Why is Strength so underpriced?

[Tornado]

Let's say you buy ten points of Strength. This costs ten points and grants you +2d6 HTH. In addition to this you get...

 

Two points of Physical Defense (worth two points), two points of Recovery (worth four points) and five points of Stun (worth five points). Hmm, something doesn't quite work here. Two plus four plus five equals... Eleven. Interesting, isn't it?

 

So the total cost of enhancing your Strength with the effective equavilent of No Figured Characteristics is a negative number. Thus you can actually get points for inceasing your Strength in this fashion.

 

Why is this?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

Let's say you buy ten points of Strength. This costs ten points and grants you +2d6 HTH. In addition to this you get...

 

Two points of Physical Defense (worth two points), two points of Recovery (worth four points) and five points of Stun (worth five points). Hmm, something doesn't quite work here. Two plus four plus five equals... Eleven. Interesting, isn't it?

 

So the total cost of enhancing your Strength with the effective equavilent of No Figured Characteristics is a negative number. Thus you can actually get points for inceasing your Strength in this fashion.

 

Why is this?

No. NO. NO!!!! Not again!

 

Heh. This has been discussed over and over and over again in these forums. You might want do a quick search or two before really opening up this subject for discussion again. Trust me: you will get buried in a conversational stampede and not know which way is up!

 

And, er...welcome to the boards!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

Tornado, prestidigitator is right...this is one of the old subjects of debate, argument, etc. and almost always results (very quickly) in a flame war between the armed camps of the people on opposite sides of the debate.

 

You can see all the points of both sides by looking for some past threads.

[Tornado]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

You might want do a quick search or two before really opening up this subject for discussion again.

You can see all the points of both sides by looking for some past threads.

I did. But it brought up 853 results, and a scan of the first few pages showed me absolutely nothing.

[archermoo]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

This type of debate is why I often run games where the figured stats aren't figured. They are based at their "default" level (i.e. as if all primes were 10), but don't go up as the primaries go up.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

STR is underpriced specifically so we can talk about this topic ad nauseum, at least once every six to eight weeks or so.

 

It brought up just 853 Results? would've thought that number to be higher.

 

Welcome to the boards, may I suggest a less volatile subject?

 

Like AID for instance.

[archermoo]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

STR is underpriced specifically so we can talk about this topic ad nauseum, at least once every six to eight weeks or so.

 

It brought up just 853 Results? would've thought that number to be higher.

 

Welcome to the boards, may I suggest a less volatile subject?

 

Like AID for instance.

 

*whaps ghost-angel upside the head with 5ER*

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

oof!

 

right, sorry 'bout that.

 

HI! Welcome the HERO Boards! We're very friendly folk.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

We need a FAQ in sticky at the head of the Hero forum and probably one at the head of the Champions forum (which contains a pointer to the HERO one for strictly HERO System issues).

 

Issues for the HERO FAQ would include, but not be limited to:

 

1. Is Strength underpriced?

2. Is Damage Shield overpriced?

3. What good is COM?

 

I'm sure there are others that we could come up with. The Champions thread would have FAQ questions like:

 

1. Who'd win: Batman or Captain America?

2. Who'd win: Superman or Thor?

3. Will CLOWN ever come back?

[MitchellS]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

We need a FAQ in sticky at the head of the Hero forum and probably one at the head of the Champions forum (which contains a pointer to the HERO one for strictly HERO System issues).

 

Issues for the HERO FAQ would include, but not be limited to:

 

1. Is Strength underpriced?

2. Is Damage Shield overpriced?

3. What good is COM?

 

I'm sure there are others that we could come up with. The Champions thread would have FAQ questions like:

 

1. Who'd win: Batman or Captain America?

2. Who'd win: Superman or Thor?

3. Will CLOWN ever come back?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mutant for Hire again.

[GamePhil]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

Welcome to the boards. Yes, this is discussed virtually every time a new person comes on board, but I'll throw in the two cents that I generally do, just for you. That's the kind of friendly folks we are.

 

Let's say you buy ten points of Strength. This costs ten points and grants you +2d6 HTH. In addition to this you get...

 

Two points of Physical Defense (worth two points), two points of Recovery (worth four points) and five points of Stun (worth five points). Hmm, something doesn't quite work here. Two plus four plus five equals... Eleven. Interesting, isn't it?

 

So the total cost of enhancing your Strength with the effective equavilent of No Figured Characteristics is a negative number. Thus you can actually get points for inceasing your Strength in this fashion.

 

You can't, you are explicitely disallowed from selling back more than one figured characteristic. In 1st Edition, you could (many years ago), but it was almost immediately supplanted by 2nd, in which you could not.

 

CON has the same "problem", by the way.

 

The main reason that I have no problem with STR is that other characters have similar advantages. High STR characters have the benefits of figured characteristics, most other types have the benefits of Power Frameworks in many games settings. In game settings where this is not true, you generally have an upper limit on STR, so it works out for me.

