Growing Up Polytheistic

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

In the era of the patriarchs' date=' as recounted in Genesis 12-50, God is not described as "jealous." His primary demand is circumcision.[/quote']

 

Ick. Yes, Jehovah demanded ritual genital mutilation. As disgusting and barbaric as that is, and as hard as it is to imagine that anyone would consent to it, there are still primitive societies today where that is practiced. It turns my stomach, but it's true.

 

That sort of thing doesn't usually make its way into role-playing games, thank the gods.

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

True - I believe most roleplaying games do tend to disney-up whatever source material they use.

Just have a look at druids, after all

[tkdguy]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

True - I believe most roleplaying games do tend to disney-up whatever source material they use.

Just have a look at druids, after all

I remember 1st Edition AD&D, where druids were only useful for summoning small creatures so the fighters could get some target practice.

 

Okay, not really. But it actually was a joke in Dragon Magazine. It was an entry in a "what type of adventurer are you?" sort of test.

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

The pagans in the Thief computer games are actually closer to what the druids were like... all blood, fear and forest.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Real world religions really have nothing that is the equivalent of D&D religions' date=' where every person [i']believes in all the gods but worships only one[/i]. All real-world polytheistic religions I know of don't prohibit you from paying homage multiple of their gods in the appropriate context. The god you ask for a plentiful harvest may not be the same god you ask for peaceful relations with your neighbor, or a financial turn of fortune.

To be honest, I wonder whether the D&D paradigm is something that humans can think in real terms. The beings cited are certianly powerful, but none of them seem to be gods under any rational definition of the term.

 

(The question of whether the term "god" can be rationally defined is best left to NGD.)

 

The Greeks and Romans did not get the chance to leave behind a coherent picture of their worldview. we only have a few of their religious writiings -- an immense amount of material was either lost or deliberately destroyed by the Christians (in the post-Constantine Roman Empire, when the new State Religion put a great deal of effort into eliminating its competitors) and Muslims (who destoyed the Library of Alexandira for the final time and took a very dim view of pagan writings). So we don't really know what they thought on a practical level, or what it meant to them.

[Mister E]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

To be honest' date=' I wonder whether the D&D paradigm is something that humans [i']can[/i] think in real terms. The beings cited are certianly powerful, but none of them seem to be gods under any rational definition of the term.

 

(The question of whether the term "god" can be rationally defined is best left to NGD.)

 

The Greeks and Romans did not get the chance to leave behind a coherent picture of their worldview. we only have a few of their religious writiings -- an immense amount of material was either lost or deliberately destroyed by the Christians (in the post-Constantine Roman Empire, when the new State Religion put a great deal of effort into eliminating its competitors) and Muslims (who destoyed the Library of Alexandira for the final time and took a very dim view of pagan writings). So we don't really know what they thought on a practical level, or what it meant to them.

The Athar Faction from the Planescape AD&D setting addressed this. They reasoned that the gods weren't really gods: just immeasurably powerful individuals.

[i3ullseye]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

First some background... I am a Buddhist, and my eventual goal is to teach comparative theology at a university level. I have studied just about every cult, occult, religion and philosophy I can get my hands on since I was about 10 years old. And yet, I am NOT going to continue to poke holes in any real world religious discussions here.

 

That is best left for other venues.

 

But, for all that. a few things to point out that might be worth considering if you are really looking to add a complex and diverse cosmology and pantheon to a campaign.

 

Let's look at the statement that Satan or Mary are deities in modern Christianity. Clearly this is NOT what the Catholics believe, but it IS how they are painted by contemporaries who disagree with them. Even though they share a common faith foundation, they still interpret things drastically differrently.

 

Another common misperception is that Judaism is/has always been monotheistic. Nothing could be farther form the truth. Not only the references of their sacrifices to Azazel to allow free passage of the desert, but also the reference to G-d being a jealous god (of what? the question begs). In todays world we have assumed the phrase monotheism, and it has stuck in order to make differring religions get along.

