Rough Magic

[Guest bblackmoor]

Against my better judgement, I am posting the magic system for my Rough Magic game setting, and soliciting your comments. So here it is: rip away. Just try to include a constructive comment somewhere, okay?

 

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Magic

 

Seriously, let me know what you think. Any comment is better than no comment. Besides, this is a work in progress, and this is the time to tweak it.

 

Incidentally, if you want to read the thinking behind this magic system, or why I chose Hero System for it, you may want to check out this post from another thread:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=812225&highlight=familiar#post812225

[Gunrunner]

Re: Rough Magic

 

Looks good so far - simple, yet structured. It seems like it would be well-balanced as well. I can't say much more until I see a more fleshed-out version. I don't know why you would consider not posting it, most of the people that post on these forums are encouraging and helpful.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

I don't know why you would consider not posting it' date=' most of the people that post on these forums are encouraging and helpful.[/quote']

 

Perhaps I give disproportionate weight to a few bad apples.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Incidentally, I am writing Hero Designer export templates to make posting the spells to our wiki easier. If anyone has any interest in that sort of thing, I can post those here.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

I have written up a couple of spells, so you can see generally how that will work. (Two down, 998 to go....)

 

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Spells

[Markdoc]

Re: Rough Magic

 

I hope I'm not one of the overly negative types! I like the nice, clean layout very much.

 

Although I can see that the "requires 6 lower-level spells" will stop you reaching Ultimate Power level in a hurry, it seems that you get a lot for not many points. The "Open doors" spell as written essentially allows a mage with it to outshine any rogue-type when it comes to opening things. Not only does it give a roll that the rogue would have to spend 25 points to equal, but it alows locks to be picked at range (and theerfore much more safely)

 

The same is likely to be true (albeit by not as much) at lower levels.

 

Is the intention that all characters will be mages, or do you have other counter-balances planned for the character guidelines section? It seems like Mages would start off slightly weaker than other characters (because of the need to buy the talent and a decent EGO), but gradually pull further and further ahead, being able to buy increasingly more powerful spells for the same price. By the time the characters have earned 50 experience points, 3 XP buys the fighter +1 CSL with swords (say) and the Mage a 5d6, 5DEF area affect entangle (say).

 

A couple of suggestions which might help.

 

Keep the echelon formula the same, but allow active points to modify the skill roll. In that case, for the more powerful spells, paying 5 points to get a 14- roll might not be good enough (I figure Mages will hit EGO 18-20 pretty quickly). That way, heavily-limited spells with high active costs will be avaialble at lower echelons, but you will need to sink more points into the skill roll to use them, which will balance to some extent.

 

The other possibility would be to change the formula so that high ative point powers are found further up the tree. That would not change the ascendancy of mages, but it would slow it.

 

Also, you could avoid some of these issues by controlling the spells which are available, so that there is not too much combat magic.

 

cheers, Mark

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

The "Open doors" spell as written essentially allows a mage with it to outshine any rogue-type when it comes to opening things.... By the time the characters have earned 50 experience points' date=' 3 XP buys the fighter +1 CSL with swords (say) and the Mage a 5d6, 5DEF area affect entangle (say).[/quote']

 

Point well taken. This is, as they say, The Problem With Magic. I was rather hoping that Endurance cost would be the limiting factor: I had intended to have all spells cost full Endurance, except possibly for one of the forbidden magic styles (Tantric Magic, possibly).

 

But perhaps this isn't enough. I have a cordial dislike for the concept Charges as the limiting factor, but I was considering either having magic cost Long Term Endurance, or have it cost Endurance from a slow-to-recharge Endurance Reserve.

 

Hmmm... that reminds me, I forgot to add "Costs Endurance" as a Limitation for the Lockpicking skill is Access Of The Adept (the door-unlocking spell). I'll rectify that. At 8 END per shot, I don't think the magician will be overshadowing the rogues very often. What do you think?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

Keep the echelon formula the same' date=' but allow active points to modify the skill roll.[/quote']

 

I did consider this, actually. Originally there was a "-1 per 20 active skill" roll penalty. I got rid of it mainly to keep the magic system simpler. I am trying to make things as playable as possible.

 

I also considered making the base skill roll cost 3 pts. for first echelon spells, 5 pts. for second echelon skill, 7 pts. for third echelon, and so forth. This would have much the same effect as the skill roll penalty, above. I decided against this because I wasn't sure how to implement it in Hero Designer, and I didn't want to have to create a special template to do it.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

Speaking of spell echelons, I am going to change the equation so that echelon = (active / 20). This is mainly for my own convenience, so that I do not have to re-sort spell lists after exporting them using my Spells By Echelon export template.