 

Now for the more esoteric statement. The figured stats aren't really worth 11. Yes, they add up to 11, but I very, very rarely see anyone buy them up with the exception of PD and REC (and excepting characters from the books, I'm talking about player's characters). This indicates to me that the costs are a little off the utility. Not suggesting changing the costs, just saying that the figured characteristics you get may not be as much of a problem as it appears if you only look at the mathematics of them.

[GamePhil]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

I too must agree with the Mutie.

[atlascott]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

"Why is this?"

 

Because DOJ generally, and Steve Long in particular, are evil, evil, evil. They PURPOSELY do things like this to unbalance the system, enrage us, and destroy any fun we could possibly otherwise have with this 'system' (if you can call so fatally flawed assembly or rules a 'system'--what, with the cheap STR and the lots of six-siders and whatnot).

[GamePhil]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

Because DOJ generally' date=' and Steve Long in particular, are evil, evil, evil. [/quote']

 

That is true. After all, Steve gave us Hudson City. Can't be much more evil than that. And Darren and Ben gave us the Giant Mechanon Head of Doom! DOOM I Say!

 

ahem. Sorry.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

This type of debate is why I often run games where the figured stats aren't figured. They are based at their "default" level (i.e. as if all primes were 10)' date=' but don't go up as the primaries go up.[/quote']

 

I build alien and fantasy race templates like that, actually.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

1. Is Strength underpriced?

2. Is Damage Shield overpriced?

3. What good is COM?

1) the price has never changed. While the only answer that matters is mine (or yours, or yours, or yours, or....), no one who has ever written the rules has found enough problems with it to buck tradition.

 

2) Only if done according to the book

 

3) It's the only chance some of us have to not be Fugly-- you just can't put a price on that!

 

 

 

1. Who'd win: Batman or Captain America?

2. Who'd win: Superman or Thor?

3. Will CLOWN ever come back?

 

1) Depends. Flagsuits have the edge in their own country, but Batman tends to go cosmic every whenever the Hell he feels like it, so I guess it's all a matter of what country the author came from, and just how imprtant he finds character continuity to be. Though Cap will have lots of Americans on his side, Batso will probably have some 'anit-flagsuit gas' tucked away in a hollowed out recess on the left of his anus or something.....

 

2) The sellers of blue ink would reign supreme.

 

3) Yes, but with some ret-conning. As I understand it, they will be represented as 64 DNPC sidekicks on 6E Foxbat's sheet, as he has found no single suitable replacement for Leroy, the Awesome Exoskeleton Man.

 

 

 

Oh, and rep for the idea. I Admin a board for newbie motorcycle riders to get tech and riding tips on. I've had to do that very thing for "To Hell with Helmets, armor, and sunscreen! Where Kin Ah Gits Me Some Super-Loud Tailpipes?!" threads....

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

I don't change the price of STR at all. I believe that if a player wants more than 20 STR they need to have a character concept that fits enough to allow it.

[SirViss]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

For Tornado:

 

I did a seach myself for those threads. There are 2 that I found which go on and on about the subject, so these are probably the main ones that people are refering too.

 

You can find them here and here.

 

Enjoy!

 

(And whatever you do, don't post to those threads! You'd just get the whole thing started again! )

 

[Markdoc]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

To actually answer the question, STR is underpriced, because Hero system started as a superhero game, and superheroes commonly have lots of really, really strong guys running around. So they made STR cheap.

 

Things broke down a little when the game became more generic, because then, in many cases STR became TOO cheap. People have been pointing this out forever, but the stock answer has always been - "if we change the cost of STR, it affects every single character ever published/designed. It's too big a change."

 

So cheap STR is a legacy of Hero system's roots.

 

If you don't like it - and I don't, myself - a very common house rule (especially in heroic level games where most or all characters are human) is simply to adjust the cost of STR to 2 points per and treat it the same as all other powers (for example STR costs 1 point of END per 10 points not per 5) and that hand attack now simply costs 5 points per d6.

 

Simple, easy, works well.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

Technically, this is begging the question. First, you have to establish that it IS underpriced. I mean, beyond the blisteringly obvious ‘you get back more than you put in’ and ‘no other attack power has even a fraction of it’s flexibility’ points.

 

Cheap shots aside, the answer is “Legacy crap.†The same reason D&D Rangers can cast spells.

 

Understandable, though. Long term fans of point-based systems tend to really HATE it when the core ‘blocks’ of the system are changed. Look what happened to GURPS when they changed the price of IQ. And IQ was far, far more broken then Hero’s Strength.

 

Given Hero’s game-buying following is about 85% ‘old timers,’ and that the most common genre, Champions, mitigates the problem by allowing cheap and easy power frameworks, it probably wasn’t too tough a choice to make.

 

And to be fair, as long as power frameworks ARE cheap and easy, and bricks don’t take them, it does more or less balance out for supers games. Not as well as it could, but almost close enough for government work.

 

For the record, the board as a whole tends to come down about 60/40 against changing Strength. I’m for, (as if you couldn’t guess . . .) but then, I’m big for changing things I don’t think work well.

