open door spell

[Duke Bushido]

Re: open door spell

 

I pity the Treants' date=' Twig Blights, and Oak Golems that dare get in the way of the Wood to Ash caster...[/quote']

 

 

heh heh heh:

Treant, turning to his massed troops of Treants, Oak golems, etc to soud retreat from above spell:

"Run! Run, Forest! Run!"

 

 

ooooohhhh----

that was bad. But it _so_ had to be done....

 

oh yeah...! I feel much better!

[Lethosos]

Re: open door spell

 

While I like Blackmoor's (not to be confused with BLACKMOOR: The MMRPG, ) method, I figured a different approach...

 

Lockpicking with custom Modifier: No Material Components +1, Incantations (must mime unlocking the door,) linked with Clarivoyance (must check this, but defintly on the Door only.)

 

I'd put a more detailed version up, but I'm in a bit of a hurry-hurry. Simply put, the spell lets you see what lock the door has while you're trying to pick it open--without needing pesky equipment. (If I could, I'd have it not actually increase any existing Lockpicking skill.) Whether the door actually has a lock or not is something that the GM can play with--but it still gives the player a utility spell. If the door has a trap, then it's also up to the GM to determine whether the Clairvoyance can see it.

[psm]

Re: open door spell

 

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but another variation would be to just desolidify the lock. The spellcaster would have to actually open the door while the spell is taking effect.

[Curufea]

Re: open door spell

 

I'm tempted to suggest "how many ways can a lightbulb be changed in Hero rules?"

 

[LordGhee]

Re: open door spell

 

Again the cast lockpicking spell gives you a skill, not a way to work it. The custom modifier just is not appropriate.

 

the logic here is that Tk is what one would use and it cost is alot more. appropriate tk with the skill lockpicking is need to open door ( or tools).

 

Of course in our group disscussion one wag " just throw the Hobbit at it".

 

desolid the lock himmm, intresting. . . .

[Legendsmiths]

Re: open door spell

 

A lot of this depends on the metaphysics of your magic system. I dislike metasystems that allow conferance of an unknown skill via magic. Summon a demon - sure, enhance your skill - sure. Grant you an unknown skill (e.g. TF: Drive Cart) - no.

 

So here are the options I've gleaned:

 

1. Tool Replacement: TK w/ Fine Manipulation and Indirect. You would actually only need at most 3 STR since the average person has an 8, one handed is -5, and that's all the STR most locks would require with a key. Requires Lockpicking Skill. Definitely a force/manipulation spell.

 

2. Ability Enhancement: Lockpicking skill bonus, possibly just PSLs to offset the difficulty of the lock and the lack of tools. Requires Lockpicking Skill. Also a force/manipulation spell - could be combined with #1.

 

3. Bypass I: Desolid on the bolt/barring mechanism, Usable as Attack, very limited to the nature of the target. The door should just open, but you would have a hard time closing it because the bolt would still be thrown. If it were barred and the braces were targeted, the bar would simply drop to the floor. Elemental or Ghostrealm spell, depending on SFX.

 

4. Bypass II: Desolid/Teleport/Tunneling, only to get through the door. Not my favorite.

 

5. Unlock: Lockpicking as the skill with enough bonus to overcome lack of tool penalties (although SFX is sufficient to allow an attempt regardless of lack of tools). Also not my favorite, but direct. I would have to classify this one as Divination, but possibly force/manipulation.

 

6. Bash: Either enough damage to open it (RKA) or enough STR to force it (TK). This could fall under any category of spells, but ultimately destroys the door.

 

7. Make it So!: Transform. Seems like a cop-out, but if it fits your metaphysical model.... This is almost on par with EDM.

 

8. I wish it were unlocked: (now I'm getting into the realm of T&T spell names) EDM to a dimension where the door is unlocked. Perhaps in a True Name spell setting, or Sliders this would be appropriate. I just like poking KS with an EDMstick.

 

A. Locksense: Detect Locking Mechanism, Discriminatory, Targeting. This may be required to see the locking/security mechanism of the door. A divination spell of sorts, although possibly elemental (wood, stone, metal) depending on the make up of the door.

 

B. Lockvision: Clairivoyance. I think this is a bit overkill for Clairsentience, but certainly workable. I think a Detect would be a simpler approach.

 

So, I hope that is a helpful summary. If I missed some solutions, I apologize. I also recognize my list is somewhat weighted towards my preferences, for which I do not apologize

[Lethosos]

Re: open door spell

 

B. Lockvision: Clairivoyance. I think this is a bit overkill for Clairsentience' date=' but certainly workable. I think a Detect would be a simpler approach.[/quote']

Help me out here... do Detects actually let you see the insides of a lock? I'm of the mind that "Detect Lock" only lets you know if there is a lock, and not give you an idea of how to pick it. (If it was Discriminary, then only for the type--not whether it is pickable or not and such detailed nonsense.)

