Guest daeudi_454 Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Putting this here because Star Hero has more use for it... There are maneuvers for Martial Arts, for ranged fighting, even for Bricks. Fliers, whether supers or in Snub fighters, need more options than move by and move through. Unless these are published in a book I haven't bought yet - anyone want to help me come up with them? For instance: how about an immelman? DCV bonus? Phases? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starwolf Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Re: Dogfighting I agree, I think developing these manuevers would be tre-cool. Immelman, inside loop, outside loop, split s, and my favorite from Wing Commander the "Afterburner Slide".....now to develop some stat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Seeman Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Re: Dogfighting I wrote an article in Digital Hero #19 called Piloting Maneuvers. I basically took the custom martial arts structure from UMA and applied it to piloting a fighter, so you can do Grab Bys with a tractor beam, straffing maneuvers and the like. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomsdave Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 Re: Dogfighting I wrote an article in Digital Hero #19 called Piloting Maneuvers. I basically took the custom martial arts structure from UMA and applied it to piloting a fighter' date=' so you can do Grab Bys with a tractor beam, straffing maneuvers and the like. Check it out.[/quote'] Yeppers, that be it Excellen:D:D. Now all I have to do is build styles. Hmm... inside of a gravity well I can think of another element (2?)... dive and climb- altitude and movement traded for DCV, or some other way of depicting Energy. Suggestions Ben? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daeudi_454 Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Re: Dogfighting That was exactly what I was looking for! Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Seeman Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Re: Dogfighting Hmm... inside of a gravity well I can think of another element (2?)... dive and climb- altitude and movement traded for DCV' date=' or some other way of depicting [b']Energy[/b]. Suggestions Ben? What do you mean by "Energy"? Are you referring to kinetic energy? And what would be the purpose of depicting it; what kind of combat affect are you trying to recreate? As far as diving and climbing; it's tough playing in three dimensions although it is possible to simulate it. I would assume that in a climb you'd suffer a DCV and movement penalty because you lose maneuverability and velocity as you go ballistic whereas in a dive you'd gain a DCV and movement bonus as you gain manueverability and velocity because your relative airspeed is increasing thanks to gravity and you have more airflow over the ailerons. What those penalties/bonuses should be, I'm not quite sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Seeman Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Re: Dogfighting That was exactly what I was looking for! Thanks. Glad it worked for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Re: Dogfighting What do you mean by "Energy"? Are you referring to kinetic energy? And what would be the purpose of depicting it; what kind of combat affect are you trying to recreate? Total energy, both kinetic and potential. In World War II dogfights, Energy was an important tactical consideration in a dogfight, because having more increased your options. If you have lots of kinetic energy, you can trade it for potential energy, and climb faster than just having your engine pull you up. If you have lots of potential energy, you can trade it for kinetic energy and exceed your plane's normal top speed. If you're below your opponent and moving slowly, you're in trouble. Of course, in these days of over-the-horizon guided missiles, air-to-air combat takes on a different flavor. Zeropoint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daeudi_454 Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Re: Dogfighting Total energy, both kinetic and potential. In World War II dogfights, Energy was an important tactical consideration in a dogfight, because having more increased your options. If you have lots of kinetic energy, you can trade it for potential energy, and climb faster than just having your engine pull you up. If you have lots of potential energy, you can trade it for kinetic energy and exceed your plane's normal top speed. If you're below your opponent and moving slowly, you're in trouble. Of course, in these days of over-the-horizon guided missiles, air-to-air combat takes on a different flavor. Zeropoint Bingo- Air Energy is both potential and kinetic energy- A fast moving high altitude plane has high energy, a plane loses energy as it climbs, gains in a dive. lose energy, you stall out, lose DCV, etc. True, its pretty much a moot point with modern fighters, but starfighters almost never use missiles (except to hit the vent to blow up the DS), and it would still be useful for Winged or inherent fliers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Re: