Sleep Spell Design Help

[Outsider]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

The thing is, this is FH, not supers. Physical defences are considerably weaker, so 30 point physical attacks are useful in it. FH mental defences really arent that much worse than in supers though. Most people still just have 'normal' range EGO and no mental defence. But, if one assigns the target numbers the same, the 30 point Mind Control available in FH (as opposed to the 60 point one in supers) is going to be largely worthless. Getting an EGO+0 Mind Control effect is the next best thing to doing nothing with one's phase. EGO+10 is where it starts to get possibly useful, but only if the GM allows EGO+10 to be useful.

 

And "Shoot my ally instead of me" isnt as useful to the mentalist's team in my mind as just popping off a 3d6 EGO Blast with his phase. Maybe if the mentalist is very weak on defence and the ally is very very strong on it, but that would be the sign of a mage who made poor spell learning decisions.

[sbarron]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

Getting an EGO+0 Mind Control effect is the next best thing to doing nothing with one's phase. EGO+10 is where it starts to get possibly useful' date=' but only if the GM allows EGO+10 to be useful.[/quote']You whole premise is based on the idea that a mind control spell should be as effective in combat as an RKA spell. It's not, as you point out, nor should it be, as everyone else has said. That's the point. Getting someone to fall asleep when in combat should be difficult. This spell makes a lot more sense when used before your opponent even knows he might be in combat.

 

Falling asleep when your dozing in-and-out anyway (on boring guard duty) could easily be Ego +0. But telling someone to fall asleep during combat is the same as telling them to jump off a cliff (death is a highly possible result). That should get the Ego +30 setting.

[Outsider]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

If the guard wouldn't mind falling asleep on duty (which could result in severe consequences if hes caught at it) why is he struggling to stay awake? Obviously he doesnt want to fall asleep on duty (ie he is normally against it) so you'd need at least EGO+20 to overcome this...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

Here's my preferred method for handling D&D style Sleep:

 

 

Sleep

Provider Source

Killer Shrike PHB3e

Type SubType Category

Arcane Wizardry Enchantment, Mind-Affecting, Compulsion

RealCost ActiveCost SpellLevel

11 40 2

Spell

Suppress STUN 1 1/2d6, Uncontrolled (+1/2), Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1), Invisible Power Effects, Hide effects of Power (Fully Invisible, Hearing Group; +2 1/2) (40 Active Points); Not vs any creature with 350+ character points (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power, -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Concentration 0 DCV (-1/2), Not vs Elvenkind (-1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4)

 

and here is more of a hypnotic sort of Sleep:

 

Boring Conversationalist

Provider Source

Killer Shrike NEW

Type SubType Category

Arcane Sortilege Conversation, Sleep

RealCost ActiveCost SpellLevel

26 90 5

Description

The Sortiligist can lull a conversation partner into unconsciousness without their realization.

Spell

Drain STUN 2d6, Limited Range (+1/4), Penetrating (+1/2), Lingering up to 1 Minute (+3/4), IPE, Hide effects of Power (Fully Invisible; +2) (90 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1 1/4), Extra Time (Extra Segment, -1/2), Concentration 1/2 DCV (-1/4), Requires A Conversation vs Spell Resistance Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll, RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests -1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

 

 

I like to use Suppress or Drain vs STUN because it is consistent with the normal means of knocking people out -- reducing their STUN below 0. With Suppress you get a gradual lulling effect, and when the Spell ends they get their STUN back and wake up normally.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

You whole premise is based on the idea that a mind control spell should be as effective in combat as an RKA spell. It's not' date=' as you point out, nor should it be, as everyone else has said. That's the point. [/quote']

 

 

And making someone fall asleep with a 30 AP power is a lot more devestating than they typical 2d6 RKA hit. Normally, it takes multiple hits to KO a typical opponent. Mind Control normally hits (targetting ECV) and being asleep makes a head shot for double stun because you're surprised pretty simple.

