Special Powers in Power Frameworks

[Guest bblackmoor]

While re-writing Nightveil, I made the following discovery. It's actually something I used to know, but had forgotten about. Namely, that you are not normally supposed to put Special Powers into Power Frameworks (Elemental Controls, Multipowers, and Power Pools): if you do, it requires GM permission.

 

I think I am going to start enforcing this when I run: a character needs a good reason to have a Special Power in a Power Framework. I'm a reasonable guy, so I don't expect this to actually cause much of a problem. Actually, I expect it to affect me more than anyone else, since I'm the one who loves characters with huge Multipowers. I'll be reviewing my own characters with this in mind.

 

For your reference, here are the Special Powers:

 

Duplication

Endurance Reserve

Enhanced Senses

Extra Limbs

Find Weakness

Flash Defense

Knockback Resistance

Lack Of Weakness

Luck

Mental Defense

Power Defense

Skills

 

To give you an example, Nightveil does have an Enhanced Sense in her Power Pool: Detect Magic. I think that's reasonable. However, she won't be buying Sonar, Radar, Tracking Scent, or stuff like that. Similarly, while she won't be buying Mental Defense or Power Defense in her Power Pool, she can use Force Field to provide those defenses, which is permitted, probably because it costs Endurance and it's not persistent when it's purchased that way.

 

So, this has me wondering: how many people actually comply with this restriction when creating your own characters? For the people who act as the GM from time to time, do you ever point out this restriction to the other players, and if so, how often does it come up?

[Maccabe]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

I never have used any of these powers in any power framework. I also

put limits on how many powers you can have in an Elemental Control and/or Multipower. They are too easily abused otherwise.

So far I have not had much trouble with players adjusting to this "house rule". The NPC's I create for my own games follow these rules also.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

I once put a skill in my VPP (lockpicking) to represent a character with a "venom" like symbiot who could stick it in a lock and make the proper key with it. Other than that, always done it the right way.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

I must admit to breaking this one occaisionally. It is usually with pretty Limited versions of the Powers, though. High End Cost for the defenses, for example. I'll break it quite frequently for spells in a fantasy setting, where I use VPPs most of the time. I sometimes even make a spell out of a Multipower, which I then put into the VPP. Like I said, though: highly Limited, and often under pretty tight GM control.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

I once put a skill in my VPP (lockpicking) to represent a character with a "venom" like symbiot who could stick it in a lock and make the proper key with it. Other than that' date=' always done it the right way.[/quote']

 

I remember that, stupid being shakled to the wall the first big fight of our campaign...grumble.

 

Zekari is a sad sad dragon, look all the orksies go crunch without her.

 

I've worked a lot with multipowers, but haven't put any of those things in them. Like for Zekari, my ligtning dragon. She has two. Her electrical powers (lightning bolt, damageshield, etc), and her dragonic attacks (you know teeth claws and what not).

 

You might be able to swing a defenses multipower or power framework...

I wouldn't suggest a multipower though, else they wont all be active at the same time. That's te other problem with frameworks.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

The only time I've ever stretched this particular rule is when building speedster powers.

 

5u 1) Quickness I: Danger Sense (immediate vicinity, out of combat, Function as a Sense); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) 15- plus +3 Overall; Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4)

 

Alone, this is a pretty powerfull combination for a 60 active point Multipower but it is best measured against the other more traditional or direct combat slots (actual movement and attack/defense powers) that it's use otherwise denies. How many combat related levels I would allow to be bought this way would depend largely on how much damage potential the character has when using it.

 

HM

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

I break it for my Ultra-Boy type character. He has Enhanced Senses in an Ultra Slot. I could find a case for several of these, though some like END reserve I feel should never be in one.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

From memory, I've put Duplication, various Enhanced Senses, Extra Limbs, Flash Defense, Knockback Resistance, and Skills in Power Frameworks beore.

 

Several of them were things that my Metamorph could grow with his vast shapechanging skill. And I often see skills and enhanced senses put in power frameworks for gadgeteer type characters.

 

It's kind of odd that you can't put Mental, Power or Flash defense in a power framework, but you CAN put a Persistant Force Field with any or all of those defenses in said framework...?

