Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

[Guest Black Lotus]

In trying to convert Kult: Beyond the Veil to Hero, I just realized that the entire Power system doesn't handle simple abstractions very well at all, unless perhaps you create an extremely complex writeup with plenty of house rules and handwaving.

 

For example, take this Kult spell (I may be slightly off on the name). I'll just describe the FX here for you. Keep in mind this is an occult ritual, with a wealth of tools, gestures, powder and chalk patterns, incantations, and the like necessary for the casting of the spell. This is from memory, but it's the gist of it.

 

Knowledge of the Ancients

 

Basically, over the course of a few hours, the Conjurer sets up their casting circle, marking the floor with arcane symbols and patterns and the names of various supernatural beings. This is done with the aid of a couple of tools, the Wand and the Cup. To hide the ritual from the eyes of supernatural beings who would wish to prevent the ritual, said beings must be banished by the Conjurer. The Subject -- the person upon whom the Conjurer will be working the ritual -- must be present and nude during this time.

 

The way it works is that once the Conjurer has finished setting up the circle, the nude Subject lays down in the middle of the casting circle and is drugged and anesthetized. Over the course of approximately THREE DAYS, the Conjurer then reads and brings the ancestral memories out of the Subject's skin and flesh by tatooing magical symbols and patterns all over the Subject's body, from head to toe.

 

When all is said and the tatooing is done, the Subject's ancient memories, from past lives and beyond, all the way back to before humans lost their divinity, are now accessible to the subject if he or she concentrates on the appropriate pattern on their skin.

______________________________________

 

 

So... yeah. You thought statting out a Lamborghini Diablo as faithfully as possible, with rocket launcher add-ons was tough? At least you know where to start. I don't even KNOW what I'm going to do with this one. May have to invent a whole new mechanic.

 

I know no one in their right mind would touch this build with a ten-foot pole, but if you have any suggestions, please do let me know.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

Actually,it could be both.At the very least,the subject should have Eidetic Memory (to remember all that ancestral knowledge) and Retrocognition (to gain access to past selves memories).

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

Yeah, nevereverend and Southern Cross said.

 

Thisn't really that hard of a power to stat out.

 

Is there something else in the nature of the power that you aren't describing?

 

What other powers are there in Kult that would be difficult to do?

 

In the threat that I started for creating powers to fill in the "thin" areas for the current power regime I listed a few areas that I felt weren't covered very well. Maybe I should reserect it so we could get some discussion on this matter...

 

TB

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

The thing is, this Power -- belonging to the Conjurer -- permanently grants another character a different Power of his own. I'll have to think long and hard about how to represent this in the rules. You see, when the Subject can remember all the way back to before humans lost their divinity (in the cosmology of the game), he gains some extremely important knowledge as pertains to the game setting.

 

I'm not sure if there's a rule really for granting another character a Power of this sort -- through the use of the Conjurer's own Power -- so I have to think about it.

 

In effect, what the "Ancient Memory" Power does is "Grants taret Power 'X'," whatever that might be. Potentially unbalancing, since I know of no way to force the target of a spell to pay character points for being the recipient of another Power which grants the target new Powers.

 

EDIT: And getting access to these memories -- NOT JUST memories from the present but of all the memories from past lives -- is mainly a roleplaying effect, which is hard to represent with point values in Hero.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

The thing is, this Power -- belonging to the Conjurer -- permanently grants another character a different Power of his own. I'll have to think long and hard about how to represent this in the rules. You see, when the Subject can remember all the way back to before humans lost their divinity (in the cosmology of the game), he gains some extremely important knowledge as pertains to the game setting.

 

I'm not sure if there's a rule really for granting another character a Power of this sort -- through the use of the Conjurer's own Power -- so I have to think about it.

 

In effect, what the "Ancient Memory" Power does is "Grants taret Power 'X'," whatever that might be. Potentially unbalancing, since I know of no way to force the target of a spell to pay character points for being the recipient of another Power which grants the target new Powers.

I'd make it a Major Transform then (Target to Target w/Power X)

 

The whole Permanent Power thing screams that it's a Transform. Maybe even Target into Target w/VPP (however many points that the GM feels Knowledge in general can grant)

 

TB

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

I'd make it a Major Transform then (Target to Target w/Power X)

 

The whole Permanent Power thing screams that it's a Transform. Maybe even Target into Target w/VPP (however many points that the GM feels Knowledge in general can grant)

 

TB

 

I know it screams Transform, but there are game balance issues at stake, too. Perhaps the value of the Power can be... yes, balanced out by a Disadvantage like Distinguishing Features (full-body arcane tatoos).

