Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

HERO' date=' even with it's optional rules- DOES NOT. My work, even with all its up front admitted failures- DOES.[/quote']

 

I will have to disagree here, for the reasons I stated above. I do agree that your work does do what you say it does, but I also agree that the existing rules can work, as I have played them to great effect.

 

As for wierd gun realities, my Mother is an anesthisist. They got a case the other day where a man stuck a .357 mag right between the eyes and lived. Although he lost his eyesite and most of his forehead he is expected to recover. As gruesome as that is, it is also illustrative. Ball rounds enter in the arm and come out the chest, people have taken 9 rounds of 9mm to the chest and lived. Things happen. Guns are not as lethal has movies would lead us to believe... if you don't strike a vital location you are unlikely to kill the target, except through bleeding. To some extent that's what the damage roll does, but that is also the purpose of hit location.

 

Grant you, if you are playing a game without Hit Location then the damages as listed are inadequate. With hit location I think they work just fine. Could they be better? Perhaps, but when does the tweaking stop and the playing begin?

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I do agree that your work does do what you say it does, but I also agree that the existing rules can work, as I have played them to great effect.

 

I'm sure the existing rules can be played. But they fail greatly in any reality test.

 

The use of hit location and the other various rules vastly overstate the effectiveness of rifles, making non-lethal/non-crippling shots far less likely than they are in reality. This is unacceptable to one with my goals.

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Joe Average is 8 BODY' date=' not 10. [/quote']

 

I will never use Stat 8 to represent a typical combatant. Such characters flat out lack the required STR to even use common weapons in the game. They are non-functional.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I'm sure the existing rules can be played. But they fail greatly in any reality test.

Please don't pretend to know more than I about what is realistic when it comes to guns - you have no idea where my knowledge ends or begins. I respect your knowledge and what you've researched, and I think the rules you have come up with do a great job. But I also think the rules as is do not fail greatly every reality test. That is an overstatement.

 

In many ways your rules and my points above are very similar. For most pistols you double armor and leave rifles as is, but many of your pistols do x2 to x1.5 damage as well. My suggestion to add AP to rifles isn't all that different, although unarmored pistol shots in your system are more lethal than they are as I suggest them.

 

I don't see how hit locations overstate the effectiveness of rifles. Rifles to vital locations are deadly. Non-lethal/non-crippling shots are very likely even with rifles. A 2d6 or 2d6+1K attack will typically cause an impairing wound, but I think that's appropriate and you still get a CON roll to avoid it (5ER 416) in the head and torso. Most people shot in the torso will be impaired, but some with either be fit enough to work through it (make CON roll) or the damage roll will be insufficient to cause an impairing wound (6 BODY for a 10 BODY hero).

 

That seems like it works for me, and leaving the pistol damages alone allows heroes to take multiple shots, as one would hope they could.

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

But I also think the rules as is do not fail greatly every reality test. That is an overstatement..

 

Not by a great deal. The use of the necessary offical option rules needed to bring pistols into line with their real world effectives greatly over powers the effectiveness of the rifles presented in the game.

 

There's no way to avoid that unless the damages of either the pistols or rifles are changed. It's just that simple.

 

If you can't see that, I'm sorry for you. You need to do more research.

 

 

My suggestion to add AP to rifles isn't all that different, although unarmored pistol shots in your system are more lethal than they are as I suggest them.

 

I haven't given your own house rules any consideration what so ever. I'm only concerned with the failures of the official rules.

 

I assume that there are many ways of solving the problem. I considered a number before selecting the method I did and the final selection was of course a matter of taste.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I will never use Stat 8 to represent a typical combatant. Such characters flat out lack the required STR to even use common weapons in the game. They are non-functional.

 

Not at all. Have you seen the average person try to fire a gun accurately, even with training? Most 9mm pistols have a 9 STR Min. This means, since damage is not based on STR, that an 8 STR person would be -1 OCV to use the weapon. However, if he held it in two hands, which is good pistol technique, they would get +3 STR, taking their STR to 11, allowing them to wield nearly all the pistols and half of the submachineguns in the book. Rifles are an interesting issue since it would seem that even a 10 STR man couldn't wield a Rifle, but most people have a very hard time in the standing rifle position and require some kind of support, either from their elbow or other apparatus. In this situation, even a STR 8 person is only -1 OCV to use an M16, and -2 to use an AK47 (possibly adding to the view that the AK is less accurate). That seems very realistic to me as I have seen many soldier struggle to fire their M16s accurately in the standing position.