 

The same could be said for Hindu. Each fo their major gods is often a seperate avatar of one god. Not only that, ALL their gods exist in a differrent plane of existence, so there is no needed 'proof' of Krishna or Vishnu ever stepping foot on earth. They exist on a higher plane of existance and are very real and vibrant for their worshippers. Many Hindu believe in only ONE god, with various incarnations and manifestations. This is what Ghandi believed BTW.

 

Many Buddhists are technically atheists, but many more are monotheists or polytheists. If you want to represent a great religious reference in agame, then you have to consider how they will adapt when they come into contact with each other. The Parsi fairht is still very alive and well (Freddy Mercury of Queen was Zoroastrian BTW) and since they are a religion of shepherds who put their dog and their flock above all else, it is easy to see their influence on the Judeo Christian bible.

 

The lord if my shepherd? The Psalm is almost word for word pulled form the original Zoroastrian. But this doesn;t lessen it for either faith, and you have to consider that also.

 

Once thing that always felt flat to me in many games was the pure Polytheism that had hold of everything. For as cool as Krynn was, there was no real conflict or doubt there. Everyone accepted all the gods, but had their chosen favorite.

 

The technical definition for true Judaism, and many other forms of 'monotheism' is actually Henotheism. Henotheism is the acceptance that many gods exists, but your god is the chosen god for you and your people. Thus the compacts with Moses and Abraham.

 

To make them interestign however, you can base entire religions on the same core stories, but perceive them drastically different. The gnostics think Jesus and Lucifer/Satan are one and the same... they paint YHVH as an imposter, and not the true creator/father.

 

Another consideration is heaven adn hell. Many of the polytheistic faiths had a heavena dn a hell, and honestly D&D did very well with the planes of existence for this. But you can always use real world for more inspiration here, and consider how these concepts evolve...and for that matter WHY they evolve.

 

In Judaism there is no hell. No reference in the Old Testament speaks of hell. Actually a few references refer to the Greek Mythos underworld, but the basic accepted truth was when you died, you were dead. Let's look at what the Vatticine council did with that one. The concept of a fiery hell originates in Islam, and Mohommed spoke of it often. So powerful was the idea of an eternal damnation, and so strong a control tool it could be for the masses, it was deemed truth by the Vatican.

 

In a game world, is there a central authority that coudl make sweeping changes like this? Is there a reason behind it, like a war or perhaps a plague/famine? If there is a major disaster, how does the central church spin it? And how does this impact their interaction with the neighboring religions?

[Mister E]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

One of the smartest things Buddha did, was not speculate on metaphysical topics like the nature of the afterlife, or god(s).

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

So, did someone else invent karma and reincarnation?

[i3ullseye]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Karma and Reincarnation are Hindu beliefs, and Gotama never really spoke much about them. The term used was 'topics that tended not to edification' to paraphrase.

 

Strict reading of the true words of Gotama... there were no gods. There was no heaven or hell. Karma and reincarnation can not exists in the sense they are perceived today, since nothing is truly real. Since there is no individual self, how can a non-thing be reincarnated into another non-thing? How can it carry the weight of ones previous deeds?

 

Oddly, Physics and Buddhism is starting to align quite a bit the more we understand.

 

Physics: Energy can never be created or destroyed, and physical mass is made up of the smaller energy particles.

Buddhism: The universe is one whole.

 

Physics: Time is realtive to the observer, and not static or linear.

Buddhism: If all is illusion, there is truly no future or past. Just differreing perceptions fo the shared delusion.

 

Physics: More biology really, but when a body decomposes, it's nutrients go itno the earth and then the plants... and when eaten can form the basis of a new physical body in a mother.

Buddhism: Everything is a cycle of birth-life-death-changing-rebirth-etc..

 

Physics: Energy is neither created or destroyed, but changes form. When a body dies, the energy is dispersed into the surroundings. A developing child, and all living beings, draw those energies form their surroundings.

Buddhism: See above...... Everything is a cycle of birth-life-death-changing-rebirth-etc..

