New Cmpaign : Magic Power Help?

[Wilfred_Death]

I am considering starting up a 5th Edition Fantasy Campaign, after much swearing that I'd never GM again.... Just switching over to 5th Edition and will be purchasing 'books' for that as money allows.

 

I Tend to run a game that is like Dark Champions Fantasy, where the PCs are low powered 'Super Heroes' - Just mages and Sword swingers with some minor powers...

 

Without going into too much detail about it in the first place, I'd like some advice on a couple of points about the way I want to make Magic Work in this campaign.

 

1. First off there will be 5 Schools of Magic ( which are basically just different set special effects )

Fire : Wind : Earth : Water : Void ( Spirit )

 

2. All Magic Users Have An END reserve - MANA which they power their spells with.

 

Those 2 are obvious how to deal with and I've done that before....

 

3. All Magic Items normally purchased / found / looted etc ( Unless the PC actually bought with Points ) are "Easy to Suppress" that is say that they only have 1/2 the AP vs Suppress powers.

This will be a Campaign Limitation so I assume it is worth 0 Points?

The purpose of this is so that if a non mage 'buys' scrolls, potions etc, they aren't all that effective vs 'Real Magicians'

 

4. Mages Have discrete spells which they learn as they choose, So one Mages Fireball might be totally different from anothers. I will most likely be not allowing Multi powers of any sort. Also If A PC is for example a 'Fire Mage' then they only have an END / MANA reserve for Fire Spells.

 

5. Mages will be able to ( usually ) use an action to execute a 'Suppress' Power / Maneuver ??? where they burn Mana to Suppress an incoming Spell.

This is to simulate the concept that when mages throw spells at each other, they cast some cancelling spell.

This is the concept I am having the most difficulty with.

I don't want the PC to have to make Any To-Hit Roll for this. Like for default the Suppress works around the Character using it.

And for example a Mage PC in a group of other PCs hit by a 4D6 AoE Fireball should be able to 'Suppress' say 2 Dice of it ( assume he only bought 2 Dice of Suppress ) thus he gets 2D6 of Fireball applied vs his defences and his companions get the full 4D6.

I would really like to be able to implement this idea, but I can see some problems with it. For example bought with reduced endurance cost it could end up being a real pain.

Also would I make it like the default spell all mages learn, so it has to be cast that phase to work, or could it be some sort of 'Mage Maneuver' - "I abort to Suppress", or a Talent - Can Suppress Spells using own Mana.

I maight be an equivalent to Missile deflection just vs Spells. This is the point I am having most trouble with.

 

6. Learning New Spells.

In my past campaigns PCs have been allowed to learn new spells by paying Character Points, sometimes of course this will happen ' on the trail'. I want to limit the 'Advantages' a PC 'knows'. For example: In their Background: A mages Tutor taught them 2D6 AoE FireBall (RKA)....

So 'On the Trail' I can Live with the PC spending points to make their fireball bigger using 'Magic Research' to thus gain a 2D6 + 1 RKA Fireball...

Then Say The PC Finds a 'Grimoire' which conatins the spell - FireBolt - a 1 Pip RKA with Armour Piercing. They Learn this spell, then they can justify "I now know the Armour Piercing Advantage", Later they modify their Fireball to be 2D6 + 1 RKA AoE AP ( and probably go over the campaign limit

) Could I get away with making Knowledge of New Advantages etc a Perk? So for One Point the PC might learn a 'New' Advantage or Power ?

For Example the Above PC goes to a Tutor and (pays in game money to them ) He then spends 1 Pt and now knows the Power - Aid - After some more adventuring ( for character points ) they 'research' their new fire powered Aid Spell. I really want to limit what a PC can Invent unless they have somehow learnt the various 'pieces' of it, However 1 Character Point may be too harsh?

 

6 Scrolls and Potions:

I want these to be one use magical items that the PCs could create if they 'know the right things'. The special effect is the PC casts for instance Fireball into a potion ( in a special way ). This potion can then be used by someone else Once - Independent 1 Non recoverable charge ( triggered ? by breaking the potion bottle )

I don't want all mages to be able to do this, but it could be some sort of learned skill / power / ritual. Especially so that I know How NPCs can do it to be 'magic shop' proprietors..... Whoever Makes the potion would have to 'know' all the powers and advantages etc that go into it, but maybe not have to know a 4 Dice Fire ball to make a 4 Dice Potion Bomb.

Any advice on this would be appreciated.

 

7. Wands / Magical Items etc and How PCs and NPCs make them.

I usually use something along the line of Tranform for this.

To make a Healing Wand some one must know:

The spell 'Transform mundane object into magical Item'

An appropriate Healing Spell, The 'Extra Time for Recovery' advantage

The 'Ritual' for making Items

The number of Dice Of Transform is compared to the Active Points in the Item, so the Item maker with only 1 Dice of Transform ( 15 Points? ) can only make a Wand of 1D6 RKA FireBolts, which crumbles to dust after say 1 Year ( for example )

Then the question is "Where do the Character Points come from, and how much does it cost ?"

 

8 Intelligence and Magic Skill.

As all spells recquire a SKill roll to activate, usually based on INT, players tend to have their PC have a High Int so that they (don't fail their casting roll ) Then they can never play the Super Genius Character they have.

So how is INT only for casting Spells handled ?

 

9 Increased END for Powers that might not even use END?

I'd like to let PCs Have spells that might say take 40 Mana ( End ) to activate ( representing a heroic effort to cast ) ( in the campign 50 Mana is Maximum Human Limit ) but then have reduced or even 0 End / Mana to maintain. And since it has been a while since I ran a campaign I've become unsure about what those advantages and disadvantages cost. It does play well however, a beginner mage might have to take 5 minutes and almost collapse from Mana loss to activate their 'Force Field' but then it takes Zero End to keep it running, whereas The experienced mage merely goes 'Flame On'. I'd like to allow this even for Powers that normally require No End use at all... All Spell casting will have to require the expenditure of some End / Mana ...... ( This also allows the 'I feel a disturbance in the force... ' detection of spell use )

Any pointers?