 

STR 8 is functional as presented in the rules, and they can be effective in combat, although the challenges they face seem very realistic.

[schir1964]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Just wanted to throw out a couple standard rules to see whether anyone actually uses them or not.

 

...(Placed Shot modifiers are halved), and any attack which hits him will do 2x STUN...

 

...A character in a state of unconciousness can be killed automatically as a Full Phase Action by any character with the means to do so (a Killing Attack or other powerful attack)...

Now I would presume that the whole Knocked Out thing implies a "Non-Resisting" target and allows for the "Coup-de-gras" maneuver.

 

This isn't even an optional rule, but the standard ones. How many actually use this to increase the lethality of weapons?

 

Just Curious

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Not by a great deal. The use of the necessary offical option rules needed to bring pistols into line with their real world effectives greatly over powers the effectiveness of the rifles presented in the game.

 

There's no way to avoid that unless the damages of either the pistols or rifles are changed. It's just that simple.

 

If you can't see that, I'm sorry for you. You need to do more research.

Keep this impersonal, but if you feel the need to apologize for your pretensious misunderstanding of my ballistics knowledge I accept.

I haven't given your own house rules any consideration what so ever. I'm only concerned with the failures of the official rules.

I appreciate the amount of effort you have given to consider my 1 house rule (AP and rifles). The point I am trying to make is that everything I have stated here are official rules. Yes impairing rules are optional and have been for over 15 years, how does that make them any less valid than your optional rules.

 

You seem unwilling to believe that the optional rules as presented in the book can work. Your subjective reality tells you that the book is wrong and you are right, without err. This attitude is not constructive and adds little to the discussion. Presenting your points fairly and objectively adds value. Stating that "you have done the research", "the rules are wrong", "my solution is as good as it gets" helps no one other than being a feeble attempt to win people over to seeing that the gun-cult of Fox1 has the answers to gun fighting in Hero.

 

I think your system works and I think it does an admirable job of reflecting realistic gun play as well as anyone can. I am suggesting that the optional rules can come close to that with very little change if played in a particular manner. I agree most people do not play the 8 stat value normals like Steve Long apparently does and I do. That's fine. In that situation you have to adjust. However, the rules as presented perhaps make that 8 stat assumption and with as a result have fewer issues than with a 10 stat assumption. So, not only are you changing how guns are handled but you are redefining the baseline normal.

 

Reality is one thing, your reality is another, and Hero's reality a third. We as gamers choose somewhere along that spectrum, but that doesn't invalidate one over the other. Please stop being so perjorative and lets discuss guns.

 

I like them. They're shiney.

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Not at all. Have you seen the average person try to fire a gun accurately' date=' even with training?[/quote']

 

I've trained people.

 

I find your logic in this post seriously flawed, mistaking common and given physiological mechanics of the human body governing marksmanship for something related to STR MIN.

 

I’m uncertain at this point if this is just BS you’re throwing to justify the current rules, or true ignorance on your part. I am however becoming more certain that you’re not a person open to reason on this subject.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Just wanted to throw out a couple standard rules to see whether anyone actually uses them or not.

This isn't even an optional rule, but the standard ones. How many actually use this to increase the lethality of weapons?

For NPCs I think that's fine. For Heroes I have the weapon do max damage (and x2 STUN if approrpriate) in addition to hit location modifiers, as well as bypassing armor if it is "real armor".

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

This isn't even an optional rule, but the standard ones. How many actually use this to increase the lethality of weapons?

 

I use the rule, however it seldom comes into play due to the genre style.

 

 

I think however if anyone is of the opinion that I specifically wished to increase lethality across the board, they are gravenly mistaken. I took great care to avoid doing that when the system is viewed in total.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I've trained people.

