RavensPath Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 I am currently running a new campaign using D&D rules. (Ducking thrown dice.) The game is set in the Forgotten Realms setting which I do like, but that isn't the point. The reason I started the game with that system is that most of the players knew it and were willing to play it. Now that we are a few sessions in I am getting more and more discouraged with the system and would like to switch them over to either a FR conversion to Fantasy Hero or to play in my home grown world, Five Realms. A couple of players are okay with it, but the others are hesitant (they are the hard core d20's who own many of the books.) I am looking for advice to get them off d20 and onto HERO. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy_The_Ruthles Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 explain to them the few "sublte nuances" that are fixed by switching systems... like 1) the ability to jump off a mountain at high lvls and not die 2) Dire Elephants being master climbers 3) the "ferral template" 4) anthropomorphic squid men Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitz Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 Bah, luxury.... I wish I only had D&D to deal with. Both games I'm currently playing in are in systems I really dislike -- WHFRP v.1 for one, and Runequest II for the other. They might have been a refreshing burst of flavour in the day, but both of them are really showing their wrinkles now. I know that both of them have their own loyal followers, but I'm not one of them. I'm going to have to restart my own Fantasy Hero campaign in self-defence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamerz123 Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 This might or might not work. I'm not very familiar with all of the 'fixes' that 3.5 implemented, but I know that in 3.0... Deploy NPC opponents with maxed out Attacks of Opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teh bunneh Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 Now that we are a few sessions in I am getting more and more discouraged with the system and would like to switch them over to either a FR conversion to Fantasy Hero or to play in my home grown world, Five Realms. A couple of players are okay with it, but the others are hesitant (they are the hard core d20's who own many of the books.) I am looking for advice to get them off d20 and onto HERO. Any suggestions? I was in a situation not so different from yours a couple of years ago. We had been playing D&D3.0 for several months, and I was growing more and more frustrated. I sat my group down one day and explained my frustrations, and was happy when most of them told me that they were having many of the same frustrations I was. We switched over and haven't looked back once. My advice: Come up with a list of specific things that d20 can't do that you really want to do. For instance, my group was frustrated that they couldn't increase skills between game sessions, even if they logically should. You don't get new Skill Points until you level, and if you aren't levelling frequently, you can't increase your skills (this came up when the heroes spent some six months' time in a foreign country, but couldn't learn the local language until they gained a level). We were also frustrated that when you did gain a level, what you could do with your points was prescribed for you. The Fighter went up a level and gained more combat expertise. But he had spent the last six months helping the wizard research dusty tomes and helping the local farmers with simple chores, not fighting monsters. He wanted to put points towards Lore skills and Craft skills, but couldn't (or if he did, his points would be worth less). Also, offer to help everyone make their characters. That's where a lot of the Hero-phobia comes from. Ask them, "What are the sorts of things you wanted Lorthar the Fighter to be able to do, but couldn't? Did you want him to be an expert linguist? Have a beautiful singing voice? Maybe he knows one single, simple spell?" Let their imaginations run wild -- a wizard who's really brawny but not that smart; the son of a blacksmith with mythical strength but no real combat experience; a master warrior who is completely blind; a regal knight who also just happens to be the kingdom's greatest locksmith... Above all, don't play up d20's weaknesses. That'll just make your d20-loving players get defensive. Don't tell them, "This game sucks, let's play a different one." Tell them, "I've got a great idea for a new direction we can take the campaign in!" Let them know your frustrations (they may share some of them), but above all, get them excited about a change! Hope this helps, and best of luck! Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 Follow the bunny's advice. And if that doesn't work, electroshock therapy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 This might be heresy but one thing would be to perhaps ummm Give the players free skill points when the characters deserve them to be spent on skills the character's might have learned. Give them languages. Give them real rewards for roleplaying besides gear and magic. Let the plot and the story dictate the characters not the rules. You know chuk the system when the system is not working? So what if you can't play the PC in a tournament. Not like that is such a big deal anyway. D&D is a good game. There are little things I would do better, but on the whole it is solid. Hawksmoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 How to get them off crack This has been covered in quite a bit of detail before. Here are some linkies. [thread=19352] Bringing new players to HERO System[/thread] [thread=12682] It's Hard to get d20 junkies to try HERO System [/thread] [thread=14336] Hero System vs. d20[/thread] Personally, I take offense to the comment that D&D is 'solid'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teh bunneh Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 Give the players free skill points when the characters deserve them to be spent on skills the character's might have learned. Give them languages. Give them real rewards for roleplaying besides gear and magic. Let the plot and the story dictate the characters not the rules. You know chuk the system when the system is not working? So what if you can't play the PC in a tournament. Not like that is such a big deal anyway. I'm not much of a "chuck the system" kinda guy. If I wanted to play systemless, I'd be doing Fudge or something rather than Hero or D&D. But you're right -- I could've let the characters spend XPs as they got them to buy up their skills and stats, and let them buy the skills they wanted to (and that made sense for their situation), and given them rewards for RPing instead of killing monsters, and... Hey, wait a minute! I did do all those things -- just by switching to Hero! Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 In addition to the excellent advice above, there's always HERO System Sidekick. $10.00 US for the bound book or $7.00 for a PDF, and they'll have all the system rules they're likely to need to play (you can show them the more sophisticated stuff if they're interested in exploring other options later), in a compact, easily-understood format. If you decide you want to convert all your existing Forgotten Realms material to HERO System, you're in luck. If you go here and scroll down to the DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS listing, you'll find a tremendous amount of the work done for you, especially for the FR setting. In fact it might help your sales job if you can present your players with HERO translations of their characters, ready to roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethosos Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 But if your group is being really recalirant... Unearthed Arcana can help you find a middle ground. It's a book designed to actually break the system, believe it or not. In it lies all sorts of optional rules--primarly D&D geared, but there are some that echos HERO if you know what you're looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavensPath Posted June 28, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 Thank you one and all for your advice. I will take a look at those other threads and make a list like Bunny suggested. A few are really excited about moving, the others I don't know yet. Once again Herophiles are the best! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavensPath Posted July 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 It worked! They agreed to switch to Fantasy HERO! Yeah. And we are going to play in my home grown world. Thanks for all the advice!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy_The_Ruthles Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 yay! chalk up a win for the good guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teh bunneh Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 Congrats, Ravenspath! Hope y'all have a great game! "I made the switch, and I haven't looked back since!" Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 I'm not much of a "chuck the system" kinda guy. If I wanted to play systemless, I'd be doing Fudge or something rather than Hero or D&D. But you're right -- I could've let the characters spend XPs as they got them to buy up their skills and stats, and let them buy the skills they wanted to (and that made sense for their situation), and given them rewards for RPing instead of killing monsters, and... Hey, wait a minute! I did do all those things -- just by switching to Hero! Bill. To each his own. For me chucking the system was uping the Skill allotments for Wizards, Clerics and Fighters to 4 +INT, granting 15 free "universal" skill points at creation, and allowing skill points to be purchased with xp. starting at 300 XP and increasing by the XP-multiple for each level after that. Thus 20th level extra skill points cost more than 5th level extra skill points. HERO is just too generic for my tastes in fantasy. I have system favorites for each genre and HERO is not the game I would choose to portray Duke Tyrus the Lord of Reptar's Hold (17th level Half Orc 7th level Fighter/5 Barbarian/6 Ranger/ 1 Divine Champion (Meiliki). Hawksmoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyxclaw Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 unfortunately I would have to agree with that...although I do not like DnD either because I can't make most of the fantasy chracters I have in it, it does have it's place. There aren't templates for non mainstream beasties. I have a lot of trouble creating the powers and abilities of some of my creatures even in hero system without a huge number of links/triggers/multiple multipowers etc. For most of them I'm not even going to bother. I think after the one power that took almost an entire MSword page to write up and actually only cost the 2300 point critter 50 points I decided for most of the more cinematic and circumstantial abilities fudging, even in hero system, is a necisary thing. Also hawksmore, I like these home rules. It was very hard for me to make my barbarian halfdragon fighter a good singer and dancer (which was becisary for concept). I wouldn't have been able to do it without a huge penalty except for the "dragon paragon" racial levels, which allow you to take skills that your dragon type should without penalty for crossclassing, but only of course with the points you get from pragon. It was also in unearthed arcana I think... Thank goodness silvers can take skills in perform! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Screw the rogue...again. To each his own. For me chucking the system was uping the Skill allotments for Wizards' date=' Clerics and Fighters to 4 +INT, granting 15 free "universal" skill points at creation, and allowing skill points to be purchased with xp. starting at 300 XP and increasing by the XP-multiple for each level after that.[/quote'] In my humble opinion that just rapes Rogues. If your group does not normally have a Rogue, I guess it is no big deal. Again, just more opinion, but skills in D&D seem like a weak attempt at D&D to be more like Hero. It falls terribly short by once again type-casting characters (class skills). Classes are only good for quick, mindless character creation. As soon as someone wants something more robust, classes start to break down. The fact that so many people create their own Classes and Prestige Classes is proof to me that they want something more robust. Maybe not everyone, but a large group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Squirrel Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 I am looking for advice to get them off d20 and onto HERO. Any suggestions? Electroshock therapy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSgeekHero Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 Follow the bunny's advice. And if that doesn't work, electroshock therapy. sigged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aylwin13 Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 I am looking for advice to get them off d20 and onto HERO. Any suggestions? Electroshock therapy. Or a club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadow_walker Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 Bah' date=' luxury.... I [b']wish[/b] I only had D&D to deal with. Both games I'm currently playing in are in systems I really dislike -- WHFRP v.1 for one, and Runequest II for the other. They might have been a refreshing burst of flavour in the day, but both of them are really showing their wrinkles now. I know that both of them have their own loyal followers, but I'm not one of them. I'm going to have to restart my own Fantasy Hero campaign in self-defence. I'm sorry to here you have to play in WHFRP v.1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitz Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 I'm sorry to here you have to play in WHFRP v.1. It's a tragedy alright At least it's only the system that sucks like a souped-up vacuum cleaner; the campaign itself is really fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 Sounds like you need to Warhammer with Hero rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkeown Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Re: How to get them off d20 I (almost literally) said "I quit" and they followed along. It was fairly easy. Some of my players are hard core HEROphiles, so it made the transistion less noisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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