 

Any help with these ideas would be much appreciated.

[Nolgroth]

Re: New Campaign : Magic Power Help?

 

3. All Magic Items normally purchased / found / looted etc ( Unless the PC actually bought with Points ) are "Easy to Suppress" that is say that they only have 1/2 the AP vs Suppress powers.

This will be a Campaign Limitation so I assume it is worth 0 Points?

The purpose of this is so that if a non mage 'buys' scrolls, potions etc, they aren't all that effective vs 'Real Magicians'

 

Yeah, I would definitely spell this out as a built in campaign limitation. You could, at least hypothetically, say that all magi have to buy difficult to dispel on their powers, but it sounds like you already have the way to do it.

 

4. Mages Have discrete spells which they learn as they choose, So one Mages Fireball might be totally different from anothers. I will most likely be not allowing Multi powers of any sort. Also If A PC is for example a 'Fire Mage' then they only have an END / MANA reserve for Fire Spells.

 

Hmmmn. I might allow a Limitation for restricting the types of magic that can be powered by a END Reserve. Perhaps -1 for only one type, -3/4 for two types, -1/2 for three types. If they can cast anything but one type, I would give it a -1/4. You may have already thought of this.

 

The alternate would be to force a particular magus to buy a pool for each sphere of magic anyway. Or, you could just 0 point campaign rule it, though that would be the last choice I would make in the same situation.

 

5. Mages will be able to ( usually ) use an action to execute a 'Suppress' Power / Maneuver ??? where they burn Mana to Suppress an incoming Spell. This is to simulate the concept that when mages throw spells at each other, they cast some cancelling spell. This is the concept I am having the most difficulty with. I don't want the PC to have to make Any To-Hit Roll for this. Like for default the Suppress works around the Character using it.

 

(snipped example)

 

I would really like to be able to implement this idea, but I can see some problems with it. For example bought with reduced endurance cost it could end up being a real pain.

 

Also would I make it like the default spell all mages learn, so it has to be cast that phase to work, or could it be some sort of 'Mage Maneuver' - "I abort to Suppress", or a Talent - Can Suppress Spells using own Mana.

I maight be an equivalent to Missile deflection just vs Spells. This is the point I am having most trouble with.

 

Hmmn. I can see where that is giving you some problem. Since it affects only the magus and not his companions, why not make it a Damage Reduction vs Magic Affects One at Time (+1/4 I believe). Then you can either build some other Power mods into it to make it like a maneuver or once again, campaign rule it.

 

6. Learning New Spells.

In my past campaigns PCs have been allowed to learn new spells by paying Character Points, sometimes of course this will happen ' on the trail'. I want to limit the 'Advantages' a PC 'knows'. For example: In their Background: A mages Tutor taught them 2D6 AoE FireBall (RKA)....

So 'On the Trail' I can Live with the PC spending points to make their fireball bigger using 'Magic Research' to thus gain a 2D6 + 1 RKA Fireball...

Then Say The PC Finds a 'Grimoire' which conatins the spell - FireBolt - a 1 Pip RKA with Armour Piercing. They Learn this spell, then they can justify "I now know the Armour Piercing Advantage", Later they modify their Fireball to be 2D6 + 1 RKA AoE AP ( and probably go over the campaign limit

) Could I get away with making Knowledge of New Advantages etc a Perk? So for One Point the PC might learn a 'New' Advantage or Power ?

For Example the Above PC goes to a Tutor and (pays in game money to them ) He then spends 1 Pt and now knows the Power - Aid - After some more adventuring ( for character points ) they 'research' their new fire powered Aid Spell. I really want to limit what a PC can Invent unless they have somehow learnt the various 'pieces' of it, However 1 Character Point may be too harsh?

 

The harshness may depend entirely on how much you limit 1 CP worth of learning. If the character goes to a Tutor or pays for some sort of Mentor perk, who in turn teaches them the principle of boosting magic and then they can invent different Aid spells (or even one with a hefty Advantage on it for all magic) then I see no real problem. Only you know how your players are going to react and whether they would take advantage of the situation.

 

6 Scrolls and Potions:

I want these to be one use magical items that the PCs could create if they 'know the right things'. The special effect is the PC casts for instance Fireball into a potion ( in a special way ). This potion can then be used by someone else Once - Independent 1 Non recoverable charge ( triggered ? by breaking the potion bottle )

I don't want all mages to be able to do this, but it could be some sort of learned skill / power / ritual. Especially so that I know How NPCs can do it to be 'magic shop' proprietors..... Whoever Makes the potion would have to 'know' all the powers and advantages etc that go into it, but maybe not have to know a 4 Dice Fire ball to make a 4 Dice Potion Bomb.

Any advice on this would be appreciated.

 

Nifty idea. This could easily fall into one of the principles of magic ideas you were talking about earlier. I would suggest that you take a strong look at the Delayed Effect and Usable By Others Power Advantages. They go a long way to pre-building some limits into this sort of thing. Hmmn. Looking at #7, the previous statemtent also applies.

 

8 Intelligence and Magic Skill.

As all spells recquire a SKill roll to activate, usually based on INT, players tend to have their PC have a High Int so that they (don't fail their casting roll ) Then they can never play the Super Genius Character they have.

So how is INT only for casting Spells handled ?

If you want them to have high casting rolls without high functional INT scores, why not make the skill a General Skill?

 

9 Increased END for Powers that might not even use END?

I'd like to let PCs Have spells that might say take 40 Mana ( End ) to activate ( representing a heroic effort to cast ) ( in the campign 50 Mana is Maximum Human Limit ) but then have reduced or even 0 End / Mana to maintain. And since it has been a while since I ran a campaign I've become unsure about what those advantages and disadvantages cost. It does play well however, a beginner mage might have to take 5 minutes and almost collapse from Mana loss to activate their 'Force Field' but then it takes Zero End to keep it running, whereas The experienced mage merely goes 'Flame On'. I'd like to allow this even for Powers that normally require No End use at all... All Spell casting will have to require the expenditure of some End / Mana ...... ( This also allows the 'I feel a disturbance in the force... ' detection of spell use )

Any pointers?