 

I find your logic in this post seriously flawed, mistaking common and given physiological mechanics of the human body governing marksmanship for something related to STR MIN.

 

I’m uncertain at this point if this is just BS you’re throwing to justify the current rules, or true ignorance on your part. I am however becoming more certain that you’re not a person open to reason on this subject.

 

Wow, amazing, so have I. And yet we come to different conclusions. If we were only open minded enough to consider the other opinion....

 

I agree there are other factors here, including the persons intellect, ability to control their body, fear, many other issues. STR is but one. I am simply pointing out that the rules as listed can do a fair approximation of reality, albeit flawed, but still playable.

 

Please do not call me ignorant, stupid, or close-minded. I am being extremely civil and I want to know what you know. Please share, but don't be unfriendly. Please.

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Please do not call me ignorant' date=' stupid, or close-minded. I am being extremely civil and I want to know what you know. Please share, but don't be unfriendly. Please.[/quote']

 

There really isn't anything more to be said to a person who thinks the result of using the full impair/disable rules as given in the rulebook on 8 body targets with the rifle/pistol damages in the game is realistic.

 

There is no further reason to continue the exchange. It's like running into someone who insists that E=MC instead of E=MC^2.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Interesting perspective. I am open to understanding why you think the rules are broken. All I've gotten from you is that your rules are better with no explanation why. You seem to feel that it should be obvious, while I have actually provided data to support my position, whether you accept it or not.

 

If you feel like you are up against a wall, its only a wall that you've built. As opposed to being reasonable you have been nothing but arrogant. I certainly hope your friends appreciate the effort you have gone through to deliver them a realistic game, and their appreciation is enough to keep you going.

 

You have contributed nothing to this conversation other than derision, and seem to only be here for the purposes of self-serving promotion. I for one am happy that you no longer deem this discussion worthy of your input, because I concur.

 

At least we can agree on something. Now, back to our discussion of pistols....

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I figure I put enough research into this to warrant its own thread. The first list contains the Damage Classes I have devised for calibered pistol ammunition, the second list contains the Damage Classes I have devised for metric pistol ammunition. Feel free to use these lists as a reference when statting out your pistols.

 

• .22: 4 DC
  
• .25 Auomatic Colt Pistol: 4 DC
  
• .32 Automatic Colt Pistol: 5 DC
  
• .380 Automatic Colt Pistol: 5 DC
  
• .357 Magnum/ .357 SIG: 6 DC
  
• .38 Special: 6 DC
  
• .400 Cor-Bon: 6 DC
  
• .40 Smith & Wesson: 6 DC
  
• .45 Automatic Colt Pistol: 7 DC
  
• .454 Casull: 7 DC
  
• .44 Automatic Magnum Pistol/.44 Magnum: 8 DC
  
• .50 AE: 9 DC (change back to 8 DC if you don't want to go this far).

• 5.45mm: 4 DC
  
• 5.56mm: 4 DC
  
• 7.62mm, 7.62x17mm: 5 DC
  
• 9mm Makarov: 5 DC
  
• 9x18mm Makarov: 6 DC
  
• 9mm Parabellum: 6 DC
  
• 10mm: 6 DC
  
• 9x21mm Russian: 7 DC
  
• 5.7mm (AET): 7 DC
  
• 12.3mm: 8 DC
  
• 12.5mm: 8 DC

I think this is a good spread, and am curious to see what the context is with rifles. I think it's a little high, but it certainly is progressive.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I'd just like to point out that, whether or not you agree with Fox1's way of handling firearms statistics in Hero, he's done all his homework, read several salient books and articles on the subject, and assembled the data on his website for all to see. I learned quite a lot that I didn't know from his articles, and I know quite a bit about firearms myself.

[MisterBaldy]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

So...

 

How would this information be applied to Long Arms, or even Assault & Automatic Weapons?

 

Just Curious.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I've trained people.

 

I find your logic in this post seriously flawed, mistaking common and given physiological mechanics of the human body governing marksmanship for something related to STR MIN.

 

I’m uncertain at this point if this is just BS you’re throwing to justify the current rules, or true ignorance on your part. I am however becoming more certain that you’re not a person open to reason on this subject.