 

---

“Wait. So if I buy IQ and Dex up to 15, then I can buy every skill in the game, at 14-, for half a point each?â€

“Ah, no. A small number of them will cost a whole point each.â€

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

To actually answer the question, STR is underpriced, because Hero system started as a superhero game, and superheroes commonly have lots of really, really strong guys running around. So they made STR cheap.

 

Things broke down a little when the game became more generic, because then, in many cases STR became TOO cheap. People have been pointing this out forever, but the stock answer has always been - "if we change the cost of STR, it affects every single character ever published/designed. It's too big a change."

 

So cheap STR is a legacy of Hero system's roots.

 

If you don't like it - and I don't, myself - a very common house rule (especially in heroic level games where most or all characters are human) is simply to adjust the cost of STR to 2 points per and treat it the same as all other powers (for example STR costs 1 point of END per 10 points not per 5) and that hand attack now simply costs 5 points per d6.

 

Simple, easy, works well.

 

cheers, Mark

 

The only other thing to consider in a Heroic game if you're going to up the cost of STR is to consider lowering the Str Minimums on weapons to a more realistic level... from what I've seen, dropping about 5 off the STr Mins seems to work about right.

Then you have less musclebound types wandering around, but it balances out because you don't need to have an 18 str to use a greatsword (which is, IME, silly.... I have, at my best, around a 13 str and for years my favorite weapons were a claymore (greatsword) and a bardiche (great axe))

[Drachasor]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

You can say the same thing about most stats.

 

+10 Dexterity (30 points) gets you:

 

+1 Speed: 10 points

 

+3 DCV: 15 Points (3 combat skill levels)

 

+3 OCV: 15+ Points (no way to get this exactly, but it is between 15 and 24 pts--three 5-point levels and three 8-point levels)

 

+2 All Agility Skills: 10 points

 

That's 50+ points worth of stuff for only 30 points.

 

You save a lot more points getting 10 points of Dex than you do with 10 points of strength.

 

That's why how high you can buy stats is usually limited. Yes, you save points, but that's part of the reason you buy the stat in the first place. You still have to devote a good deal of points to either stat to get a good deal of savings. Sometimes it isn't worth the extra points you need to spend there that you could spend elsewhere on other abilities for your character. In this case you can save a few points buy just buying up PD 1 or 2 points and leaving strength alone.

 

-Drachasor

[Markdoc]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

Technically' date=' this is begging the question. First, you have to establish that it IS underpriced. I mean, beyond the blisteringly obvious ‘you get back more than you put in’ and ‘no other attack power has even a fraction of it’s flexibility’ points. [/quote']

 

Sure. It's about alittle bit more han the math. People have argued for ever that CON is underpriced as well but it doesn't bother me.

 

The reason is simple - when was the last time that every character in your heroic game had a 20 con?

 

Yet in heroic level games (especially fantasy games), it's actually very common for everyone to have STR 18 or 20, unless the GM stomps on it hard (by basically saying "No- you can't have it"). This is usually a pretty good sign that a power is under-priced. Even AT 20 points per I have had plenty of STR 18-20 characters in my games, so it's clear that even doubling the cost does not make it unattractive.

 

But - shrug - it's not that big a deal. The fix is easy, simple and does not otherwise mess with the rules.

 

cheers, Mark

[Trebuchet]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

I've never considered STR to be underpriced, for two reasons:

 

1) Every character has the same opportunity to buy it, so there's nothing inherently unfair about some characters having more STR than others any more than it's unfair for others have more DEX or SPD.

 

2) While Markdoc is quite right about Hero's origins as a superhero game, even in pulp fiction higher than average STR is an almost universal trait of lead characters. (Batman, Doc Savage, Tarzan, James Bond, Indiana Jones, etc.) It's relatively inexpensive because almost every action hero in film or fiction is strong.

 

As a final thought, I'll observe that if STR were truly as ridiculously underpriced (or excessively cost-effective if you prefer) as some people seem to think, everyone would be playing bricks and demi-bricks in whatever type of game they're participating in. And, as a random sampling of characters in any campaign will show you, that's simply not the case. STR is underpriced only for those people who treat Hero System like a tactical wargame rather than a role-playing game.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Why is Strength so underpriced?

 

You can say the same thing about most stats.

 

Well, Strength, Dex, and to a (much) lesser extent Con. So two and a half stats, anyway.

 

I’d actually mind everyone in a heroic game with a 20 Con less than I would 20 Str. Saying ‘everyone in fantasy novels is super strong’ is just not true. Pretty much every heroic character in genre fiction IS in very good shape, though, unless they have a plot reason not to.

 

Except maybe in police procedurals, they’re always complaining that petty criminals are younger and fitter than they are.

 

In heroic games, (which usually don’t use frameworks) this IS a fairly common problem, given the number of threads that pop up about it. ‘This could be better’ is not necessarily equivalent to ‘This is so broken the whole system doesn’t work.’

 

---

But apparently I’m a terrible, powergaming player, so what do I know?