 

In Fifth Edition, there is a Costs END Only to Activate advantage. This sounds exactly like what you are aiming for. You can also use a variant on Visible called Noisy (I think it was a separate power mod in 4th Ed.) that makes the magic automatically detectable by those with the appropriate sense. Campaign Rule it that anybody who can do magic can sense magic, sort of like Mental Powers.

 

Hope some of that helps.

 

EDIT: And I see this is your first post. Welcome aboard.

[lensman]

Re: New Cmpaign : Magic Power Help?

 

5. Sounds like you need little help. You already know how you want to make it work. The rules easily allow for this.

Consider:

 

 

Suppress 5 pts. 1 d6 Suppress

Constant :

Ranged :

Costs END

 

Add Adv: Reduced END 0;

Limit on Reduced END 0: Costs 1x Mana to Use. or

Costs 3x Mana if Aborted to.

Add Adv: Ucontrolled, really tough version so that it works even if user asleep

/ unconscious or Stuned

Add Limit: No range

 

As to what controls the number of Suppress dice when used, As GM you can link that to an arbitrary number as minus to a Magic roll

Ex: -1 / 3 d6 of Suppress, then let the desperation of the PC choose how much to use

Or, less arbitrarily a GM might link the nuber of dice Suppress to pts. In Magic roll or as many AP in the largest Active point spell known to the PC.

 

Since Suppress is a defensive power you just say that it intercepts automatically any incoming spell(s)

 

As for points either figure the points based on a real power construct or just eyeball the campaign and make an arbitrary number.

If PC’s want to increase this “counterspell†ability let them buy naked power advabntages to the base suppress or make up a schedule.

5 points per 3 d6 Suppress

+5 pts. For AoE

+5 for Ranged

+5 for Damage Shield

or Just give PC’s a choice of increase after Magic roll increases by some interval, like at +3 they add some Adder.

[sbarron]

Re: New Cmpaign : Magic Power Help?

 

As for points either figure the points based on a real power construct or just eyeball the campaign and make an arbitrary number.

I agree with lensman on this. Stat out how the power works in play, and then come up with a price that you think fairly reflects its value to players. For example...

 

Defensive Counterspell

Suppress 1d6, Can Be Aborted To (+1/2) (7 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), No Range (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Real Cost 2pts, END 3

 

Just eye-balling it, I think 2 pts is a little low per die, and 3 END isnt' enough either (I wouldn't want the PCs using this willy nilly), so...

 

Defensive Counterspell

 

A character with this ability can lessen the effect of any incoming attacking spells that will affect the character. This ability cannot be used to help anyone but the caster. The power acts as a suppress, the power of the suppress is determined by the level at which the caster purchases this ability. All mage PCs must by at least 1d6 in Defensive Counterspell.

 

Per 1d6

Cost: 3

END: 4

 

Example: Devin has purchased Defensive Counterspell at the 3d6 Suppress level. This cost him 9 pts for the power, and everytime he uses it he burns 12 END. If Devin is attacked by a spell, he must use his current action or abort to Defensive Counterspell to lessen its effect on him.

 

Season to taste.

 

I think you should also figure out when this suppress can be used, when the PC must announce its use, etc. Can he wait to see if the spell hits him? Must he announce he using it before the attack roll, etc.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: New Cmpaign : Magic Power Help?

 

For the defensive Suppress, I would suggest buying it Area Of Effect (1 Hex) with Personal Immunity, and No Range. Define it as always centering on the caster, and you won't need to make an Attack Roll. I'd also recommend the additional Limitations, Instant (because you only want it to function when the spell user casts it) and "Only Vs. Spells Directed At The Caster," which I would call an additional -1/2 Lim.

[Wilfred_Death]

Re: New Cmpaign : Magic Power Help?

 

Thanks guys, these are great suggestions and should do what I need, I'll have to think them over and fiddle with the points cost.

 

Further to my description of the CounterSpell Effect.

The PC has to know 'Sense' that they are being attacked,

Probably - the CounterSpell will be less effective vs different Elemental Magic Effect.

 

I'm not sure if I should make it an 'action' so whilst 'Counter Spelling' you don't get an attack, or just like some Magical Defence that only protects vs Spells - with the special effects being - 'you cast a CounterSpell that looks like X - partially negating the incoming spell....'

 

It also seems to work out a bit cheaper than I thought

 

I think you should also figure out when this suppress can be used, when the PC must announce its use, etc. Can he wait to see if the spell hits him? Must he announce he using it before the attack roll, etc.

Definitely! PC can not wait till he his hit before using this, and must announce it, Like "I'm going to do a 1/2 move and suppress 2 Dice of spells ( whether or not I get hit or even 'cast at' ) "

Perhaps successful Magic Skill rolls to estimate how many Dice really need to be used..........

 

thanks for the help.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Cmpaign : Magic Power Help?

 

Before you commit to fully to an implementation, I have some advice to tender. However, I don't have time to do it right now; I will try to make time this evening or tomorrow, work & wife permitting .

 

In the meantime I would recommend that you take a stab at writing up a formalized document defining the particulars of the magic system in official detail. This kind of document is very useful when using custom Magic Systems -- it clearly communicates the behavior, restrictions, and expectations of the system and represents a contract between the players and the GM. This comes in handy later if disputes over what the system can or can't do or how it functions arise in play. It is also useful from a design standpoint, since the process of commiting the system formally to paper/file will jog your mind and force you to consider eventualities a higher casual pass doesn't expose.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Cmpaign : Magic Power Help?

 

OK, dont have a ton of time, but here are a few suggestions:

 

First off, you might want to check out my version of Elementalists here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/PackageDeals/elementalPackages.shtml

 

It could be extended to include your 5th element without any issues whatsoever, and it has detailed rules for Item Creation included with it.