 

 

He has a good point, the fact you don't agree doesn't make it BS, STRMIN includes many things including weight and general awkwardness, why shouldn't it consider body mechanics. I'm sorry to inform you of this but at least in this thread you are the one without an open mind. You seem quick to insult alll who offer alternate ideas. You might be surprised but I did pretty much everything you've done with your rules without going outside of HERO's existing rules (not the current writeups, but the current rules, there is a difference). My damage stats are much lower (.45 does 1d6+1 not 3d6-1) but that is personal preference, I included most of the factors you have including penetration, stun mod, range, and recoil as well as several factors you did not, so you see we are not all ignorant morons, some of us just took a different approach and have different opinions on what is important.

 

You could probably have a more productive discussion if you didn't insult all who suggested ideas different from yours.

 

Black lotus, you have a decent start but you may want to look into the effects of velocity instead of just basing your damage on caliber, a .221 Fireball and a .224 Weatherby are both .22 caliber bullets but the Weatherby is far more powerful, similarly a .45 ACP and a .44 magnum use very similar bullets but the .44 is nearly twice as powerful, the .44 is slightly smaller but the bullet is longer which gives it a bit more weight. If you have the means to buy it (or perhaps your local library has it) there is an excellent book called Understanding Ballistics, it covers very complex topics but is written for normal people, not rocket scientists. The book includes many topics to help people make an educated choice when picking a hunting rifle or self defence gun, while it is not targeted towards gamers it is an excellent reference for gamers who want a better understanding of how guns work.

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0964559846/qid=1123183200/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-1648782-9064120?v=glance&s=books

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

You seem to feel that it should be obvious, while I have actually provided data to support my position, whether you accept it or not.

 

I've seen no data from you.

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

He has a good point' date=' the fact you don't agree doesn't make it BS, STRMIN includes many things including weight and general awkwardness, why shouldn't it consider body mechanics. [/quote']

 

Because it doesn't.

 

He's point was based upon firing postures, and the primary effect of firing postures is not a matter of any form of strength, but rather increasing fine weapon control- factors that matter with any weapon completely independent of weight, size or recoil. Even the biggest and mightest of men will go to two-handed or prone or other solid firing posture when shooting for best result.

 

In short, his point was like saying "Look, bright lights to the east!, take a -3 to the STR Min".

 

Right... sure... whatever.

 

Btw, neither HERO nor my house rules take firing postures into account correctly. In my case its because it would result in a very non-action movie approach to combat. HERO's reason is unknown to me (I would hope it was the same).

 

You could probably have a more productive discussion if you didn't insult all who suggested ideas different from yours.

 

I wouldn't insult people who kept up with modern research on the subject.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I wouldn't insult people who kept up with modern research on the subject.

 

Fox1 has a point. He can back his claims up with legitimate, verifiable research data, and displays his findings publicly; you've done nothing of the sort. Look, I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when someone researches the subject before forming their opinion, that opinion is superior to unfounded ones unless and until you go and do your own research.

 

Those whose opinions are pulled out of their bum DESERVE to be mocked, in order to motivate them to do real research on the issue. Without solid data to back up your opinion, your arguments carry little weight.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Because it doesn't.

 

He's point was based upon firing postures, and the primary effect of firing postures is not a matter of any form of strength, but rather increasing fine weapon control- factors that matter with any weapon completely independent of weight, size or recoil. Even the biggest and mightest of men will go to two-handed or prone or other solid firing posture when shooting for best result.

 

In short, his point was like saying "Look, bright lights to the east!, take a -3 to the STR Min".

 

Right... sure... whatever.

 

Really, so the fact that there are strmin mods for position, braced / set, 2 hands etc has nothing to do with how strmin is used with weapons, interesting, I guess they were just random thoughts.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Oh sure. Let's take one of the most powerful handgun characters can put there hands on from the official lists' date=' and then run it with some of the most lethal optional rules in the game.[/quote']

 

Let me show you something:

 

People, we can't achieve realism at ALL with bullets in this game. If you shoot someone smack in the head with a crappy .22 pistol in real life, they pretty much die instantly 95% of the time. In the game, even with a x2 BODY Hit Location multiplier, even if you're standing right next to someone, you do maybe 6 - 8 damage (according to the book). Even with a normal mundane person built on 15 character points and 40 Disadvantage points, that'll MAYBE take them down to 0 or -2 BODY. When you take heroes into consideration, especially those with high BODY, you'd have to pump shots into their head 3 - 5 times with a .22 just to take them below - BODY, if they had a totally unarmored head.