[Markdoc]

Re: Rough Magic

 

Point well taken. This is, as they say, The Problem With Magic. I was rather hoping that Endurance cost would be the limiting factor: I had intended to have all spells cost full Endurance, except possibly for one of the forbidden magic styles (Tantric Magic, possibly).

 

But perhaps this isn't enough. I have a cordial dislike for the concept Charges as the limiting factor, but I was considering either having magic cost Long Term Endurance, or have it cost Endurance from a slow-to-recharge Endurance Reserve.

 

Hmmm... that reminds me, I forgot to add "Costs Endurance" as a Limitation for the Lockpicking skill is Access Of The Adept (the door-unlocking spell). I'll rectify that. At 8 END per shot, I don't think the magician will be overshadowing the rogues very often. What do you think?

 

Like you, I don't much care for charges (well, except for magical items, then it seems more reasonable).

 

END use helps somewhat, especially if you disallow reduced END, but it has two problems.

 

1. It's cheap

2. It does nohing to prevent out of combat spell use - because all you need to do is take a breather for a minute and you're good to go. So, to take the door opening spell above, the 8 END requirement is unlikely to be meaningful because that END can be recovered in 3-6 seconds. END use does restrict combat spell use somewhat because it's harder to maintain a forcefield and still sorcerously rip the living hearts out of your foes for more than a couple of turns

 

One fix is to make magic run off an END reserve, which fills up a bit more slowly than from regular recovery (as you note above, and that'd be my choice). That way the mage can cast a lot of spells off the bat, but if they use up all their juice, then they are out of power. That also has the advantage that the END reserve is one more thing the mage has to buy, reducing their initial power somewhat and putting off the awful day when the mage reaches Horde-obliterating status.

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Rough Magic

 

Whats with all the Charges hate? They are very good for modeling some types of Magic, and there are a lot of advantages to building Spells on Charges.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Rough Magic

 

Charges just seem so arbitrary. That's fine for magic items, which don't tire and recover from being tired, and it's fine for fairies, because so much about them is somewhat illogical (and because the number 3 is just so in-character).

 

For most magic systems, though, they're not the most intuitive way to go. Plus there's backlash from that other game.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

Some basic character guidelines:

 

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Character_guidelines

 

There are empty spots, here: mainly "starting money" and "starting equipment". I'm not sure about the money, but I'm thinking of basing starting equipment on the characters' Familiarities. In other words, they have (for free) one of anything they know how to use.

 

I should probably also mention which Talents, Perks, and Disadvantages are discouraged. Maybe tomorrow.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Rough Magic

 

Charges just seem so arbitrary. That's fine for magic items' date=' which don't tire and recover from being tired, and it's fine for fairies, because so much about them is somewhat illogical (and because the number 3 is just so in-character). [/quote']

 

Magic in general is "illogical", so that's hardly a telling point even if one agrees with it. It is as feasible as any other conceptualization of an impossibility. "Fire and forget" is a viable style of Magic, and Charges model that very well.

 

Also there is a hidden assumption in your statement that Magic use should be tiring. But that is a decision made by the person designing the Magic System. It is within the realms of possibility that Magic Use might not be tiring; what if Magic does all the work or is self-sustaining?

 

Both approaches are feasible.

 

For most magic systems, though, they're not the most intuitive way to go.

 

Intuitive is largely subjective. It largely depends on a persons past experience and perspective. For people coming from some backgrounds it is extremely intuitive.

 

Plus there's backlash from that other game.

 

I think this is more to the point; those with a hate on for D&D might have a contact aversion to it. However, it is useful to remember that Gary Gygax "borrowed" the idea from Jack Vance's Dying Earth books. The idea has a larger scope than the singular implementation of the E.G.G.

 

 

Here are the advantages of Charges for use with Spells:

 

*Powers built on Charges do not cost Endurance. This makes sense for Magic Systems where using magic is not tiring to the user.

 

* Continuing Charges used for Spells that are not Instant in nature are effectively a little better than Persistent; they keep working even if the character that activated them is Stunned, Knocked Out, or Killed.

 

* Charges taken on intrinsically Persistent Powers (such as many Defenses) cap out as a -0 Limitation; they never become an Advantage.

 

* Attacks bought on Continuing Charges continue doing damage until the Charge expires.

 

* Powers in Variable Power Pools and Multipowers on Continuing Charges are not deactivated by switching slots around; once activated they continue to work until the Charge expires even if the activating character reallocates their VPP Pool or switches their Multipower to other slots.