 

Also, you might want to check out my document on designing Magic Systems here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/Powers/Magic.shtml

 

 

That aside, to address your specific points:

 

1) You should decide how you want to represent the idea of different 'schools' of Magic. Later comments in your post seem to indicate that you want a Required Skill Roll model, so Im assuming that this behaviour is modeled with Power Skills or Knowledge Skills. You should state this clearly.

 

2) END Reserve: If all spellcasters must have an END Reserve, it seems reasonable that all Spells must cost END at least to cast. There is a Limitation to allow this behavior, so that's not a problem. You should consider how large of an END Reserve and how much REC a character can have on their END Reserve ahead a time and set limits, otherwise the END Reserve is easily scaled in such a way as to make it ineffective as a Control Factor in the majority of cases.

 

3) Not sure why you want to alter the normal behavior vs Suppress (and presumably Dispel) vis a vis Magic Items, or why you would deliberately introduce logical inconsistencys by treating PC created Magic Items differently. That kind of arbitrariness just feels random to me. Regardless, if thats what you want then just declare it as a campaign groundrule.

 

Alternately, you could require that ALL Magic Items must be constructed with some kind of Continuing Charge; Continuing Charges must have a termination condition defined, which you can state is always contact with Magical Suppression or Dispel with Active Points greater than the items. That makes for a pretty effective "off" switch. Using the various sub options in Charges like Fuel, Boostable, and Recoverable you can also model a lot of Magic Item behavior.

 

4) Individualized Spells is a non issue in the HERO System. A Power Construct is a Power Construct is a Power Construct.

 

As far as a "Fire Mage" only having a "Fire Mana Pool", that seems needlessly restrictive, but whatever. If thats what you want then simply state as much as a groundrule. You might even go so far as to tie an END Reserve directly to certain Magic School Skill -- put an RSR: Magic Skill Roll on the REC of the END Reserve. This also curbs in-combat Mana Recovery; the Magic User would only be able to REC out of combat when they can focus their attention on absorbing more mana for a TURN and making a Skill Roll. Very effective Control Factor.

 

 

5) This seems needlesly complex for the effect you are trying to accomplish. Simple and consistent will always work better than complex and inconsistent. Consider just allowing Magic Users to take Damage Reduction vs Magic, perhaps RSR: Magic Skill Roll if you want to make it a reflection of their Magical Skill at "unweaving" effects. If you want this to burn END, then don't put Costs Endurance on it or else it is no longer a Constant Power, unless thats really what you want. Instead either handle it with an Always Occurs Side Effect (Costs END from Mana Pool when used), or just a straightforward Limited Power that simply states a flat effect (like Costs END from Mana Pool equal to AP/10 of the Incoming Attack).

 

Also, you might consider allowing characters to Abort to Dispel and Suppress when it is used Defensively to protect themselves from harm. I consider that to be reasonable based upon the basic rule that character's can always Abort to a Defensive Action. So for example, a Magic User couldnt Abort to Dispel to stop an attack against a teammate, but they could Abort to Dispel an Attack that effects them directly.

 

6) As far as having a sub requirement requiring a character to have a Familiarity with a specific Advantage before applying it to a Spell seems needlessly restrictive to me, but if you did decide to do it, consider keeping it at 1 pt per and treating it similarly to Transport Fams.

 

Alternately, you might consider using Naked Power Advantages instead, and allowing an NPA of this sort to be applied to ALL of a caster's Spells where appropriate (normally NPA's are bought to apply to a single Power). Thus a Magic User that know the "Armor Piercing" ability (or whatever properly non-gamist label you stick on it), has Armor Piercing as an NPA applicable to any appropriate Spell of up to X Active Points.

 

Under that scenario, Magic Users would take their Spells as generic constructs and apply NPA's to them at casting time instead of the more standard complex construction.

 

Ie....instead of a Magic User buying:

 

Fireball 2d6 RKA Explosion, Incant, Gesture, Full Phase, RSR: Fire Skill

Firebolt 2d6 RKA Armor Piercing, Incant, Gesture, Full Phase, RSR: Fire Skill

Firedart 2d6 RKA No Range Penalty, Incant, Gesture, Full Phase, RSR: Fire Skill

 

they would instead buy:

 

Firey Attack 2d6 RKA, Incant, Gesture, Full Phase, RSR: Fire Skill

 

Burst: Explosion on up to 60 Active Points, 1/2 DCV Concentration

Invasive: Armor Piercing on up to 60 Active Points, 1/2 DCV Concentration

Seeking: No Range Penalty on up to 60 Active Points, 1/2 DCV Concentration

 

 

7 & 8) Again, another needless complication. If you want Magic Items to be created via Transform then it takes care of itself. There are already rules for adding abilities to items and people that increase the BODY requirements. If that's the route youre going, just stay consistent with the rules and let them take care of it for you.

 

Independent is entirely inappropriate if you are using Transform to add abilities to items.

 

If you want to limit the power level of items made in this fashion, you might consider putting a limit to the number of rolls of the Transform dice a character can apply to a single attempt, based either on their character points in some fashion (perhaps character points / 50), or a Skill Roll value (perhaps applicable Magic Skill - 10 -- thus a Magic User with a Magic Skill of 15 can roll their Transform dice 5 times and add the result to determine if they got enough effect to add the ability they are attempting to add).

 

As far as such effects only having 1 charge, just mandate that any Power Construct added in this way must have 1 Non Recoverable Charge in place of the Limitations applied to it in it's Spell form. Thus if a character has:

 

Artificing: 1d6 Transform Item into Item with a Spell Charge

 

and puts the following Spell into an Item:

 

Earthy Embrace: Entangle 3d6 3 DEF, Incant, Gesture, Full Phase, x2 END

 

Then as part of the act of investing the Spell into the Item it is turned into:

 

Earthy Embrace: Entangle 3d6 3 DEF, 1 Non Recoverable Charge

 

 

For making Wands and other longer lasting Magic Items simply expand on this basic model. Allow the Charage to be a Fuel Charge or a Continuing Charge, and you are good to go.