 

That's why I suggested a limited Clairvoyance.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: open door spell

 

Well, I'm thinking along the lines of how a lockpicker actually works. A skilled technician can't see into the lock per se, but he knows the lock and can visualize how his actions play out. That's why I went with Detect, because I feel it provides enough information to represent that level of detail. One doesn't need to actually see the lock, just know its details, which discriminatory would give you, and targeting to allow direct targeting of a lock or bolt mechanism.

[Lethosos]

Re: open door spell

 

Well, your version will work, if the mage in question invested in a fair amount of Lockpicking skill. (I don't consider extra skill levels as "instant familarity," if you've never invested anything into understanding how locks work, in general.) With Clairvoyance, but no skill levels, you've got a specialized utility spell that rogues/unscrupilous mages who wish to not burden themselves with time/associated gear would spend a great deal of effort into learning it, and burn XP for it.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: open door spell

 

I'm thinking more along the lines of having a familiarity in Lockpicking and then use the spell to enhance that.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: open door spell

 

A lot of this depends on the metaphysics of your magic system. I dislike metasystems that allow conferance of an unknown skill via magic. Summon a demon - sure' date=' enhance your skill - sure. Grant you an unknown skill (e.g. TF: Drive Cart) - no.[/quote']

The spell doesn't have to grant you a skill. It simply performs the skill. "Reason from effects." The wizard casts the lockpicking spell, the lock is unlocked. The thief uses his lockpicking skill, the lock is unlocked. Both characters are doing the same thing. The only difference is the SFX and the mechanism behind the ability, which you shouldn't have to pay for. Likewise, a wizard might have a lightning bolt spell without having KS: Electricity. It's the same type of situation: a spell that creates an effect that you otherwise wouldn't be able to create. In one case, the effect is causing a lock to open; in the other, causing a bolt of lightning to shoot forth. Why is the former less plausible than the latter? It seems to me that if anything, it would be the other way around.

 

There are other valid reasons not to allow an Open Locks spell to be bought as Lockpicking Skill (campaign flavor, stepping on the thief's "shtick", utility vs. cost, etc.), but there is nothing wrong with buying a Skill as a Power (or in this case, a spell). The book specifically says you can do this.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: open door spell

 

You could do Dispel Lock, but that would break it (this is explicitly stated in the description of Dispel). How about Suppress Lock? Once you reach the full Active Points of the Power, it shuts off, but the owner can turn it back on.

 

The only question is, what Power are you Suppressing? Could be the lock's BODY?

 

So far, I like this one the best. Nice and elegant, with an unususal take on the idea. Everything I love about HERO!

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: open door spell

 

The spell doesn't have to grant you a skill. It simply performs the skill. ... Likewise' date=' a wizard might have a lightning bolt spell without having KS: Electricity.[/quote']

 

Eminently reasonable. Well done.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: open door spell

 

Eminently reasonable. Well done.

 

Indeed!

 

Rep for common sense and perspective!

[Legendsmiths]

Re: open door spell

 

The spell doesn't have to grant you a skill. It simply performs the skill. "Reason from effects." The wizard casts the lockpicking spell' date=' the lock is unlocked. [/quote']

 

I'm not arguing that it isn't a valid power construct. I believe that it is, nor do I think it is unbalanced. My point is that if your metaphysical model doesn't allow for imbuing skill knowledge, then it isn't appropriate.

 

Sure, I can create a spell that has PS: Cook and it makes my dinner. But how does this happen? What makes such magic possible? The game effect is the dinner gets made, but this is wish magic, without any logic (which is fine). Creating a lightning bolt doesn't require KS: Electricity because the instantiation of elemental power is part of the spell. The caster is summoning forth and directing raw energy. Everything about that spell is understandable (other than how the energy manifests, but that's the magic part). Once the magic is present, it's application is logical and clear. With PS: Cook, once the magic is present it's application is not logical - how does the magic know (since the caster doesn't) how many eggs go into the cake, when the ingrediants are mixed, what kind of pan is required, how long to cook it, and the fact that it needs to be cooked in an oven?

 

That's my point. The magic system you use may allow such wish magic and assume it is part of the magical world. That's fine, fun, and easily handled by the system. I'm just saying that not all metaphysical models allow for that, and if so there are other alternatives for creating such a spell.

[prestidigitator]

Re: open door spell

 

I was just going to say that locks should be built as Computers with the Lockpicking Skill and one Program: "Lock/Unlock as Instructed by Matching Key." Then you just execute opposed rolls...

 

...or use Mind Control vs. the Machine Class of Minds.

 

[Blue Jogger]

Re: open door spell

 

I like the Lockpicking Skill as a spell, since it works as both a Lock and Unlock and gives the thief the ability to defeat magical locks by getting a higher roll. Unless you want to strengthen the door from barbarians bashing the door down, and then that's Entangle.

 

And if you think about it, the idea of a thief picking a lock is a fairly modern idea. The small pin-tumble design used in most modern locks wasn't invented until the 1800s. If you wanted a complicated lock before that time, it had to be huge wooden design. So the idea of a thief looking into a lock and using lockpicks could be equally implausible in some fantasy games.