 

* Spells on Continuing Charges don't have to be "maintained", allowing a caster to toss out many constant effects without worrying about Phase to Phase bookkeeping. The Continuing Charge effects are effectively disconnected from the caster.

 

 

These are very useful traits, and allow a very elegant modeling of a certain style of Magic. Disregarding them out of hand seems very self-limiting to me.

 

 

Now that isnt to say that they are the end all be all for Magic Systems; it is just to say that they are a powerful option. I personally prefer END for most types of Magic myself; most of my Magic Systems are END based to some extent. But the Vancian meta system I use supports a formidible array of variants as well; it is a very robust style of Magic.

[Markdoc]

Re: Rough Magic

 

Actually my dislike for charges is based on three things:

 

1. It "feels" wrong. Yeah, I know, that's totally subjective Strangely enough, I do have a Vancian-inspired magic system and a rune-based magic system that do use charges: but they both are restricted to a single recoverable charge on any power, so it's more like "prepare and use" than having multiple charges stashed away.

 

2. That "other game". It's hard to escape the taint. Charges feel totally arbitrary mostly because in D&D they WERE totally arbitrary - but when we used charges on magic spells it seemed to encourage players to act like D&D spellcasters. We had a caster whose spells recovered once a day, at sunrise, so she would wake up just before sunrise to use up anything left over, and then - ahhhhhh. All spells back again. I dunno, it just felt "gamey"

 

And that leads to 3, in game play charges seemedto encourage a slightly different more video-gamey style.

 

All totally subjective, of course. I have no problem with charges as a mechanic: I just don't like 'em on most magic in my game.

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Rough Magic

 

Actually my dislike for charges is based on three things:

 

1. It "feels" wrong. Yeah, I know, that's totally subjective Strangely enough, I do have a Vancian-inspired magic system and a rune-based magic system that do use charges: but they both are restricted to a single recoverable charge on any power, so it's more like "prepare and use" than having multiple charges stashed away.

 

{shrug} Can't argue with preference, but can't argue from the basis of preference either.

 

 

2. That "other game". It's hard to escape the taint. Charges feel totally arbitrary mostly because in D&D they WERE totally arbitrary - but when we used charges on magic spells it seemed to encourage players to act like D&D spellcasters. We had a caster whose spells recovered once a day, at sunrise, so she would wake up just before sunrise to use up anything left over, and then - ahhhhhh. All spells back again. I dunno, it just felt "gamey"

So just say that the Charges reset when she wakes up after some suitably long period of time.

 

I find that usually when players get gamey, its because the GM is holding them to arbitrary restrictions and the players are just naturally trying to overcome them. In this case if the arbitrary restriction is that the charges refill at a specific time, it's to be expected that players will work around it.

 

If the charges are being used to track how many Spells the character gets per game day -- whenever that game day happens to start for them, then there is no payoff for the player to try to work around that. As soon as they start taking actions, that when their game day begins and their charges reset.

 

 

And that leads to 3, in game play charges seemedto encourage a slightly different more video-gamey style.

I dont see where this comes from. In most video games characters have some kind of mana bar or power meter that is expended and recharges over time much like END in an END reserve, and not like Charges which recover per day.

 

Unless of course you mean video games based on D&D, in which case the magic style isnt "video-gamey" -- its "D&D-ey".

 

 

All totally subjective, of course. I have no problem with charges as a mechanic: I just don't like 'em on most magic in my game.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Thats fine; preference is what it is. I just dont like to see viable mechanics get maligned just because people have a contact dislike of anything associated with D&D.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

Thats fine; preference is what it is. I just dont like to see viable mechanics get maligned just because people have a contact dislike of anything associated with D&D.

 

Fair enough. As it happens, I may be using charges for some Alchemy spells. Everything else will probably use an Endurance Reserve.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

Here's a question: it occurred to me that different types of magic might have different Limitations on the Recovery of the Endurance Reserve. Here are a couple of examples:

 

Alchemy:

only recovers with access to alchemical supplies (-1 1/2)

 

Jazz Sorcery:

only recovers during jam sessions (-1)

 

Tantic Magic:

only recovers during sexual activity (-2)

 

Theurgy:

only recovers during prayer and ritual (-1/2)

 

etc.

 

I'm just pulling those values out of the air. The exact value isn't what I'm concerned about: the fact that there is a Limitation at all is what I'm concerned about (although feel free to comment on that, too). I'm wondering if this may be too limiting. Any opinions?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Rough Magic

 

I'm just pulling those values out of the air. The exact value isn't what I'm concerned about: the fact that there is a Limitation at all is what I'm concerned about (although feel free to comment on that, too). I'm wondering if this may be too limiting. Any opinions?