 

Yes... I like that idea.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

By George, I think I've GOT it! A Major Transform (Mind) that bestows a "Knowledge Skill: Ancient Memory (or some such)" on the target. Along with an extra... what are those called... superficial? Transform to show the Limitation for the Distinctive Features (or however that's done, I know it's in Transform's description somewhere, including the Disads with the gained abilities).

 

Man, took me long enough to think of making it a KS. Write up to follow... whenever it gets finished.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

You don't need a second Transform to do the Tattoos. Either declare it as part of the effect, or take it as a Side Effect.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

Knowledge of the Ancients

 

Basically, over the course of a few hours, the Conjurer sets up their casting circle, marking the floor with arcane symbols and patterns and the names of various supernatural beings. This is done with the aid of a couple of tools, the Wand and the Cup. To hide the ritual from the eyes of supernatural beings who would wish to prevent the ritual, said beings must be banished by the Conjurer. The Subject -- the person upon whom the Conjurer will be working the ritual -- must be present and nude during this time.

 

The way it works is that once the Conjurer has finished setting up the circle, the nude Subject lays down in the middle of the casting circle and is drugged and anesthetized. Over the course of approximately THREE DAYS, the Conjurer then reads and brings the ancestral memories out of the Subject's skin and flesh by tatooing magical symbols and patterns all over the Subject's body, from head to toe.

 

When all is said and the tatooing is done, the Subject's ancient memories, from past lives and beyond, all the way back to before humans lost their divinity, are now accessible to the subject if he or she concentrates on the appropriate pattern on their skin.

 

I like the Transform approach. Presumably, the Transform would end if the tattoos were removed or severely obscured in some way.

 

Another approach would be to purchase this as KS: Ancient Knowledge Usable by Others with some number of multipliers (say x32 targets; should be lots). Let's assume the KS is to be at +5 (a pretty fair bonus figure), since it sounds pretty reliable, and set it as follows:

 

KS: Ancients Knowledge INT roll at +5 (8 points),

 

Limitations on the skill itself: Concentration (user is at half DCV throughout use of skill; -1/2 - as he concentrates on the tattooo) so the Real Cost of the power to be imparted on others is 5 points. This real cost becomes the base cost for the UoO ability (5er p 276)

 

Usable by Others (+1/4), x 32 targets (+1 1/4), Persistent (+1/2 - so LOS is not required after making the power UOO), Uncontrolled (+1/2 - to remove the need to stay within some range of the caster) Total advantages +2 1/2

 

Extra Time (3 days; -4); OAF: Wand, Cup and components for Circle (-1, unless some are expendeble and hard to obtain); Gestures throughout activation time (-1/2); Requires PS: Tattooing and KS: Knowledge of Ancients rolls (-3/4 as two skills, reduced to -1/2 as they are Background skills); Side effects (Minor always happens; affects recipient only; -1/4 - gives target Distinctive Features) Total limitations -6 1/4

 

5 x 3.5/7.25 = 2

 

Total cost: 7 points

[tarragon]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

Is this something you do to someone who doesn't want it? It doesn't sound like it from the write-up above. In that case just have the recipient buy whatever power you consider appropriate and make the ritual be the method that allows them to buy the power.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

Is this something you do to someone who doesn't want it? It doesn't sound like it from the write-up above. In that case just have the recipient buy whatever power you consider appropriate and make the ritual be the method that allows them to buy the power.

 

I don't want to do that because the ritual must be learned, and the relative power of the spells and rituals you can learn depends upon your knowledge of the lore in question. In other words, in Kult it functions as a Power, up to and including END loss and Foci, so I'd rather write it as a Transform.

 

Normally the rules require the user of the Power to know a skill before they can bestow it using Transform, but I will waive that in this special case. The tattoos will grant a Knowledge Skill: "Ancient Knowledge" 19-, and some very difficult-to-conceal Distinctive Features.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

I think you're on the right track with the KS..

 

I'd still use Transform as the Power that the caster has.

 

Major Transform: Person w/ KS: Ancient Knowledge 19- (Limitation: Visible (tattoos) on the KS.); Ritual: Extra Time: 3 Days, Incantations, Gestures, OAF Focus (the person in this case).

 

you're using the Transform to add 10AP/8RP to the target.

 

The Target also becomes the Focus of the spell (no target. no spell).

 

I picked a 19- for the KS as it's a ncie high number and is mostly arbitrary. Yes I know you don't normally buy Limitations on a skill, but somtimes you just need to.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

I think you're on the right track with the KS..

 

I'd still use Transform as the Power that the caster has.

