Growing Up Polytheistic

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

The trick is, to have someone come back from the afterlife and say "don't be bad - or this happens"...

 

I must admit though - when I was being brought up as a non-Catholic Christian, I did regard the Catholics with their saints, as polytheistic. And I wasn't the only Christian who thought so at the time.

[OddHat]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Hard to be a non-believer in a world where prayers are clearly answered by repeatable miracles, and where the gods come around and throw rocks through the windows of Atheists.

 

The strange part is that open Atheists are so rare in our world, but then that's a subject for very thick books.

 

Or a one liner. Something like "That's people for you." Whichever.

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Ah well - the only Human athiests in my campaign are wizards. Possibly because the original gods used to be wizards

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

My homebrew fantasy world has lots of gods, but any given person will probably only know a handful of them. Generally speaking, worship of the gods in that world goes something like this:

 

Each person usually has a particular deity (or, very rarely, a small group of closely-associated deities) with whom they identify most strongly and view as "their" god or goddess; usually this is a deity related to their profession or career, or sometimes their outlook on life. This is the deity they pray to most often.

 

Most people, though, will pray and/or make a small offering to a "specialist" god when the situation calls for it. For example, in our world, if you have a problem with your pipes, you don't call a vet, you call a plumber. Likewise, though a farmer might worship Talia, the Goddess of the Harvest, if he and his wife were having a difficult time having a child, he might pray to Toma (one of the fertility gods) or to Rayelda or Wynneth (both of whom are fertility goddesses).

 

Most of the gods and goddesses in my fantasy world aren't so jealous they expect their worshippers to pray to them, and only them, for everything. There are a few exceptions, of course, but by and large that's the case. Now a priest of a given god had better think twice before he decides to seek help from another deity -- after all, the priest is supposed to have a much closer relationship with his deity than the average worshipper! That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but that it's a much more rare occurance.

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Most of the gods and goddesses in my fantasy world aren't so jealous they expect their worshippers to pray to them' date=' and [i']only[/i] them, for everything.

 

That reminds me of a verse, actually that tells us the name of the Judao-Christian god-

 

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:

[Mister E]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

One fun problem with polytheism, is that when you have decided that, "Yes, there are many many personifiable gods and goddesses out there," (assigning a sex to the divine is bizarre but natural), how do you then go about describing manifest attributes to these beings descended from Aether?

 

Isn't it true that the God (I AM), in the minds of its worshippers, is a composite of many images and thought-forms? He/it is a constellation composed of visions of the afterlife, burning bushes, Jesus, the image Adam was made from, Charlton Helston, sunbeams bursting through clouds on the desert horizon, and an infinite other memories, imaginations, and experiences. The plurality of God is addressed throughout the Bible, over and over again. What exactly is an angel supposed to be, anyhow, but a divine being that personifies some quality/attribute of God? How exactly is this different from the treatment Hermes/Mercury receives in the Greek/Roman myths? In short, I think it is impossible to completely objectively conceive of a god, without resorting to elements of polytheism in some fashion. What is the deal with Hell and the Devil, after all? Why isn't Jehovah/YHWH/I Am the god of the Egyptians too, when featured in Exodus? That's not very omni-whatever.

 

(This is rich. I just googled "ahura mazda," and got image results. Oh the comedy.)

 

I don't really know much about Zoroastrianism (because there doesn't seem to be much surviving knowledge of it); but isn't it a precurser to the dualistic monotheism of the Judaeo-Christian God? Why don't they talk about that in church? It's kind of like how the name Allah is generic for "the god", but in Mohammed's time was used in reference to Hubal, a moon god and leader of a pagan Arabian pantheon... and this is why moon symbols are so present in Islamic flags, mosques, and such.

 

In truth, the instant you name a god, you are assigning it attributes (belief constructs in the mind) it really doesn't have, or that are false in their ability to capture the quintessence of Cosmos.