[Outsider]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

Devastating, maybe, if it works. Odds are that it wont. If the attacker has spend 20 points to buy his EGO up to max, then sure, the Mind Control will probably land... but the target still gets at least one Breakout roll to shrug off the effects of the mind control before it even has a chance to take effect. And i the attacker is only barely establishing EGO+10 (due to the 6d6 nature of his Mind Control) then the target, despite being 'hit' has a 62.5% chance (EGO 10, 11- breakout roll) of being completely unaffected. And if he is unaffected due to having made his initial breakout roll, then he will also be alerted to the presence of the attacker, and to the fact that they tried to Mind Control him. This isnt something that any non-desperate player will be using on a single unalerted target, like a sentry. The odds of failure are just too high.

 

More likely, and in line with the 'sleep spell' idea, it will be bought as an Area of Effect attack, and be thrown at a crowd of enemies, putting about 40% of them down temporarily and leaving 60% of them up... which prevents the coup-de-gras on the next phase. Or at least prevents it from being performed without bypassing active foes. If the enemies are at all intellegent, 2/3rds of the ones not affected will spend a phase waking up the ones who were... and the spell ends up doing nothing more than making 80% of one's foes lose a phase.

 

A 2D6 Killing Attack, on the other hand, will (in the hands of a PC) also almost always hit 'minion class' targets, and will do 7 BODY and 21 STUN before defences on average, meaning probably 3-4 BODY and 10-15 STUN, after defences. And this damage cant be shrugged off with a stat roll 60% of the time. This is enough damage to stun a minion (losing him a phase, and leaving him at 1/2 DCV and *1/2 hit location penalty -very much like being asleep- ) and is half way to putting him out due to negative STUN.

 

10 targets hit by 2D6KAs will take 30-40 BODY and 100-150 stun. If the shots are distributed 2 per target, that will be 5 targets down. 10 targets hit by the 'sleep spell' wil see 6 of them shrugging it off, meaning only 4 targets down. And recovering from the 'sleep' is a lot easier and faster than recovering from the BODY and STUN damage taken from the KAs.

 

 

Now... if you thing it needs a EGO+30 effect to 'sleep' someone... that means 'sleeping' them compares to a 4D6 killing attack. 14 Body and 42 Stun in a blow. One hit from a 4D6 KA will put down most (human) opponents in an FH game, and probably at least impair them, no follow up necessary. And if the target is among the toughest of physical specimens, and is heavily armored, well, it will at least stun them leaving them very vulnerable to an aimed follow up shot (again 4d6 killing!) that will put them out for the long term. The 'sleep' spell, on the other hand, will just barely achieve the effect level required and thus the target will (again) shrug it off 62.5% of the time with his first Breakout roll. Then the attacker will -always- have to spend a second phase putting the target out long term (or killing them) with the follow up. And this is against a target that has only 10 EGO. Against someone who has bought up his EGO (like many a non-minion class character) it wont likely work at all because it just wont achieve the effect level.

[Old Man]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

I now think I would definitely go with a Suppress or Ego Blast or the like just to get around this debate on Mind Control.

[Outsider]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

I now think I would definitely go with a Suppress or Ego Blast or the like just to get around this debate on Mind Control.

 

 

The more I think about it, the worse the Mind Control method looks, even if you allow EGO+10 to 'sleep' someone.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

Well,, if the spell used Mind Control, it could be 6d6 Non-selective Area (it will hit based on ECV, so having to target each person in the area isn't that bad) for the same 52.5 AP being considered for the original spell. The limitatons would be reduced, however, and you'd have to say "go to sleep" or boost AP to have a telepathic command.

 

I suppose you could go with something like

 

Sleep Spell: 2d6 Mind Control, Continuous (+1/2), IPE (both effects and building of effects invisible; +1), Cumulative (+1/2), Telepathic Command (+1/4), 3 doublings of max (max now 96; +3/4) nonselective 4" radius (+3/4) AP 47.5

 

One command ("go to sleep"; -1/2 seems pretty conservative; -1 at most); Magic roll at -5 (-1/2), OAF Fragile Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4), Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1/2), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2)

 

RP 10 (setting one command at -1/2)

It will take some time, so I'd probably pull 3x END, making RP 11 points

 

It affects all targets in an area, is undetectable and once it hits locks in to build up an effect of up to 96 points. You also avoid range modifiers, since you get LOS range. Set the desired effect at "go to sleep with -5 to breakout rolls" and you need 55 points of effect assuming Ego +20 and a 10 Ego. That will take 8 phases on average.