 

To make the difference between the two impact the character, just enforce a requirement of some sort. Perhaps change the Artificing ability to something more like:

 

Artificing: 1d6 Transform Item into Item with a Spell Charge, OAF Expendible (Difficult to Acquire)

 

And declare that the OAF Expendible represents rare components that are consumed as part of investing the Item, and that the value of the components must equal the Real Cost of the Spell Charge effect (the version with the Charge applied) times some amount of money. Thus longer lasting versions cost more to make; if enforced this sort of arrangement is an effective "Impact" Control Factor.

 

8) This is a simple fix. Dont define your Magic Skills as Knowledge Skills; instead define them as Power Skills and base them on whatever characteristic makes sense for a type of Magic. Maybe Fire Magic is PRE based, Air Magic is INT based, Earth Magic is BODY based, Water Magic is CON based, and Spirit Magic is EGO based. Ta da, instant flavor.

 

Alternately, just make them General Skills not based on any characteristic.

 

9) I cover Fatigue in depth here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/GeneralSpellRestrictions.shtml#FATIGUE

 

 

Hope some of that helped, and good luck.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: New Cmpaign : Magic Power Help?

 

Killer Shrike is the sage of spellbuilding around here - his advice is well worth heeding.

[UltraRob]

Re: New Cmpaign : Magic Power Help?

 

Indeed, his replies to 6,7 and 8 have just given me great insight into making the Fantasy Hero system really magical. (If you'll pardon the pun.) I didn't start this thread, but thanks Shrike for the pointers!

 

Rob

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Cmpaign : Magic Power Help?

 

Thanx for the kind words, and no problem!

[Wilfred_Death]

Re: New Cmpaign : Magic Power Help?

 

Thanks, I am most grateful for you going to all this effort:

I will check into this, and take your suggestions on board

OK, dont have a ton of time, but here are a few suggestions:

 

First off, you might want to check out my version of Elementalists here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/PackageDeals/elementalPackages.shtml

 

It could be extended to include your 5th element without any issues whatsoever, and it has detailed rules for Item Creation included with it.

 

Also, you might want to check out my document on designing Magic Systems here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/Powers/Magic.shtml

 

Previously ( years back ) we played lots of fantasy games with a similar magic system to this ( what I'm trying to recreate here )

 

I wanted to simplify what we used to do a bit.

So instead of having Powers / Advantages / Limitations applied to a long list of Magic 'Schools' e.g Illusionist, Mage, Elemental Summoner, Dragon Mage etc. I am going to cut it down to 5 'Special Effects'

IE. A Fire Mage always has 'Fire' somewhere in the 'Special Effect'

And you by GM Fiat are just not allowed to create a spell that is defined as 'Shards Of Ice' if you are a Fire Mage. Your Healing Spell is defined as 'Correcting the Flows of Elemental Heat in the Body' etc

 

That aside, to address your specific points:

 

1) You should decide how you want to represent the idea of different 'schools' of Magic. Later comments in your post seem to indicate that you want a Required Skill Roll model, so Im assuming that this behaviour is modeled with Power Skills or Knowledge Skills. You should state this clearly.

This Is a brief Description of the 'House' way Magic Works.....

 

Insert: I probably forgot to say:

All Spells Have RSR - That Elements 'Power' Magic Skill

All Spells are visible to mundanes, and to Magic Sight

To make them totally invisible requires Invisible to both.

 

A: You probably design your character on a spreadsheet...

Magic is everywhere.. It is not totally common mainly due to economic reasons - It usually has to be learned. The maximum power available to Humans, Elves, and other 'mortals' is severely limited.

Each person who can produce magic, is only able to do so because they have tied their 'soul' into one of the 'Elemental' Sources. In previous games this has included : Death Magic, Draconic Magic & etc

 

This 'tying of the Soul' is either undergone as a long Ritual or in Character Background. It is nigh impossible to reverse. Once one becomes for instance a Fire Mage, when they die - it's off to the Elemental Plane Of Fire ( Not reachable in Game ) to be re-cycled into the 'Soul Pool' eventually.

 

Once this is done, and only if it is done the Character / NPC etc mystically gains access to an END Reserve - Their natural Mana Pool. Otherwise they can not access any Mana that flows through them, their Soul is not strengthend enough.

 

At this point ( 5 Character Points For the base 'privelege' ) They have a MANA stat and a MANA REC stat which are based on INT & EGO in excactly the same way END and REC are based on STR and CON

 

The MANA pool has a 'Human' Limit of 50 Points which can be exceeded at double points. The recovery rate is by default the same as Recovery on END

 

The more MANA you have the more you automatically become tied to the 'Plane of choice' and start gaining things like ( For a Fire Mage ) Psych Lim : Will Never use 'Water based Spells'. DF: 'Fire Soul' - Any Mage can tell Instantly you are a Fire Mage if they can observe you ( No 'See magic' neccessary ). DF: 'Fire Soul' ( More points of Man ) - Anyone can tell instantly you are a Fire Mage - that vague suggestion of Flame around you is a giveaway. You usually do not get any negative points for these, they just are part of the campaign.

If the 50 pt Limit is exceeded, then you are no longer Human, although you don't get any immediate Chr powers or such like. By the time you get to 100 pts ( no one ever got close yet ), you have to re-write your Chr as you are now an Elemental subject to the whims of the Elemental realms Powers that be. Things like Summon may actually call - you -

 

Resurrection - ( none of the GMs using this system have used this ( ressurected a PC ) in my memory ) Is much more difficult for those with souls bound to an element than those without

Your plain old Warrior character could at great cost be resurrected by his god, but the Fire mage is gone for good.

 

Multiple Soulled ( 2 Or More 'Special Effect' types ) If it could be justified a CHR can align themselves with more than one type of Element. This would mean buying the Mana Pool Ritual again! No Matter how unfair that may sound the Fire Mana will not work for the Earth spells.

 

Magic Items can be made if one has the correct Skills, Knowledge, Items and the appropriate Transform as an ability ( spell )

Without too much detail, Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transform allow you to build items ranging from those that could be represented by mundane equipment in another setting, up to the unbreakable artifact.