 

Of course. It's the only way I know of to confer semi-permanent abilities on a target... I think.

 

Major Transform: Person w/ KS: Ancient Knowledge 19- (Limitation: Visible (tattoos) on the KS.); Ritual: Extra Time: 3 Days, Incantations, Gestures, OAF Focus (the person in this case).

 

you're using the Transform to add 10AP/8RP to the target.

 

The Target also becomes the Focus of the spell (no target. no spell).

 

I picked a 19- for the KS as it's a ncie high number and is mostly arbitrary. Yes I know you don't normally buy Limitations on a skill, but somtimes you just need to.

 

I think I'm going to have it be a Minor Transform. The tattoos by themselves would constitute only a Cosmetic change, and the addition of a single KS really doesn't QUITE strike me as Major. After all, they're imprinted soul memories that the Target already has (in a manner of speaking), not something like SS: Biology or the like.

 

Also, the Tatoos are Distinctive Features (Conceal Only With Difficulty, 10 Ponts). The -19 KS roll I chose also costs 10 points, and I think this is not only realistic but balanced as far as character points go.

 

Finally, the Foci are the tools, powders, the altar, and the room (temple) -- and an Immoble Assembly OAF, at that. No need to mention the target of the Power in the Power's stats... that's already assumed. And of course, the Healing of the Transform would be "Cosmetic tattoo Removal" or some such.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

I'd still use Transform as the Power that the caster has.

 

Major Transform: Person w/ KS: Ancient Knowledge 19- (Limitation: Visible (tattoos) on the KS.); Ritual: Extra Time: 3 Days, Incantations, Gestures, OAF Focus (the person in this case).

 

you're using the Transform to add 10AP/8RP to the target.

 

I'd call it Major Transform: Person to Person w/ KS: Ancient Knowledge 19- and DF: Tattoos (conceal w/major effort; noticed; Ritual: Extra Time: 3 Days, Incantations, Gestures, OAF Focus (the magic circle and other objects noted in the initial description).

 

The person gets the skill at the cost of the DF, so no net change in points. The target isn't a Focus - he's the target.

 

You can add some other limits, such as Target must be Willing, Concentrate while activating, etc. You could also either reduce Extra Time (and use a smaller # of Transfer dice) or make Extra Time "only to activate" so you could use only 1d6, but use it as many times (phases) as needed after the initial activation, with the power needing to be reactivated to affect a new target.

 

So 1d6 Major Transform: Person to Person w/ KS: Ancient Knowledge 19- and DF: Tattoos (conceal w/major effort; noticed; Ritual: Extra Time: 3 Days to activate (-2), Incantations throughout activation time (-1/2), Gestures throughout actication time (-1/2), OAF Focus - the magic circle and other objects noted in the initial description (-1); RSR: KS: Ancient Knowledge + PS: Tattoo Artist (-1/2); Side Effects (target gains 10 pts DF even if it fails; -1/4); Target must be 0 DCV (-1/4)*

 

* Lowballed since there's not likely much call to do this to an unwilling target, especially as you'd need to hold them captive for three days.

 

So 15/6 = 2 points. The user pays a lot more to have the skills to cast it than for the spell itself, actually.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

Of course. It's the only way I know of to confer semi-permanent abilities on a target... I think.

 

 

 

I think I'm going to have it be a Minor Transform. The tattoos by themselves would constitute only a Cosmetic change, and the addition of a single KS really doesn't QUITE strike me as Major. After all, they're imprinted soul memories that the Target already has (in a manner of speaking), not something like SS: Biology or the like.

 

Also, the Tatoos are Distinctive Features (Conceal Only With Difficulty, 10 Ponts). The -19 KS roll I chose also costs 10 points, and I think this is not only realistic but balanced as far as character points go.

 

Finally, the Foci are the tools, powders, the altar, and the room (temple) -- and an Immoble Assembly OAF, at that. No need to mention the target of the Power in the Power's stats... that's already assumed. And of course, the Healing of the Transform would be "Cosmetic tattoo Removal" or some such.

 

Well there you go.. not difficult at all.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

I'd call it Major Transform: Person to Person w/ KS: Ancient Knowledge 19- and DF: Tattoos (conceal w/major effort; noticed; Ritual: Extra Time: 3 Days, Incantations, Gestures, OAF Focus (the magic circle and other objects noted in the initial description).

 

The person gets the skill at the cost of the DF, so no net change in points. The target isn't a Focus - he's the target.

 

You can add some other limits, such as Target must be Willing, Concentrate while activating, etc. You could also either reduce Extra Time (and use a smaller # of Transfer dice) or make Extra Time "only to activate" so you could use only 1d6, but use it as many times (phases) as needed after the initial activation, with the power needing to be reactivated to affect a new target.