 

Certainly, there are some MAJOR differrences, but it is odd that at their roots, much eastern philosophy and modern science tend to reinforce each other.

 

That is something else to consider to make a game complex and rich in detail. How do the non-religious types perceive the 'obvious' signs of divinity? Most expecially, how do those who use magic perceive how things occur? What is their reasoning behind their ability to cast magic, and the ability for a 'supposed' god to come down and influence the real world?

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

It is an interesting question.

 

I can only speak for my setting, which has a unified general theory of magic ;-p

The Gods are pretty much just "evolved wizards" and magic - secular and divine - is generated (and/or controlled) from belief (and tecthnically - sentients). Users of magic are born with a mutation that allows them to perceive or utilise the magic field. The Gods are so magical, that belief influences them as well.

[Lucius]

Growing Up Polytheistic

 

So' date=' did someone else invent karma and reincarnation?[/quote']

 

Yes. Karma and reincarnation were already part of the religious culture that the Buddha arose in, and Buddhists just held onto the ideas that were already around rather than jettisoning them. Just as Christians held onto ideas from both the Jewish and Pagan cultures that formed the cultural matrix Christianity arose in.

 

To get back on-topic, these real-world examples give you a diversity of models for a fantasy world. That is, if in your world you have a philosopher or prophet who came to change or correct the people's religious practices, there are several ways their followers and descendents might interact with those who follow the "old ways." In Tibet for example there are STILL people who follow the traditional Tibetan religion of Bon and have never converted to Buddhism. As far as I ever heard, there was (Except for long ago when the Buddhists first came) and is no friction there; even though for centuries the head of state of Tibet was a Buddhist religious figure, the Dalai Lama (who is still technically their leader in exile.) Contrariwise, the relationship between Christians and Jews in Europe has often been violent.

 

But note, even where differing religious opinions are accomodated, there may be conflict in some times or some places; in China the "Three Teachings" of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism were usually regarded as each bringing unique but valid ideas to the culture, but there were times either Buddhists or Taoists, or specific sects among them, were persecuted. And even the Christians in Europe couldn't maintain a bloody pogrom against the Jews ALL the time; if they had, the surviving Jews would all have fled to the more hospitable Moslem lands. (Yes, at one time a Jew was much better off living under an Arab ruler than a European one. Ironic isn't it?) As it is, I don't know why any stayed - countries that treat their Jews that way don't deserve to have any.

 

Another thing to keep in mind. Conflict preserves differences; peace erases differences. After centuries of no conflict and much contact, one of the reasons so few realize there are Tibetans who aren't Buddhists is simply that there is no longer much difference in their actual behavior.

 

A final note, more specifically on topic.

 

Monotheism makes for religious conflict. Polytheism tends to be a lot more accomodating. Look at my Tibetan example; imagine a Pope who is also an emperor, but under whom Protestants and Jews have the same, or nearly the same, civil rights as Catholics. That would be the Dalai Lama. Almost unthinkable in the West, isn't it?

 

Before you point out how persecuting the Romans could be, remember that they were often motivated by politics. They went after the Druids because the Druids were preaching resistance and revolt to the Celts*; and even after their crackdown on the Dyonysiacs who were accused of harboring criminal conspiracies under cover of religious Mysteries, the Roman senate permitted the ancient Dyonysiac practices to continue - under certain regulations meant to prevent the abuses from recurring.

 

The above referenced "D&D model of Polytheism" is actually the product of people with a monotheistic mindset trying to imagine a polytheistic culture; thus the idea of beleiving in multiple Gods, but devoting all of one's worship, prayer, and religious activity, to one and "forsaking all others." The idea of having a spiritual relationship with more than one higher being is so alien to some people raised in a monotheistic culture, it doesn't even occur to them. Their God is irrationally jealous, so they think every God must be that way.