 

I'm just trying to show that a .50 Desert Eagle has WAY more stopping power than a .22. In real life, a healthy man can take quite a few .22 bullets to the body and still live; one .50 AE shell is enough to kill someone outright or have them bleed to death very quickly (huge exit wound).

 

In any case, with my house rules, the typical stat 10 normal is toast unless he receives immediate medical aid. Average Damage is 12 BODY with 24 stun meaning he's unconscious with no recoveries. He'll very likely bleed to death shortly thereafter (again, using my house rules on bleeding).

 

 

The rules as written don't do that.

 

They do provide rather poor fixes in an attempt to do that (like the killing attacks does 2x rule, the incap by GM decision rule, etc). All of which fail badly in comparsion to real world. They were basically hand waves by people who didn't understand the subject but wanted a more lethal outcome.

 

My post was in reply to the implied suggestion that .50 handgun in HERO was somehow insufficient at stopping a Char 10 normal.

 

We don't care about more normal weapons, we don't care about how the use of those optional rules will make even the smallest of the rifle class weapons into instant death machines. Nope, we don't care about any of that.

 

How do the current rules make small calibur rifles into instant death machines? Is the average Body of those weapons over 10 Body? Thats the only way of making them "instant death machines" without hitting the head or vitals reliably, which is highly unlikely using the current Hit Location chart. (I do get Vitals hits about 1/10 of the time, but I have no problem with this myself)

 

All we're trying to do is prove a point. Heaven forbid if we actually try to run a fun game instead.

 

Just about everyone I've run games for seem to like them, so I must be doing something right.

 

 

I don't think you've even looked at the suggested changes from my website.

 

I did some time ago when you first posted the link. It wasn't to my taste.

 

If you did, you may be suprised to know that what you're whining about here isn't significantly more possible than it is under HERO.

 

Whining?

 

Look and do some math before you leap.

 

Hmmm...

 

Body 10 Stun 20 normal minus 8 Body and 32 Stun equals 2 Body and -12 Stun.

 

Looks like I did the math to me!

 

Why do you attack me personally? I didn't attack you or anyone else. I merely pointed out that *I* think the Hero rules do a fine job of simulating dramatic reality when it comes to small arms and their effects on people. Its my opinion, I'm entittled to it and I don't deserve to be attacked for it. Neither does anyone else.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Fox1 has a point. He can back his claims up with legitimate, verifiable research data, and displays his findings publicly; you've done nothing of the sort. Look, I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when someone researches the subject before forming their opinion, that opinion is superior to unfounded ones unless and until you go and do your own research.

 

Those whose opinions are pulled out of their bum DESERVE to be mocked, in order to motivate them to do real research on the issue. Without solid data to back up your opinion, your arguments carry little weight.

 

The problem with this is you don't know who has or had not done the research. You don't know who is or is not qualified. Perhaps some of these individuals are more qualified and/or knowledgable, but simply do not wish to flaunt that, merely allowing others their opinions and not attack them for it.

 

(FYI, I've done only a small amount of research on small arms vs people, but thats because I don't have much of a problem with how the game handles it now, so I didn't feel the need to do so. I've done tons of research on larger calibur weapons like Tank guns on up for the express purpose of making vehicles combat more aesthetically pleasing in my games. If I felt the need to add more "realistic" rules for small arms fire to my games, I would heavily research it before doing so. I simply do not feel the need to do so at this time)

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Really' date=' so the fact that there are strmin mods for position, braced / set, 2 hands etc has nothing to do with how strmin is used with weapons, interesting, I guess they were just random thoughts. [/quote']

 

Those modifiers, like many things concerning HERO's firearm rules- are plainly wrong in reference to the subject at hand.