 

So 1d6 Major Transform: Person to Person w/ KS: Ancient Knowledge 19- and DF: Tattoos (conceal w/major effort; noticed; Ritual: Extra Time: 3 Days to activate (-2), Incantations throughout activation time (-1/2), Gestures throughout actication time (-1/2), OAF Focus - the magic circle and other objects noted in the initial description (-1); RSR: KS: Ancient Knowledge + PS: Tattoo Artist (-1/2); Side Effects (target gains 10 pts DF even if it fails; -1/4); Target must be 0 DCV (-1/4)*

 

* Lowballed since there's not likely much call to do this to an unwilling target, especially as you'd need to hold them captive for three days.

 

So 15/6 = 2 points. The user pays a lot more to have the skills to cast it than for the spell itself, actually.

 

Indeed, the target must be willing. In Kult, however, there is no need for the Conjurer to have any skill at tatooing (it's part of the SFX of the Power) or to actually know KS: Ancient Knowledge himself (and it's unique from person to person, anyway. Think of it as a KS for a specific person -- the target has a Skill that tells him about himself -- only himself in all past lives. Like KS: Steve Long's Past Lives as a Skill possessed by Steve Long). Therefore, I waive the part of the rules that says the user of the Power must know the Skill himself to confer it to another person.

 

Again, I don't think bestowing a single KS and tattoing someone physically constitutes a Major Transform (I mean, turning someone into a frog and granting them a bit of insight into their past lives and memories are pretty far apart). Plus the spell always succeeds on a willing target, so I have to build it with lots of d6s anyway.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

what constitutes Major and Minor Transform will always vary from game to game. That in mind, adding a KS and a DF to a person isn't a small thing either. It all depends on what kind of transformative abilities exist within the game itself. If this kind of Transform is rare and on the high end of changing a person then it's Major, if this kind of thing is a relative small matter then it's Minor.

 

Go with the flavor of your campaign for the level of Transform you want to use.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

what constitutes Major and Minor Transform will always vary from game to game.

 

Oh my, yes, and in Kult, the sort of Transformations possible within the setting are quite extensive. In fact, spontaneous and permanent Cosmetic transformations can happen to a player character simply because his mental balance falls too low. So I think Minor covers this fairly well.

 

That in mind' date=' adding a KS and a DF to a person isn't a small thing either. It all depends on what kind of transformative abilities exist within the game itself. If this kind of Transform is rare and on the high end of changing a person then it's Major, if this kind of thing is a relative small matter then it's Minor.[/quote']

 

True enough. My rationale for possibly labelling it Minor is twofold: first, that a character could get full-body tattoos without the use of the Power anyway (since even though they're magical, all it does in game terms in regard to the rest of the game universe is act as a Distinctive feature), and second, that the KS is one which the target already possesses, but which is simply locked away from him (knowledge of past lives).

[Ganesh]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

Why not make it a perk, "able to teach others the Ancient Knowledge skill, requires big schmancy ritual"? The transform might be a useful way to get some notion of the point value, but "I give other people the excuse to spend character points on something important" feels much more like a perk to me...like "access to military hardware" or "great gobs of money".

 

This approach makes more sense if there are a fair number of "let someone else change their character sheet" spells. You can then price them according to how common you want the restricted powers they make possible to be.

 

 

Come to think of it, it seems like Kult has an entirely different approach to XP and character sheet modification than HERO. For a sensible conversion, you might want to take that into account.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

i like the transform idea. Because it grants mostly intangible roleplaying advantages, it might also have a perk assosicated with it.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

Why not make it a perk, "able to teach others the Ancient Knowledge skill, requires big schmancy ritual"? The transform might be a useful way to get some notion of the point value, but "I give other people the excuse to spend character points on something important" feels much more like a perk to me...like "access to military hardware" or "great gobs of money".

 

This approach makes more sense if there are a fair number of "let someone else change their character sheet" spells. You can then price them according to how common you want the restricted powers they make possible to be.

 

Well, because a powerful magcal ritual is best represented by a Power, for one thing. I don't know of any Perquisites that even resemble a Power, let alone this one. All the trappings of the ritual can be represented with Powers, Advantages, Adders, and Limitations, whereas with a Perk I would have to do it all from scratch. Also, using Transform, I can properly represent the abilities conferred upon the target.

 

Also, the Ad/ Disad value is even Stevens. The Tranform Advantage is 10 Character Points, and the DF Disad is also 10 points. So no gain or loss.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

I'd knock the DF down to minor difficulty or lower to conceal. Tatoos are not that hard to hide.