 

Well, I think I've rambled enough for one post.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

* The palindromedary inserts a footnote; that is, the Druids were preaching TO the Celts exhorting them (the Celts) to resist and rebel against the Romans. That is, they were preaching to the Celts about resisting Romans, not preaching at anyone to resist the Celts. That would be silly. Confounded English language.

[assault]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

The way I would handle things would be quite simple: you venerate/worship the spirits/gods that protect your family/clan/tribe, your city, and, when one exists, the empire. Generally speaking, rituals of this type would be carried out by relevant community leaders - family heads at the lowest level, kings and things at the higher level.

 

In certain cases professional priests might be involved.

 

Cultists who refuse to participate in normal social functions are likely to face consequences, whose seriousness may vary.

 

Foreigners are either worshipping your gods under strange names, or are engaged in meaningless mumbo-jumbo. Or, in a very few cases, are worshipping real gods that you haven't heard about yet.

 

Magic: well... the whole point of worshipping gods is for them to protect you, isn't it? If you don't, they won't. If you do, they will, or at least might. They won't teach you to throw fireballs, though. If you go into battle without divine protection, you will lose.

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

I do think a lot of this discussion is just us rehashing what has already been described in detain in the actual Fantasy Hero book.

[Markdoc]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

There's lots of different ways of handling this - in my current game, everyone acknowledges the big Twelve dieties, plus one rather less important diety, but not everyone actively worships all of them. Most people belong to a cult that venerates a specific deity - so warriors generally belong to a local cult of the Horned Man, the warrior's favourite god. They acknowledge that the Butterfly Girl exists, but so what? What's she got to do with their lives? The advantages to belonging to a smaller cult are simply that it provides a social and religious network that is closer and more relevant to them.

 

That allows me to have polytheistic religions but still indulge in cross-cult politics and intrigue. It's not unrealistic either. As noted, in the Roman empire, people often identified and worshipped far more with one cult than others. That didn't lead them to claim that they had the one and only truth - simply that the amount of energy and the cost of involved in being a participating member of one cult left little time for being involved with others, so you chose the one that suited you best.

 

It's not so big a step from there to a monotheistic-style bigotry, if you wanted to run things that way. If gods really did interfere with daily life - and some of them were distinctively nasty - I can see the heads of other religions deciding the worshippers of those gods had to go.

 

You can find a model for virtually any kind of religious practice in history if you look

 

cheers,Mark

[tkdguy]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

The WFRP game has a polytheistic culture, although there are priests devoted to one god. There's some friction between the followers of Ulric and those who worship Sigmar, but that's motivated by politics not religion.

[Roland]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

In Judaism there is no hell. No reference in the Old Testament speaks of hell. Actually a few references refer to the Greek Mythos underworld' date=' but the basic accepted truth was when you died, you were dead. Let's look at what the Vatticine council did with that one. The concept of a fiery hell originates in Islam, and Mohommed spoke of it often. So powerful was the idea of an eternal damnation, and so strong a control tool it could be for the masses, it was deemed truth by the Vatican.[/quote']

 

In pre-exilic Judaism, there was no hell in the sense of a place of punishment, but there was Sheol, the place of the dead. In 1 Samual 28, for instance, Saul persuades a medium to conjure the spirit of the prophet Samuel from the dead. During and after the exile, some Jews absorbed Zoroastrian beliefs regarding the afterlife - i.e., eternal reward or punishment. For the most part, the Pharisees (and their successors, the rabbis) accepted this innovation, while the Sadducees did not.

 

The Christians inherited Pharisaic ideas regarding the afterlife. In the Gospels there are frequent references to Gehenna, usually translated into English as hell. Gehenna was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem, filled with the heat and stench of decomposing organic matter - that was how the early Christians imagined hell. Jesus explicitly mentions fire in the context of hell, e.g., "It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43).

 

Islamic ideas of hell came from Christianity, not vice versa. In fact, much insight into early Islam can be gained by viewing it as a Christian heresy. The Catholic Church officially condemned Islam as a heresy, which implies recognition of its Christian origins.

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Roland again.