Dogfighting Drawn from my knowledge of Air Combat Wargaming, here's a list of possible maneuvers to get you started: Slip/Sideslip Skid Snap roll (bank faster) Slat-assisted turn (requires a/c with slats!) Flap-assisted turn (speed-limited unless a/c has combat flaps) Dive bomb (requires a/c with dive brakes for best results!) Vertical Roll (aka aileron turn)/Immelmann Split-S Barrel roll Corkscrew Unloaded dive Negative-G turn Hammerhead/Tailslide Cobra (requires MiG-29!) Viffing (requires AV-8/Harrier!) Terrain-following For space combat, some of these are not applicable, but other fancy moves become possible. For example, in the new series of Battlestar Galactica, one of the Cylons that was being pursued flipped so it was flying backwards, but it could then fire "forwards" at its pursuer. Can't do that in atmosphere! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Re: Dogfighting My comment here would be that for starfighters there is completely different three dimensional context than that for atmosphere bound vehicles. Unless a starfighter dogfight is taking place near a gravity well then there is no difference to direction changes in any of the three dimensions - this might mean that some of the manoeuvres that prove effective in aircraft will not be as useful in space combat... Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daeudi_454 Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Re: Dogfighting For space combat' date=' some of these are not applicable, but other fancy moves become possible. For example, in the new series of Battlestar Galactica, one of the Cylons that was being pursued flipped so it was flying backwards, but it could then fire "forwards" at its pursuer. Can't do that in atmosphere![/quote'] hehehe! I once did that in a Robotech game as I was skimming the edge the atmosphere. I toasted the Zentraedi on my tail, but ended up ripping off my wings as I hit the friction. Alas, I failed my eject roll. (not that my character had a prayer of surviving re-entry anyway.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Re: Dogfighting Has anybody here taken a look at Chapter 8 of The Ultimate Vehicle? Steve and I cover a lot of this in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daeudi_454 Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Re: Dogfighting Has anybody here taken a look at Chapter 8 of The Ultimate Vehicle? Steve and I cover a lot of this in there. Unless these are published in a book I haven't bought yet - anyone want to help me come up with them? I wrote an article in Digital Hero #19 called Piloting Maneuvers. The DH#19 was great! The question popped into my head after watching a show about dogfights on the History Channel. I then realized that very few games cover this in depth at all. Hadn't bought UV yet mainly because there is little need for it in the games I am in or run... That and I figured it was mostly rehash of FRED and StarHero. (Not that I have anything against rehashes- I bought and love the Equipment book!) Does Ultimate Vehicle cover Air Energy? Or go even more in depth into Aerial Maneuvers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrath Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Re: Dogfighting There are a few interesting maneuvers in GURPS:Lensman. These were all cinematic space-opera type maneuvers. The "Follow The Leader" maneuver re-enacted the scene in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK when Han Solo dives the Millennium Falcon into the asteroid field, hotly pursued by TIE fighters. The pursued ship choses a penalty to the starship piloting roll. Each pursuing ship choses between accepting the penalty or chickening out by breaking off pursuit. Failure to make the roll results in ship damage or destruction. If the pursued ship fails by just a little, or the pursuing ship make their roll by a lot, the pursuing ship get bonuses to their attack rolls. The "Reversal" maneuver re-enacts the stale old Battlestar Galactica gag. While being chased, hit your reverse thrusters, let the bad guys leap frog you, then attack their rear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christougher Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Re: Dogfighting Which isn't all that surprising when I went back to the beginning of the Star Hero forums for ideas, and this thread GAVE me the idea that I'm posting now... Using martial or standard maneuvers to give some flavor to dogfighting is nothing new (see this thread) but in reading it I was struck with an idea: In a dogfight, tailing your opponent is considered to be the better position, and a lot of thought and effort goes into making this work. My idea is simple: the Grab maneuver. The "grabbed" victim is being tailed by the attacker until such time as the Grab is broken. I haven't yet come up with an effective device for breaking the grab, though opposed Combat Piloting rolls come to mind. The half DCV penalty when grabbing explains why you have wingmen taking easy shots at the pursuers. I'm still working on fleshing this idea out, comments and suggestions are welcome! Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Re: Dogfighting Great idea. How about using Movement Power AP instead of STR? While raw speed isn't important, the power of your engine is... Other things like trip can also work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Onassiss Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Re: Dogfighting I put a few of these in Terracide for use in space combat, but they weren't "dogfighting" maneuvers as such. Mainly because space combat in my campaign doesn't conform to the "Sopwith Camels In Spaaace!" paradigm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted April 14, 2012 Report Share Posted April 14, 2012 Re: Dogfighting My comment here would be that for starfighters there is completely different three dimensional context than that for atmosphere bound vehicles. Unless a starfighter dogfight is taking place near a gravity well then there is no difference to direction changes in any of the three dimensions - this might mean that some of the manoeuvres that prove effective in aircraft will not be as useful in space combat... Doc I had written up some maneuvers at some point, with a separate list for "zero-g" maneuvers. Many maneuvers from atmospheric dogfighting could still work in space, but they would be more easily countered, etc. A lot of dogfighting techniques rely on using gravity to your advantage. Can't find it now, searched forums and all, could have sworn I posted them. "Of all the things I've lost in life, I miss my mond the most." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeglan Posted February 12, 2013 Report Share Posted February 12, 2013 Re: Dogfighting i wonder what WWII manuevers would look like with no up or down but still atmospheric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Re: Dogfighting i wonder what WWII manuevers would look like with no up or down but still atmospheric. They wouldn't be very interesting, since most WWII maneuvers aside from the Thach weave involve vertical movement. Split-Ss, Immelmans, loops, yo-yos, Cuban eights, and the tried-and-true tactic of diving passes all involve the vertical plane. Once you squish it down to 2-D all you have is lead and lag pursuit, and maybe barrel rolls. That said a lot of these maneuvers are maneuvers because of gravity and the close proximity of a planetary surface. In space-based 'flight sims' I've played, the third dimension becomes less important--there are no speed differences that you get from facing a particular direction, so all you're doing is turning as hard as possible to point your craft at the target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeglan Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Re: Dogfighting Not what i meant. Still 3d. but no gravity. IE no energy management. Diving does not increase velocity and climbing does not decrease speed. but otherwise things work as in WW2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christougher Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Re: Dogfighting You could still follow the motions to perform the maneuvers, they still look the same, they just don't have the same level of effect. The reasons those maneuvers work is because of the tradeoffs in speed and altitude. A hammerhead stall in space is not going to cause a stall; though its twists and turns might provide some defensive benefit. Similarly with a split-s, unless your craft has distinctly different turning capacities along different axes (something HERO doesn't reflect), you're just turning around. Hmm. Makes me think that when I go back to atmospheric dogfighting maneuvers, adding a new category for plus and minus flight speed would be interesting. The Wing Commander games had a brief bit on some tactics for the player, though they weren't that great. Sit and Spin and Sit and Kick are the only ones I remember - come to a dead stop and turn. Then again it did pay off *once* when I couldn't find a stealthed fighter. Sat and waited until it came up behind me, then spun and fed it a dumb fire missile. They also had the Shelton Slide, a feature to lock forward acceleration while freeing movement controls - you could spin 180 degrees behind yourself to fire at a target in a different direction than you were heading. The naming coming from the pilot who slid sideways past a carrier deck firing on all the parked craft. Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeglan Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Re: Dogfighting wôuldn't happen to have HD prefabs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeglan Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Re: Dogfighting I had written up some maneuvers at some point' date=' with a separate list for "zero-g" maneuvers. Many maneuvers from atmospheric dogfighting [i']could[/i] still work in space, but they would be more easily countered, etc. A lot of dogfighting techniques rely on using gravity to your advantage. Can't find it now, searched forums and all, could have sworn I posted them. "Of all the things I've lost in life, I miss my mond the most." any hd prefabs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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