 

Are they covering every square inch of skin to include hands and face? Do they glow? If not, they are not that hard to conceal.

 

TB

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

I'd knock the DF down to minor difficulty or lower to conceal. Tatoos are not that hard to hide.

 

Are they covering every square inch of skin to include hands and face? Do they glow? If not, they are not that hard to conceal.

 

TB

 

They cover every square inch. The only way to conceal them all is gloves, shoes and socks, long pants, long shirt or robe, and a deep cowl. So it's a "Conceal only with difficulty or Disguise" for 10 points.

[Markdoc]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

Also, one possibilty would be to use a VPP - a skillpool.

 

Normally I frown upon such things, but since the description says that the user needs to concentrate on a tattoo to recall the memories, that would work. The reason I suggest it depends on how you see it working.

 

If the characters are faced with a clay tablet covered in obscure heiroglyphs and tattooed guy once lived in Uruk he can either say:

 

"Hey - I recognise those - that's Sumerian!" (KS: Sumerian)

 

or:

 

Hey - I recognise those - that's Sumerian! It says olefertangfertangbiscuit barrel..." (Lang: Sumerian)

 

In other words do you want the recipient to KNOW about stuff or do you want him to DO stuff.

 

10 points should buy you a pool sufficient for 1 or two skills (depending on how you choose to format it) that the character can change at will: sort of super-cramming.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Occult Powers Difficult to Stat in Hero

 

Indeed' date=' the target must be willing.[/quote']

 

Given it takes three days, your only real options are a kidnap victim or a willing participant. I didn't see much call for forcing someone to gain the ability to recall their past lives by concentrating on tattoos, so I don't see any further limitation for the requirement that the target be willing.

 

In Kult' date=' however, there is no need for the Conjurer to have any skill at tatooing (it's part of the SFX of the Power) or to actually know KS: Ancient Knowledge himself (and it's unique from person to person, anyway. Think of it as a KS for a specific person -- the target has a Skill that tells him about himself -- only himself in all past lives. Like KS: Steve Long's Past Lives as a Skill possessed by Steve Long).[/quote']

 

Simple - remove RSR, or replace it with a more typical Magic Skill Roll (given the caster must have nystic powers anyway, I assume).

 

Therefore' date=' I waive the part of the rules that says the user of the Power must know the Skill himself to confer it to another person.[/quote']

 

I don't see an issue here. My reference to "cost of the skills" was the RSR skills, not the skill to be imparted. This really is a "skill as a power" situation, so it makes sense to waive the "caster must possess the skill" requirement.

 

Again' date=' I don't think bestowing a single KS and tattoing someone physically constitutes a Major Transform (I mean, turning someone into a frog and granting them a bit of insight into their past lives and memories are pretty far apart).[/quote']

 

I thought about Minor, rather than Major, as well. Ultimately, the cost difference wasn't enough to consider it further. But I'd agree this is pretty minor compared to, say, becoming a frog or being possessed by a demon.

 

Plus the spell always succeeds on a willing target' date=' so I have to build it with lots of d6s anyway.[/quote']

 

5e Transform is cumulative by nature. 4e Transform could be made Cumulative by an advantage. My take above was based on activating the 1d6 Transform, then using in repeatedly (one segment at a time) until it finished the transformation. It's taking three days - what's another turn?

 

The only problem arises if someone has Power Defense. If this is considered a reasonable possibility, you might want to make the Transform penetrating to guarantee some effect from each use, Maybe it now takes a minute or two for a full Transform, but it still gets there. Given it always succeeds, the Side Effects aren't limiting and should go.

 

So 1d6 Minor Transform: Person to Person w/ KS: Past Lives 19- and DF: Tattoos (conceal w/major effort); noticed; Penetrating twice (+1)*; Ritual: Extra Time: 3 Days to activate (-2), Incantations throughout activation time (-1/2), Gestures throughout activation time (-1/2), OAF Focus - the magic circle and other objects noted in the initial description (-1); Target must be 0 DCV (-1/4)

 

* That should guarantee some effect from each "attack". It's likely overkill

 

Maybe RSR: Magic Skill. Maybe the caster must Concentrate throughout activation time. Maybe Extra END, since 1 END per phase is pretty low. Maybe those are two handed gestures for an extra -1/4. We need a lot of added limits to save another point of real cost.

 

As is, it's 20 AP, 4 RP.

 

I like the "perk" idea, as well, although the structure above is a net CP wash. The cost of the poerk could simply be set at 4 or 5 points, based on the above costing.