 

The true nature of a god must always be elusive to mortals; a thing of titanic glory that just escapes mankind's grasp; or would destroy man if it was revealed in its entirety. Some of my favorite bits from various myth-stories, are those where some mortal (like Semele, or Moses) demands to gaze apon a god's true nature, and is destroyed because of it, or is denied the privilage because of the certain doom that would result.

 

18 Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."

 

19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

 

21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."

 

 

 

~ Mister E (Born-again hard)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

That reminds me of a verse, actually that tells us the name of the Judao-Christian god-

 

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:

Hmm. I have never thought of it this way before, but that verse actually implies that there are other gods out there; the, "faithful," are just not allowed to worship them.

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Yehah. But you have to realise that - like history - it was written over a long period of time. You can't just summarise "the Bible says this" and give a generic statement because the Bible says different, contradictory, things in other chapters.

 

Multiple gods is an example - early in the OT there is more mention of other gods, which is later denied towards the end of the OT and in the NT. Although that is generalising the distribution of contradictory verses. Here is a quick summary-

 

Verses about (or that imply) multiple gods-

Gen.1:26, Gen.3:22, Gen.11:7, Ex.12:12, Ex.15:11, Ex.18:11, Ex.20:3, Ex.22:20, Ex.22:28, Ex.23:13, Ex.23:24, Ex.23:32, Ex.34:14, Dt.6:14-15, Num.33:4, Jg.11:24, 1 Sam.6:5, 1 Sam.28:13, Ps.82:1, Ps.82:6, Ps.86:8, Ps.96:4, Ps.97:7, Ps.136:2, Jer.1:16, Jer.10:11, Zeph.2:11, Jn.10:33-34, 1 Jn.5:7

 

Verses about (or that imply) only one god-

Dt.4:35, Dt.4:39, Dt.6:4, Dt.32:39, Is.43:10, Is.44:8, Is.45:5-6, Is.46:9, Mk.12:29, Mk.12:32, Jn.17:3, 1 Cor.8:6

 

The more astute will realise this list is just a paraphrasing from here-

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/gods.html

[Roland]

Zoroastrianism

 

I don't really know much about Zoroastrianism (because there doesn't seem to be much surviving knowledge of it); but isn't it a precurser to the dualistic monotheism of the Judaeo-Christian God?

 

Zoroastrianism is a living religion. A few Z's remain in Iran. Most migrated to India after the Arabs invaded Persia - today they're known as Parsees. Many members of both Z groups live in the U.S. today. They are not well known because they are a small ethnically exclusive religion that does not proselytize.

 

The founder, Zarathrushtra, was roughly contemporary with Moses, so Zoroastrianism not really a precursor of Judaism. But, during the Babylonian exile, the Jews were exposed to Zoroastrianism. After the Persian king Cyrus, a patron of Zoroastrianism, overthrew the Babylonians, he freed the Jewish leaders, some of whom returned home to Judah. Cyrus encouraged them in rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem. During the exilic and post-exilic periods, Judaism adopted some beliefs similar to Zoroastrian beliefs. It is difficult to prove the Z influence, but it is certainly a plausible hypothesis.

 

Specifically, it has been suggested that the Jews picked up their beliefs in angels and spirits, the afterlife, and the messiah from Zoroastrianism. Rabbinic Jews (the Pharisees and their successors) believe in all of these things, but the more conservative, old-fashioned Sadducees never accepted these Z-like beliefs.

 

This website has accessible information on Zoroastrianism, along with some links: http://www.pyracantha.com/zoroastrianism.html

 

If you're looking for a possible precursor of Judaism, there was Egypt's brief montheistic period under Akhenaten.

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

There's also Mithraic influences - notably death and resurrection...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism

[Roland]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Mithraism did not really "influence" Christianity. There might have been some parallel development, since they both arose in, broadly speaking, the same era and region. And Christianity, after it became the established religion of the Roman Empire, might have borrowed some superficial bits of Mithraism (as it did with other pagan religions), including its worship sites. But Mithraism had no influence on the main elements of Christianity, including death and resurrection.