All Items in the campaign world are built using Character Points. These items fall into 2 Divisions:

 

A: Those that are Independent and / or the Player did not have the PC spend actual points on. ( Non Attuned Items )

These are normally bought with Money and are relatively pricey compared to mundane items, they of course can also be looted & etc

 

All these fade away after the base time - default is 512 Days - ( shifted the time chart so 1 level of Extra Time to 'recover' from the Transform gives 1024 days.......... )

- They will be treated usually as Equipment that the 'superhero' has not paid points for -

example would be a 'Healing Potion' with Only Ever One use.

Lightning Wand with 5 Charges left

 

B: Those that the PC actually paid Points For ( Attuned Items )

These are usually very expensive indeed.

b1, Independant - Slightly cheaper for the PC, but can be taken away, broken, lost etc, and will crumble to dust after a certain time period.

Charges if any will require - re-spending some points depending on the type of item.

 

Example is : The Wand we found ( stole ) last adventure that I have had custom recharged for Me, after that mage guy made me do this stupid concentation ritual.......

 

b2, Not Independant - Even though they are OAF or such like the CHR will be able to get the item or an equivalent back without having to repay the CHR points

Example is : MY OIF Elven Chain Mail that never gets dirty, which I love so much I always wear except sleeping, bathing, & other times.

 

A New Idea I wanted to try out and use in this campaign when it gets going, is that all 'Non Attuned' items are 'Easy To Suppress / Easy to Suppress the affect of'

So the Non Mage type who does not know magic ( hasn't got a Mana Pool, doesn't have KS: Magic, Power: Magic Skill etc ) who just killed and looted the local Orc Tribe and then spent the cash on a "Wand Of FireBalls" can easily go and kill some more Orcs with it.

However when he tries to Zap the Wizard ( I spent Points ) guy, he is in trouble because the Wizard Gets Double his Suppress Dice vs this type of item and the FireBalls probably won't hurt him one bit. ( Assuming he bought 2 Dice of suppress )

 

This is partially: part of the feel I want for this campaign, and also to address the case where a non mage aquires money and just kits themeselves out with wands and etc, having spent all their points on HKA , DEF, Money perk

 

2) END Reserve: If all spellcasters must have an END Reserve' date=' it seems reasonable that all Spells must cost END at least to cast. There is a Limitation to allow this behavior, so that's not a problem. You should consider how large of an END Reserve and how much REC a character can have on their END Reserve ahead a time and set limits, otherwise the END Reserve is easily scaled in such a way as to make it ineffective as a Control Factor in the majority of cases.[/quote']

All Spells Cost END / MANA to cast whether or not they are then bought down to 0 END to run. Even if the Power is one that usually costs No END. And unless specific advantages are bought, such as Invisible Power affect including vs Magical Detect, can be 'seen'.

Also 'traces' of Power use remain.. This equates where someone uses 'Tracking' to detect yesterdays swordfight, to the Skilled Mage who can probably tell "Water Magery was used to kill something here yesterday", "Somebody left that-away using 'high heels of speed'"

The house standard has always been that Mana REC and END REC are based on the same time. Perhaps it is the points level we work at, but mages will run out of Mana at about the same rate the Swordsmen do

 

3) Not sure why you want to alter the normal behavior vs Suppress (and presumably Dispel) vis a vis Magic Items' date=' or why you would deliberately introduce logical inconsistencys by treating PC created Magic Items differently. That kind of arbitrariness just feels random to me. Regardless, if thats what you want then just declare it as a campaign groundrule. [/quote']

See above.

I wanted to use Suppress rather than Dispel. The easily available power being one that only affects the PC using it. "The Dispel Broke My Item" kind of thing will be much more rare. I also want the feel that Mages are more 'Magical' because they can cast all these meta-spells - by activating their suppress - if they are attacked with magic. They don't have to know suppress FireBall, Water Spray, Rock Shards etc. They just get this 'cool effect' thingy happening. They make some gestures or whatever and Little Elementals get in the way of that 'Rock Shard' spell.

 

I'm still not sure if this is the best way to do it, but I was more reluctant to use 'Magical Damage Reduction'. As for the arbitary 'Attuned' 'Non Attuned' Items and different suppress effects. That's partially as I tried to explain above and also to do with the In-Game mechanic of making magical Items.

 

I'm thinking of constucting a Power that is available to any Mage with at least 1 Pt in Power: Magic Skill.

 

Suppress any Incoming Spell

Each Level gives D6 of Suppress

Only suppresses Spell effect on User ( the Target ie the Mage using this )

Effects all Spell types

Double Effect if attack is by Non Magic user - ( Does not have their own Mana Pool ) ( "Magical Creatures" Like Undead are considered to have a Pool for this effect )

Costs END - Costs 3 x END ( Mana )

Can Be Aborted to

Takes 1/2 Phase

Must Be 'Visible' - Gesture / Incant etc to Mundanes

Visible to Magical Sight

Doesn't work vs any powers that are Primarily based in an OAF object.

For this purpose a magically sharpened sword that is 'always' magically sharp will not be affected.

A Stave or such like that 'throws' spells for the user much like the 'wand of X' will be affected

Must Be announced: eg I'll make a 1/2 Move and Suppress, I'll Suppress and Attempt to Hit him in the Eye with my Dagger

 

With this power the Mage makes some gestures or whatever and his attunement to his Element reduces some of any incoming magical effect

 

 

Alternately' date=' you could require that ALL Magic Items must be constructed with some kind of Continuing Charge; Continuing Charges must have a termination condition defined, which you can state is always contact with Magical Suppression or Dispel with Active Points greater than the items. That makes for a pretty effective "off" switch. Using the various sub options in Charges like Fuel, Boostable, and Recoverable you can also model a lot of Magic Item behavior.[/quote']

I am reading over and over the new rules now that I have them. I usually only allow charges for 'Non - Attuned' or cheapo Wands.

