over 75% of the sessions I run has no combat in them whatsover. There is very little roleplaying in combat, there is merely wargaming - tactics, dice and numbers. Of the two D20 campaigns I'm a player in - one has combat 10% of the time (because it has a high level of medieval realism), and the other 30-40% of the time. However - I don't think "constant questing into dungeons" equates to "constant combat" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Perhaps your room-mates are building their own resonant myth-cycle? According to Joseph Campell, going underground is often equated with entering the otherworld, a realm of mystery. The Hero, who is always male, must penetrate the mysterious other through an opening... If you want a less freudian explanation, dungeons are good for lazy GMs because they channel the players. If you set an adventure in a wood or a city the players may decide to wander in all sorts of directions and do things the GM hasn't planned. If the GM can't deal with that, then the players wander around doing nothing much and get bored. If she plonks them down instead in a 10 x 10 stone passage with a ravenous Bugblatter beast at the other end, the choices are a) Fight the ravenous Bugblatter beast, or run away. Lazy players like this too - they don't have to think about their other options too much since there *aren't* any other options. You can actually use dungeons sensibly - if you use the models in fantasy literature: the mines of Moria, or Thranduil's palace in Tolkien, the palace of the Masters in Martin's Game of Thrones, any number of places in Howard's Conan stories. Of course most dungeon-bash gamers don't. My advice - find another gaming group. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Because dungeons fit on the graph paper so well? Or because dungeons, once 'cleared' are done with, with the players knowing they didnt leave any loose ends. Once every door is kicked in, and every dungeon inhabitant is slain, its over. Towns and forests rarely allow the players this sense of closure. Sure, they might defeat the plan of the evil alderman, but who knows what the apothecary might be up to? They didn't get to kick in his door, kill him, and loot his shop to forestall any potential evil he might do in the future. In my campaign world, underground settings needed a back story, just like a player character or named NPC. At a minimum, the following would need to be answered : 1) What was its original purpose/Why was it built? 2) How did the builder afford it? 3) Would less expensive surface structures have served just as well? 4) How did it come to be a place 'adventurers' might need to go? The stereotypical D&D dungeon cant explain itself in these terms, in my experience, and so seems cheesy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Rose Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again I've always wondered why anyone would want to play, face to face, something that works so much better with a computer. If you ever get a hankering for that ol' time dungeon crawl, go play some Bard's Tale, or Might and Magic, or heck, even Evercrack. But if you want to interact with other people, and roleplay, and explore a unique shared world, well then, how about we break out the Black Brick and a copy of Fantasy Hero and have ourselves an adventure? We can even make it so the world is primarily close to sea level, so there's not even a root cellar, much less a dungeon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again In my recent off-the-cuff fantasy game, I ran the players through a "dungeon" of sorts. Most of it was just the sewers for the town they were in--the underground structure was just two rooms and a hallway attached to the sewers. Why is all this underground? Well, the sewers are underground to keep the sewage away from the townsfolk, and the other stuff was built underground to keep it away from prying eyes. Zeropoint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citizen Keen Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again In an old D&D3E campaign I used to run, I had a player who was aware of the metagame easiness of a dungeon, and knew I used them when I hadn't prepared an adventure for the evening. [tangent] My GM style is very transparent - Prepared: "You must infiltrate the Earl's Court and convince him to open up the land across the River Nerele for expansion, in order to drive away the wood nymphs who are draining his domain of magic." Unprepared: "So, there's this cave..." [/tangent] He would go to the most extraordinary, in-character lengths to sidetrack a dungeon adventure. He was an easy player when I had a well-crafted adventure, but when I did a dungeon... He would go into town and try to rouse a lynch mob to go into the dungeone, he would use his magic to divert a river to drown the dungeone, he would do anything he could to destroy the dungeon without ever going in. He didn't care about the treasure - he cared about making me work for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidsnake Posted October 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again I'm kinda a drama queen when it comes roleplaying,I run my games like TV shows or movies. A scrip is writen,but only as far as events that I wish to have the players encounter but other than that the players can roam the land unfetter. With an anime bent, 26 episode game sessions,with a beginning a middle and an end, for me the days of 10yr campaign are done. This way we dont get bored and if everyone likes the game we do a second season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale A. Ward Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Snake, I really know how you feel. I pity people who get stuck in the underground rut. But, I have to admit that I used to be the same type of GM. I used to ref a regular 2ed AD&D campaign, and my players were starting to complain that their characters were suffering from a vitamin D deficiency from lack of sunlight. Fortunately, this came at about the same time that I was putting all my notes together into a huge world map, and I decided to kill two birds with one stone. I set my group to the task of charting a trade route between two major kingdoms... a near epic task on a par with the Lewis & Clark Expedition. As a result, they got plenty of above ground adventuring (with plenty of combat for those that enjoyed it) and I (with the help of some random terrain / weather / creature rolls) got a large chunk of my world map on paper. This one task took my group three years in game time and almost a year in real time, and they said it was the most enjoyable adventuring they had ever done. Unfortunately, in your case, it looks like the group in question is satisfied with the way things are going. If I really wanted to change the way this group was going so that I could enjoy playing with them, I think I'd start by looking at the GMs world map and asking what was in all the white spaces. If he/she has no answer, there's the opportunity to suggest a survey expedition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again I highly recommend the Harn Encounters document - many, many adventure ideas and not a single one is underground It's just a book of good examples for folk who have difficulty thinking outside the box (or 10x10) as to what things may happen in a medieval setting. I've already used a couple of ideas in my own campaign when between scripted plot elements... Here's a review of it- http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9317.phtml You can download it here (it's called 101 Encounters) http://www.lythia.