[Mister E]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Mithraism did not really "influence" Christianity. There might have been some parallel development' date=' since they both arose in, broadly speaking, the same era and region. And Christianity, after it became the established religion of the Roman Empire, might have borrowed some superficial bits of Mithraism (as it did with other pagan religions), including its worship sites. But Mithraism had no influence on the main elements of Christianity, including death and resurrection.[/quote']*cough* *cough*

 

Well, if you've read much of the Nemedian Chronicles, which covers many of the highlights of the Hyborian Age (which pre-dates Moses, Jacob, Noah, and Adam I believe), you'd know that worship of Mitra was featured prominantly in that era of Prehistory.

 

 

~ Mister E (thief, reaver, and slayer)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Yehah. But you have to realise that - like history - it was written over a long period of time. You can't just summarise "the Bible says this" and give a generic statement because the Bible says different' date=' contradictory, things in other chapters.[/quote']

Oh, I know. The funniest thing is how people today somehow want to interpret things literally (at least when it suits their agenda). "The Bible," is a collection of stories. It is a compilation of myths and other works of fiction, with some oral lineage and other history thrown in (possibly the aspect that invites people to adopt a literal interpretation). How would the authors/recorders of such stories turn in their graves (or laugh hysterically) if they learned how their works are being used today?

 

A lot of the material is even carried over from other religions and belief systems, with some creative editing to make it fit (more or less). It is one of the ways Christianity became so successful: make others comfortable with adopting your beliefs and practices by incorporating some of theirs. Just about all of the traditions in our modern wedding ceremonies (throwing petals and rice, the ring, the tying of hands, walking down the aisle, etc.), for example, came directly from the commitment ceremonies of various Western, "pagan," practices.

 

P.S. - It is the literal interpretation of wording that I was in fact poking at.

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Let us not forget Easter and Christmas either - or the fertility Goddess Eostre who's symbols are the egg and the rabbit, and the winter solstice as they are otherwise known. Historians have actually determined Jesus' brithday - and it ain't in December.

 

But for that - the blame is actually on the Catholic church - which integrated local religions when they first started spreading out as part of the Holy Roman Empire. Even including local gods and godesses as saints (such as Bridget)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Let us not forget Easter and Christmas either - or the fertility Goddess Eostre who's symbols are the egg and the rabbit, and the winter solstice as they are otherwise known. Historians have actually determined Jesus' brithday - and it ain't in December.

 

But for that - the blame is actually on the Catholic church - which integrated local religions when they first started spreading out as part of the Holy Roman Empire. Even including local gods and godesses as saints (such as Bridget)

Oh absolutely. I was just naming one example; one that is indoctrinated well enough that it might surprise many with its subtlety.

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Marketting - it all comes down to marketting

[Roland]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

1. The parts of the Bible adapted from "pagan" sources are more or less isolated to a few chapters of Genesis, plus bits of Judges and a few verses in some of the older Psalms. (There are theories about Esther and Job, as well, but these are tenuous.) It's somewhat anachronistic, however, to identify them as "pagan." They were part of the common mythological reservoir of the Middle East - they were not owned by any one culture. The pagan-related parts of Genesis do happen to be among the more interesting and memorable chapters of the Bible!

 

2. Much of the Bible is meant to be taken literally and historically. One must, of course, take into account the biases of the authors, but that's true of modern history, as well. The Bible, amazingly, sometimes reports events from conflicting PoVs (e.g., I Samuel) without trying to paper over the differences.

 

3. The fact that the Church allowed its converts to continue their old cultural practices, sometimes with a bit of modification to de-emphasize the overtly pagan bits, should not be surprising. From the time the Church decided that one did not have to become a Jew to be a Christian, it has been a multi-cultural institution.