That is a standard use of END Reserve and works to an extent. The Thanomancy variant of my Adeptology Magic System uses this sort of Control Factor.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Adeptology.shtml

 

EDIT:

Pulled the Thanomancy variant into it's own document here:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/adeptologyThanomancy.shtml

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

Calling it "The Gift" has worked out pretty well. It has enabled me to distinguish them with "The Gift Of Alchemy", "The Gift Of Tantric Magic", "The Gift Of Jazz Sorcery", and so on. The naming feels natural.

 

The decision to split the prerequisites between "The Gift" (an END reserve) and the ability to cast a certain type of spell (a Knowledge Skill) has worked out really well, too. At first I was worried that it might be an unneccesary complication (something I abhor), but it has permitted me to add a neat wrinkle to the setting:

 

It should be noted that anyone may potentially learn the theory behind a particular avenue of magic, and buy the appropriate Knowledge Skill. It is possible (if difficult) for a person without The Gift to learn the principles of Alchemy, for example. Such persons are known as "theoretical magicians". It is even possible for such persons to invent new spells which they themselves are incapable of casting. The most skilled and knowledgeable of theoretical magicians are held in high esteem, despite their lack of The Gift, and several such individuals hold positions of authority at the Académie Impériale De Thaumaturgie.

 

(from http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Magic )

 

I am generally pretty pleased with how this is going.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

I have added a number of new things, including Precepts, Invocations, Correspondences, and a small list of unusual Knowledge SKills which are appropriate to the setting:

 

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Precepts

 

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Invocations

 

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Correspondences

 

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:House_rules#Knowledge_Skills

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

Incidentally, I realize that the Rough Magic stuff isn't organized terribly well. When I have all (or almost all) of the content online, then I will go back and re-organize it.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

By the way, I want it to be very clearly understood that when I post my various ideas and musings here, I want feedback. I may or may not use it, and I may or may not agree with it, but I definitely appreciate it. The highest compliment you can pay to me is to look seriously at what I have created, consider it, praise what you find praiseworthy (if anything), and then make suggestions for how I may improve it.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

I've been pretty busy with work this week, so I've not had a lot of time for updates. However, AlHazred was generous enough to share with me his Spells Of Faerun conversions (which you can see in the thread by that name), and I am slowly working through those to adapt some of them to Rough Magic. So far I've only added two: Color Blindness and Insensate:

 

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Spells_by_name

 

I had to make some changes to make the spells appropriate to Rough Magic's setting, which is to be expected when GMs collaborate, but it still saved me some effort to have his work to start from. Many thanks to AlHazred. All GMs should be so willing to collaborate and openly share their work.

 

Edit:

 

The Hero Designer files are available at http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Help:Hero_Designer

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

After taking a break from my Rough Magic notes for a while, I came back to it and read through it again. I have decided that I made the magic system too complicated. It's a human impulse, and I am not immune. So I am going through and simplifying it, getting rid of rules which are needless complications, and reducing the amount of bureaucracy involved in creating a magic-using character.

 

I won't bother listing how it used to work -- if you've been following the thread, you obviously already know, and if not, then you obviously don't care. But here is how it works now:

 

There are three main avenues of magic: Sorcery, Alchemy, and Theurgy. (There are many more avenues other than these, such as Necromancy, Tantric Magic, etc., but these are not approved by The Academy.)

 

In order to practice magic, a character needs three things:

 

• The Gift (which is an Endurance Reserve)
  
• A Power Skill for the specific avenue of magic the character practices (such as Power Skill: Alchemy)
  
• A Multipower, in which each spell the character knows is a slot (either fixed or flexible, at the player's choice)
  

 

The Gift is not avenue-specific. A character skilled with both Necromancy and Jazz Sorcery has but one Gift which fuels them both.

 

The Power Skill is avenue-specific. The character must buy a Power Skill for any avenue of magic she wishes to practice.

 

The Multipower is also avenue-specific. Each spell Multipower has the Limitation "Requires a Skill Roll; no Active point penalty; subject to skill vs. skill contests". Furthermore, each avenue Mulitpower has specific Advantages and Limitations which are mandatory for that avenue.

 

That, in a nutshell, is the magic system. Much better than my initial effort, which was burdened with numerous unnecessary complications.

 

I am not quite done making all of the revisions to the Rough Magic web site. I will post a link to the modified pages when I am.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Rough Magic

 

I adjusted costs and added descriptions for Correspondences, Invocations, and Precepts:

 

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Correspondences

 

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Invocations

 

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Precepts

 

The cost change was necessitated by the changes in the magic system.