The Fuel idea sound great for this though. In past games Most PCs who have bought magic Items and paid CPs for them buy something like this:

( I'm not going to look at the cost of advantages at the moment )

Sir Hubert's Crowd Pleaser ( Peasant Disperser )

Based On +1 OCV Finely Crafted Metal Baton 3D6 N Damage

Enchanted as a Major Transform:

+ 3D6 EB - Electrical Elemental Damage

No Range

OAF

Does STUN only ( In our usual games that is a disadvantage 'cos they'll get you later ) - Cause Pain From Inducing a Flow of Electic Fluid into the target.

Costs 4 x END Only to 'Turn The Baton On' ( turns off at will )

Zero END ( MANA ) for the EB Part of any attack made, Usual END for STR

( Uses users MANA to power up )

RSR - Magical Skill Roll to 'Power Up'

Real Weapon

 

This sort of thing costs the earth in campaign money, is only magically useful

to Mid level Mages and above and was designed to not 'hurt people' too much

4) Individualized Spells is a non issue in the HERO System. A Power Construct is a Power Construct is a Power Construct.

 

As far as a "Fire Mage" only having a "Fire Mana Pool", that seems needlessly restrictive, but whatever. If thats what you want then simply state as much as a groundrule. You might even go so far as to tie an END Reserve directly to certain Magic School Skill -- put an RSR: Magic Skill Roll on the REC of the END Reserve. This also curbs in-combat Mana Recovery; the Magic User would only be able to REC out of combat when they can focus their attention on absorbing more mana for a TURN and making a Skill Roll. Very effective Control Factor.

 

5) This seems needlesly complex for the effect you are trying to accomplish. Simple and consistent will always work better than complex and inconsistent. Consider just allowing Magic Users to take Damage Reduction vs Magic, perhaps RSR: Magic Skill Roll if you want to make it a reflection of their Magical Skill at "unweaving" effects. If you want this to burn END, then don't put Costs Endurance on it or else it is no longer a Constant Power, unless thats really what you want. Instead either handle it with an Always Occurs Side Effect (Costs END from Mana Pool when used), or just a straightforward Limited Power that simply states a flat effect (like Costs END from Mana Pool equal to AP/10 of the Incoming Attack).

I'll think about this.

 

Also' date=' you might consider allowing characters to Abort to Dispel and Suppress when it is used Defensively to protect themselves from harm. I consider that to be reasonable based upon the basic rule that character's can always Abort to a Defensive Action. So for example, a Magic User couldnt Abort to Dispel to stop an attack against a teammate, but they could Abort to Dispel an Attack that effects them directly.[/quote']

Yes definitely.

 

6) As far as having a sub requirement requiring a character to have a Familiarity with a specific Advantage before applying it to a Spell seems needlessly restrictive to me, but if you did decide to do it, consider keeping it at 1 pt per and treating it similarly to Transport Fams.

Maybe I'll make it cost 0 Points, but they 'must' 'know' the advantage, when learning new stuff miles from anywhere, creating new spells by experiment.

 

Alternately, you might consider using Naked Power Advantages instead, and allowing an NPA of this sort to be applied to ALL of a caster's Spells where appropriate (normally NPA's are bought to apply to a single Power). Thus a Magic User that know the "Armor Piercing" ability (or whatever properly non-gamist label you stick on it), has Armor Piercing as an NPA applicable to any appropriate Spell of up to X Active Points.

 

Under that scenario, Magic Users would take their Spells as generic constructs and apply NPA's to them at casting time instead of the more standard complex construction.

 

Ie....instead of a Magic User buying:

 

Fireball 2d6 RKA Explosion, Incant, Gesture, Full Phase, RSR: Fire Skill

Firebolt 2d6 RKA Armor Piercing, Incant, Gesture, Full Phase, RSR: Fire Skill

Firedart 2d6 RKA No Range Penalty, Incant, Gesture, Full Phase, RSR: Fire Skill

 

they would instead buy:

 

Firey Attack 2d6 RKA, Incant, Gesture, Full Phase, RSR: Fire Skill

 

Burst: Explosion on up to 60 Active Points, 1/2 DCV Concentration

Invasive: Armor Piercing on up to 60 Active Points, 1/2 DCV Concentration

Seeking: No Range Penalty on up to 60 Active Points, 1/2 DCV Concentration

Good idea. I'm trying to minimize getting too much of "Aw I want a Power Pool - you design it for me - Oh I'm not happy"

 

7 & 8) Again, another needless complication. If you want Magic Items to be created via Transform then it takes care of itself. There are already rules for adding abilities to items and people that increase the BODY requirements. If that's the route youre going, just stay consistent with the rules and let them take care of it for you.

 

Independent is entirely inappropriate if you are using Transform to add abilities to items.

 

If you want to limit the power level of items made in this fashion, you might consider putting a limit to the number of rolls of the Transform dice a character can apply to a single attempt, based either on their character points in some fashion (perhaps character points / 50), or a Skill Roll value (perhaps applicable Magic Skill - 10 -- thus a Magic User with a Magic Skill of 15 can roll their Transform dice 5 times and add the result to determine if they got enough effect to add the ability they are attempting to add).

 

As far as such effects only having 1 charge, just mandate that any Power Construct added in this way must have 1 Non Recoverable Charge in place of the Limitations applied to it in it's Spell form. Thus if a character has:

 

Artificing: 1d6 Transform Item into Item with a Spell Charge

 

and puts the following Spell into an Item:

 

Earthy Embrace: Entangle 3d6 3 DEF, Incant, Gesture, Full Phase, x2 END

 

Then as part of the act of investing the Spell into the Item it is turned into:

 

Earthy Embrace: Entangle 3d6 3 DEF, 1 Non Recoverable Charge

 

 

For making Wands and other longer lasting Magic Items simply expand on this basic model. Allow the Charage to be a Fuel Charge or a Continuing Charge, and you are good to go.