 

4. The date of Jesus' birth has not been determined. There are many theories, but none has achieved anything even approaching consensus. The date of Easter, OTOH, is determined according to the old Jewish calendar. (The rabbis later reformed their calendar, which is why Passover does not always coincide with Easter today.) Pagan eggs and bunnies do not really figure into any official Easter observance. Eastern Christians generally use the term Pascha, rather than Easter, in order to emphasize the connection to Passover, rather than spring.

 

5. Brigid was a historical person - an Irish abbess. Her story has been confounded with that of the goddess she was named after (her father was a pagan), so it's hard to tell exactly where one ends and the other begins. (This is not to say there are no fictional saints, but Brigid isn't one of them.)

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Ah!

Thanks for that!

[Lucius]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

My anthropology professor used to say that in any culture, no matter what the "official" cultural beliefs are supposed to be, there will be some atheists, some monotheists, and some polytheists. Often, they will all participate in the same rituals as anyone else in the tribe, and follow the same or similar moral and social codes of behavior - but if you ask WHY, or what something MEANS, and probe beyond the superficial level, you get different opinions. In other words, they're all doing the same things, but not necessarily explaining it the same way.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary warns me I will regret sticking my neck out here....

[Lucius]

Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Exactly. Now there's something that has always bugged me.

 

What I tell players is that polytheism is like a buffet -- eating just one thing off of the buffet makes absolutely no sense, and is in fact more than a little bizarre.

 

 

I just had to import this.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Do I need a license to import a palindromedary?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Hmm. I have never thought of it this way before' date=' but that verse actually implies that there [i']are[/i] other gods out there; the, "faithful," are just not allowed to worship them.

 

Of course there were. The god of Abraham was just one of them, but was different from most in that he demanded that his worshippers pay homage to him in preference to all others (being, as the book says, "a jealous god").

 

I find it kind of weird that this one little tribal god -- petty and vindictive, as nearly all tribal gods were back then -- managed to morph into three of the five major religions on Earth today. I suppose it has something to do with human beings' intrinsic desire to dominate and be dominated. I think it's just the way too many of us are wired.

[Roland]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Of course there were. The god of Abraham was just one of them' date=' but was different from most in that he demanded that his worshippers pay homage to him in preference to all others (being, as the book says, "a jealous god").[/quote']

 

Israel was unique in having only one deity, but it was not unique in forbidding the worship of foreign deities. Worshiping the gods of one's national pantheon was a sign of patriotism, as well as piety.

 

I find it kind of weird that this one little tribal god -- petty and vindictive' date=' as nearly all tribal gods were back then -- managed to morph into three of the five major religions on Earth today. I suppose it has something to do with human beings' intrinsic desire to dominate and be dominated. I think it's just the way too many of us are wired.[/quote']

 

Petty and vindictive??

 

Perhaps the success of monotheism was a matter of evolution: it conferred some survival advantage upon cultures that practiced it. For example, it is easier to believe in consistent laws of nature - a prerequisite for science - if one does not believe in a multiplicity of conflicting gods.

[Curufea]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

A big factor in the dominance of Christianity is its adoption as the official religion of the Roman Empire, and later - the Holy Roman Empire. Both of which spread the religion throughout the region.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

Israel was unique in having only one deity' date=' but it was [i']not[/i] unique in forbidding the worship of foreign deities.

 

I do not disagree, but I''m referring to a period long before there was an "Israel" or anything even remotely like it, circa 2100-1900 BCE.

[Roland]

Re: Growing Up Polytheistic

 

I do not disagree' date=' but I''m referring to a period long before there was an "Israel" or anything even remotely like it, circa 2100-1900 BCE.[/quote']

In the era of the patriarchs, as recounted in Genesis 12-50, God is not described as "jealous." His primary demand is circumcision. God's jealousy first appears four centuries later, in the time of Moses, as described in Exodus.