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownload&cid=8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxiMan Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again He would go into town and try to rouse a lynch mob to go into the dungeone' date=' he would use his magic to divert a river to drown the dungeone, he would do anything he could to destroy the dungeon without ever going in.[/quote'] LOL! Cracked me up because I do these things too! We've flooded dungeons, used (abused) explosives the DM allowed us (unlimited wealth + oil of impact formula = 55 gallon drums of the stuff) and altitude to bomb "pits into other dimensions", and rounded up legions of the faithful to surround, isolate, and utterly kill dungeons. The abuses of the game were hilarious and we all enjoyed it immensely! I'm not sure the DM liked it as much as we did, but he went along. Great fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again I've been hankering to run a third-or-so-generation-since-humankind-crashed-on-this-planet-in-disasterous-conditions-and-lost-all/most-technology-in-the-race-to-survive-while-knowing-next-to-nothing-about-the-world type fantasy adventure recently. That could be fun, and entail not only unique native life, but completely uncharted and unknown terrain, above and/or belowground as you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard00 Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again It may or may not help, but you could always remind your GM that "dungeon crawls" don't necessarily have to be in dungeons. You could explore an old castle, a wild and untamed forest, desert rock formations, and the like. Not all "dungeons" are underground, after all. Personally, the occassional dungeon crawl (using the term loosely) is okay with me, but I can't for the life of me stand adventures based around 'em. Heck, in my old AD&D campaign my GM and I often went several sessions with absolutely no combat or dungeon crawling. Just plain ol' fashioned role playing, storytelling, dialogue and plot advancement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again If you want a real dungeon, use these maps- http://www.thebanmappingproject.com Actually - I'm tempted to make a random tomb generator using the parts of the actual tombs there. Do you think Gygax got the idea for dungeons from Egyptian tombs? The number of traps that occur in Fantasy Dungeons certainly makes me think that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Let's face it. A lot of people these days are looking for a system where they can play Tabletop Diablo, which pretty much sums up the described situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Anomaly Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again If you want a real dungeon, use these maps- http://www.thebanmappingproject.com Actually - I'm tempted to make a random tomb generator using the parts of the actual tombs there. Do you think Gygax got the idea for dungeons from Egyptian tombs? The number of traps that occur in Fantasy Dungeons certainly makes me think that. A number of years ago, I had a random crossword puzzle generator -- it took a list of words (the answers) and then would generate a random crossword puzzle based on those words. The way a lot of dungeons are laid out on graph paper, I could probably use that to generate the dungeon corridors and then just stick a room at each corridor end. I wonder where I put that program...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again A number of years ago, I had a random crossword puzzle generator -- it took a list of words (the answers) and then would generate a random crossword puzzle based on those words. The way a lot of dungeons are laid out on graph paper, I could probably use that to generate the dungeon corridors and then just stick a room at each corridor end. I wonder where I put that program...? Heh. Except in this case you don't even have to worry about matching letters! This dungeon stuff should be a piece of cake! Actually, I think there is already a freeware dungeon generator out there. I'll have to look for it again sometime. Eh. I know half the fun is doing it yourself, anyway (it's on my list of things to do in the next few years or decades). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again There are MANY random dungeon generators. I just thought it would be interesting to do one using clipart of actual tombs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThothAmon Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again I'm not a fan of dungeons (I prefer political intrigue) and think they have no place in a campaign other than as a receptacle for masochistic players who like a bit of pain for their PCs I have run one and only one dungeon mini-campaign. The entire game world was set underground (no surface access at all) and featured a heavily tailored biosphere, history and social background. Think of it as 'Lost' meets Tolkien's Mines Of Moria mixed with the Village from 'The Prisoner' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again I had a dungeon that was a metaphor for the Sephiroth - the tree of life. But that probably doesn't count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again For more plausible underground settings, head over to the Pulp Hero board and check out the links in the Egyptian Valley of Kings thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidsnake Posted November 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again I'm not a fan of dungeons (I prefer political intrigue) and think they have no place in a campaign other than as a receptacle for masochistic players who like a bit of pain for their PCs I have run one and only one dungeon mini-campaign. The entire game world was set underground (no surface access at all) and featured a heavily tailored biosphere, history and social background. Think of it as 'Lost' meets Tolkien's Mines Of Moria mixed with the Village from 'The Prisoner' That sounds like fun, more of a underground world. Also I've never belived in the random wandering monster that populates every dungeon in fantasy, doesn't seem realistic to me (and just because its fantasy it should make some sense)not just "we Orcs found open hole in ground with traps,we move in here to ambush stupid,greedy thieveing dungeon divers. I wouldn't move into a dark dungeon with traps,so why would would other creatuers do it? Ok the wizard could put them there but some dungeons dont get found for thousands of years the creatures would fight each other and eat one another.By the time a party got in there the traps (most of them) would be sprung,kind of like walking through Moria in LOTR...big empty space no traps (goblins and Balrog did move in though) but they were the only threats.Moria was a short cut in LOTR not the whole book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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