 

Now, if you want a mage where unlocked doors open and close with a simple gesture. Oddly enough, that's Stretching (w/ Does not cross Intervening space). He waves his hand here and effect happens nearby. Usually 1" is good for doors within 7 feet away. If he can do it with his hands full. That's Extra Limbs.

 

That's the wimpy party version. If you have a Wizard or Jedi with serious muscle, that's TK with (or without) Fine Manipulation.

[Lemurion]

Re: open door spell

 

I'm surprised no one has come up with this method. Use time travel to send the door to a time when it was open.

 

EDM Time travel to a related group of times 25pts, UAA +1, Only works on doors -2.

 

You can add whatever other limitations or advantages you want.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: open door spell

 

Waits for the inevitable rant.

 

[Markdoc]

Re: open door spell

 

And if you think about it' date=' the idea of a thief picking a lock is a fairly modern idea. The small pin-tumble design used in most modern locks wasn't invented until the 1800s. If you wanted a complicated lock before that time, it had to be huge wooden design. So the idea of a thief looking into a lock and using lockpicks could be equally implausible in some fantasy games.[/quote']

 

Oh, no it ain't. Lockpicking has (apparently) been around as long as locks. Long before people could cast the little fiddly bit for modern (or late medieval) locks, they were making them out of wood and metal. Pin tumbler locks go back to the Egyptian middle kingdom (at least) and the pin and tumbler model in which the pins were held in place by metal springs was in existence in early Rome. So were thieves - there were specific laws against owning lockpicks (in those days, a wooden paddle, with a number of holes into which you could insert and lock wooden rods of different length to simulate the teeth in the key).

 

In early medieval england, lockpicking and stealing was a seperate offence from simply stealing and carried much heavier penalties - you could lose a hand for picking a lock, even if you did not steal anything. The rationale was that a) locks were expensive, so anything locked was by deifiition valuable and if you knew how to pick locks, you were by definition a professional thief.

 

Lots of pictures of roman locks and keys here:

http://www.nokey.com/ankeymus.html

 

Just so's ya know....

 

cheers, Mark

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: open door spell

 

Lockpicking has (apparently) been around as long as locks.

 

This is a really good post.

 

From time to time, I add posts like this one to my RPG FAQ page < http://www.rpglibrary.org/articles/faqs/index.php >. Would you mind if I added this to that page as a FAQ entry? You would, of course receive proper attribution (see "Wishes", < http://www.rpglibrary.org/articles/faqs/wishes.php >, for an example).

[Shike019]

Re: open door spell

 

Personally, I like the dispel version best. I have been involved (heavily in the past) with play DND and I find that the Knock spell is one of the best utility spells in the game. It has almost no combat effect, it doesn't dispel traps, it just allows a mage to get by those pesky locked doors, especially if he is the one that has locked them.

 

I also feel that in a High Fantasy setting where magic is prominant (like traditional DND for example) Some mage, Somehwere would have developed this spell.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: open door spell

 

Personally' date=' I like the dispel version best.[/quote']

 

I think it's a neat idea, but how would you calculate the active point cost of a locked door? The Body of the door? The Body of the lock? The hypothetical Locksmithing skill of the person who created the lock?

 

For game balance reasons, I would want to use whatever would result in the highest number of active points. How would you handle it?

 

Perversely enough, it would actually be easier with a magically-locked door than it would be for an ordinary stout door with well-made locks. You'll always know how many points are in a magician's Wizard Lock spell.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: open door spell

 

Okay, I have in mind four "open door" type spells of varying power.

 

Access Of the Novice http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Spell_-_Access_Of_The_Novice

Access Of the Adept http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Spell_-_Access_Of_The_Adept

Access Of The Master

Access Of The Archmage

 

The first and cheapest just blows the lock to pieces.

 

The second has the combined TK and Lockpicking that has been discussed a great deal in this thread.

 

Access Of The Master will be Desolidification, Usable Only As An Attack, Area Effect Line, Only to pass through walls, portals, and other obstructions (-1/4) , Can't pass through a properly drawn magic circle (-1/4) (in addition to other Advantages and Limitations I won't bore you with right now). The special effect is that doors open, portcullises rise, passages open in solid stone, and so on.

 

Access Of The Archmage will be a Suppress versus every power of a special effect, that special effect being anything and everything which prevents the caster from accessing a particular lace or thing (in addition to other Advantages and Limitations I won't bore you with right now). The amount of the Suppress will be arbitrarily huge, to forestall any argument about the Active Cost of non-magical locked portcullises, and to ensure that it costs more than Access Of The Master. The special effect is that doors open, portcullises rise, passages open in solid stone, and so on.

 

Before I work out the fine details that are specific to my game, I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts on these two methods of gaining access to where one has been excluded.

[Markdoc]

Re: open door spell

 

This is a really good post.

 

From time to time, I add posts like this one to my RPG FAQ page < http://www.rpglibrary.org/articles/faqs/index.php >. Would you mind if I added this to that page as a FAQ entry? You would, of course receive proper attribution (see "Wishes", < http://www.rpglibrary.org/articles/faqs/wishes.php >, for an example).

 

Hey, go ahead. Anything I post is open source as far as I am concerned

 

cheers, Mark