 

To make the difference between the two impact the character, just enforce a requirement of some sort. Perhaps change the Artificing ability to something more like:

 

Artificing: 1d6 Transform Item into Item with a Spell Charge, OAF Expendible (Difficult to Acquire)

 

And declare that the OAF Expendible represents rare components that are consumed as part of investing the Item, and that the value of the components must equal the Real Cost of the Spell Charge effect (the version with the Charge applied) times some amount of money. Thus longer lasting versions cost more to make; if enforced this sort of arrangement is an effective "Impact" Control Factor.

For various reasons and after long philosophical arguments with other GMs, about where do CP's Come from? How much do magical Items Cost? How do NPC's make them? Especially : How does an NPC Know how to Make a 8DC Fire Enchantment on a Wand? How does he Make a Sword of Sharpness that heals you once a day/

How many Points is He based on, He looks like a pushover, why isn't he out there Smiting Monsters?

If it costs Me 12 Real Points to buy this Power ( In the form of Magic Armor or such ), then why didn't it cost the creator 12 Cp? After all he had a few Thousand CP's invested in all the gear in his shop? Where are they coming from?

How does he afford this? Can he make a profit?

etc etc

 

What we decided was:

All Magical Items Cost CP's to construct and these must be paid from somehow by someone, Or else there will never be Magic shops even for cheapo items. The CP's are 'paid' during item construction.

 

If The PC Gains an Item that's permanently theirs they Pay CPs on their sheet.

 

Character Points 'Exist' in the Game World without the 'what level are you?' question - they are considered as a sort of Magical Potential Energy.

 

Character Points can be 'collected' in two ways:

'Bitology' - ( Some other name is better ) - Pcs / NPCs with this knowledge skill are able with appropriate equipment to collect CPs by killing creatures and preserving their parts )

The usual exchange rate is : For Each 20 Pts the ( rare ) Creature is based on you extract 1 Cp from the preserved Bits.

 

'Evil Magic' - Various Drains and Transforms can be used to remove CPs from Sentient beings at about the 1 in 20 rate. This is considered 'Evil' in the deepest sense, the gods hate it as these pts are removed from the Life Pool.

This is human sacrifice at best.

 

Once collected these Bits ( Cps ) are usable as items in the Transform Ritual

 

There are 3 Levels of this Mystery : Cosmetic, Minor and Major

The Dice Of Transform Required must cover the AP in the Powers of the Object

( I think we used Cumulative as an advantage here but I can't find it now )

 

Whoever makes the Item Must : Be capable of Building the Item in the first place or buy one 'ritually constructed' by another Guildsman.

This involves levels in for instance WeaponSmith, KS Weapon, KS Magic ( how it works ). And therefore adds to the Monetary cost as you are paying

for skilled labour.

 

The powers , advantages, and effects that are to go into the item must be actually known by the Creator of the Item.

So For Instance to Make a magical Sword +3 OCV, the creator must Know "+1 OCV" Represented as Having 1 or more 5 Point levels with HKA

 

This same Sword is also be given the following power:

On Command 3 Times a Day, the Owner can call forth Lightning From the Heavens Striking All those in its' path blah blah etc etc

6 D6 EB Lightning Armour Piercing Indirect blah blah

 

The Creator must have spent points to Know:

At least 1 pt of EB with Electrical Effect ( He doesn't even have to know a full D6 )

Armour Piercing - Probably already knows from HKA and Weaponsmith

Indirect - Learnt this when he was a Priest?

Charges Limitation

 

Ok. So now the PC Puts in his order and pays a deposit.

The Bits are gathered, and the object is ritually created ( a 'Prequel' to the Transform ritual )

 

The Transform ritual is begun to imbue the Sword with power. ( This is when you probably want to ba absolutely sure that this guy uses Bitology )

In a Time where the Base Time is a based at least in Days and related to Active Points in the powers imbued, The Transform Spell is cast on the item. The Bits are 'used up'. The Item becomes a Magical Item of The Non Attuned Type, ready for sale.

 

Because this is considered a Major Transform - due to the AP of the Lightning Spell , whereas merely imbuing the +1 OCV would have been Minor, and making it look ' all Shiny ' cosmetic -

The Creator must know Major Transform as a spell with any appropriate advantages.

He However does not have to be the 'Black Mage' in retirement, But he probably is some sort of Master Craftsman.

We have a formula that enables him to make a profit on this item.

The PC probably gets a discount if he brings the 'bits'

 

Also The Item is considered to 'Heal' ie It recovers and then becomes mundane e.g dust. We changed the Base time for the recovery to 512 Days

 

The Transform Spell is bought down to a Lower Real Cost by adding as many disadvantages as possible. However for things like Gesture and Incant throughout, we house rule that Apprentices can maintain these effects.

( Part of the Price is for the hire of skilled assistants )

 

 

Now all that's left is an attunement ritual.................

With this rigmarole, we feel that we 'know where the Character Points come from'. It takes less than 1 day and not too much power to make a Potion, or other item of low effect ( Equivakent to making a Hand Grenade in a modern setting )

 

8) This is a simple fix. Dont define your Magic Skills as Knowledge Skills; instead define them as Power Skills and base them on whatever characteristic makes sense for a type of Magic. Maybe Fire Magic is PRE based, Air Magic is INT based, Earth Magic is BODY based, Water Magic is CON based, and Spirit Magic is EGO based. Ta da, instant flavor.

 

Alternately, just make them General Skills not based on any characteristic.

Yeh, you are right.

To simplify things for this campaign, all magic works off the same stats

However the PC Requires ( if he wants to be competent )

KS: X Magic - I Know about X magic and How it works

'Power' - XX Magic Skill - When I manipulate Magic I use this skill

KS: General Spellcraft - That Looks like a Fireball's gestures to me - I will Dive for cover

 

One more thing to mention is : one of the commonest powers is:

See Magic : An addition to the Sight Sense that allows the user to See magical affects , mana use etc and combined with KS: Magic the user can examine a Magic Sword for instance and go "Oooh Powerful" - No Roll

"A Ha! it casts a Blasty Spell" - Makes roll etc

 

9) I cover Fatigue in depth here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/GeneralSpellRestrictions.shtml#FATIGUE

 

 

Hope some of that helped, and good luck.

Once again thanks.