 

Not a combat spell, obviously, but neither was the Suppress or the slow STUN drain. You can put the guards and the prisoner to sleep, since the prisoner won't be damaged afterwards. You can likely get anyone your Ego allows you to hit with a maximum 96 points of effect - even an Ego 30 who violently opposes sleep has a -7 breakout roll (a 9-) at 95 points of effect.

 

If you want a combat spell, a 1 1/2d6 RKA, area effect radius is 50 AP.and 2d6+1 explosive is 52.5 AP. Good luck with that unarmored prisoner in the middle afterwards, though.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

I now think I would definitely go with a Suppress or Ego Blast or the like just to get around this debate on Mind Control.

Yup.

[Wilfred_Death]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

I now think I would definitely go with a Suppress or Ego Blast or the like just to get around this debate on Mind Control.

In past games people taking mentalists were usually out of luck, cos their spells hardly ever worked if they were in the Campaign limits ( say 45 to 60 AP Max )

 

Also once I let in one kind of Mental SPell, Then the worms escape.....

 

Here's my preferred method for handling D&D style Sleep:

Sleep

Provider Source

Killer Shrike PHB3e

Type SubType Category

Arcane Wizardry Enchantment, Mind-Affecting, Compulsion

RealCost ActiveCost SpellLevel

11 40 2

Spell

Suppress STUN 1 1/2d6, Uncontrolled (+1/2), Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1), Invisible Power Effects, Hide effects of Power (Fully Invisible, Hearing Group; +2 1/2) (40 Active Points); Not vs any creature with 350+ character points (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power, -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Concentration 0 DCV (-1/2), Not vs Elvenkind (-1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4)

 

This looks like the way to go I think,

I assume this creates an area where people in it get Sleepier and sleepier, without realising it until they keel over ?

Of course in this setting a 350 pt person is a minor deity......

The Elves will fall asleep just as humans, and will then hunt you down and kill you after.........

I'm not sure if this was supposed to be like D&D sleep, it's just that that system has a ( rather dumb ) sleep spell...

 

I could use the Charges, if it was 'the expendable spell focus', .

 

How do I make it still cost END to cast though,?

 

Do I just work out how much END it costs for the Base Power per phase,

then say : You dump Blah times that END into the spell to make it last?

 

That's the last of my questions : A clarification on How to work out END use for Uncontrolled Powers, and How to make Powers like Regeneration Cost END ?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

for sleep i always use entangle vs ecv

stef

That has been my favored approach of late, but I have found that making the target unaware of the surroundings requires four +10 Adders, which gets awfully expensive. Of course, it is also pretty effective if you play by the standard rules of only allowing Pushing in extremely heroic situations.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

This looks like the way to go I think,

I assume this creates an area where people in it get Sleepier and sleepier, without realising it until they keel over ?

 

Yes.

 

Of course in this setting a 350 pt person is a minor deity......

The Elves will fall asleep just as humans, and will then hunt you down and kill you after.........

I'm not sure if this was supposed to be like D&D sleep, it's just that that system has a ( rather dumb ) sleep spell...

Then just remove those penalties. It is intended as a D&D style Sleep, which didnt affect elves or things over a certain hit die.

 

 

I could use the Charges, if it was 'the expendable spell focus',

That would be double dipping. It's on a charge because the Vancian style Magic System it was created for uses Charges instead of END.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Vancian.shtml

 

How do I make it still cost END to cast though,?

Just remove the Charge. Alternately you can take Costs END on a Power on Charges for an extra Limitation. It's in the rulebook.

 

Do I just work out how much END it costs for the Base Power per phase,

then say : You dump Blah times that END into the spell to make it last?

Unless you alter something, END is Active Points / 10 per Phase for all Powers.

 

That's the last of my questions : A clarification on How to work out END use for Uncontrolled Powers, and How to make Powers like Regeneration Cost END ?

 

With Uncontrolled Powers you allocate X number of END to the Power when you activate it and the Power will function for a number of Phase until there isnt enough END left to fuel it.

 

Regeneration can't cost END; it is a Persistent Power and needs to be Persistent to work correctly, so making it cost END would effectively make it illegal and non functional.