[Southern Cross]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

Agreed.I also find it ludicrous that Enhanced Senses are not permitted in Power Frameworks,as Enhanced Senses are not Persistent.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

So' date=' this has me wondering: how many people actually comply with this restriction when creating your own characters? For the people who act as the GM from time to time, do you ever point out this restriction to the other players, and if so, how often does it come up?[/quote']

 

We ignore it as a special restriction. *Everything* on a character requires GM permission. If the GM's OK with it, who cares? As a GM, I'd be much more likely to veto abusive but "legal" powers than I would reasonable, "illegal" ones.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

In general I think these Powers should probably not be placed in Frameworks. Contingent on the sfx of both the Power and the Framework, I might allow it on a case by case basis.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

Namely, that you are not normally supposed to put Special Powers into Power Frameworks (Elemental Controls, Multipowers, and Power Pools): if you do, it requires GM permission.

 

I think I am going to start enforcing this when I run: a character needs a good reason to have a Special Power in a Power Framework.

 

Everything requires GM permission, so I interpret "only with GM permission" comments in the rules as meaning "We don't have space for a caution/stop sign, but this is something you should look at carefully". M

 

I do, however, expect a rationale for powers in frameworks to begin with.

 

For your reference, here are the Special Powers:

 

Duplication

Endurance Reserve

Extra Limbs

Find Weakness

Luck

Skills

 

These are pretty tough to support in a framework, although I can certainly think of exceptions for most.

 

Enhanced Senses

Flash Defense

Knockback Resistance

Lack Of Weakness

Mental Defense

Power Defense

 

These are a little easier to support as part of a framework conceptually, in my view. I can see where defenses could get overpowered ("A light character? Reallocate my Defense Multipower to Flash Defense.") Then again, I can have a Multi of PD and ED, since Characteristics aren't on the Special Powers list (or did they get missed?). I could also have a Multi of extra PD or ED, or damage resistance. Mind you, I'd be interested to see the concept justifying it.

 

Which is one reason I'm pretty lenient on the "special powers" (and no END powers in an EC). I'd rather assess each construct on its own merits. If I set a hard and fast "no specials in a framework", or even pressured these significantly more than other powers, I'd probably have to accept "They aren't special powers" as justifying anything else. I think that's one reason why most of us (including yourself, if I read you right, BB) don't ban these, but just look at them for "fit" with the framework, and might allow a Special Power to stay in while banning a power which isn't "special".

 

Some odd notes:

 

- Duplication on the list; Summon not. I can Summon loyal creatures very similar to myself, but not create duplicates.

 

- Multiform not on the list - I can shift form into something wi9th any of these powers.

 

- You touched on the Force Field for unusual defenses issue. Can you buy Flash DEF armor? A Multi of Force Fields (PD, ED, Flash Def, PowDef,Mental Defense, maybe LoW) would be about as abusive as a multi of the raw defenses, wouldn't it?

 

As far as VPP goes, I like to see a detailed writeup (almost power by power) of what can and can't be done in a given VPP. This also assits in determining the level of any "restructed choices" limitation.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

I also find it ludicrous that Enhanced Senses are not permitted in Power Frameworks...

 

That's probably to prevent characters from a having a Multipower with every possible sense, which is clearly abusive, yet extremely attractive.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

In general I think these Powers should probably not be placed in Frameworks. Contingent on the sfx of both the Power and the Framework' date=' I might allow it on a case by case basis.[/quote']

 

That's essentially how I'm suggesting that my group run it.

[Markdoc]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

Actually as a GM I've allowed many of these powers into frameworks, and also used a few of them in framorks for my own characters. As noted by several other people, my criteria is "does this fit?" and "Is it unbalancing for the game?". I do tend to be resonably strict about framworks, though preferring them to be restricted to a very well-defined rationale. I rather have a well thought out framework with severl GM's permission powers than cheesy frameworks with standard powers simply defined by a very loosely-attached special effects.

 

cheers, Mark

[zornwil]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

I pay it no mind, basically, except for looking for of course real problems, and some of these are easy to see as problematic (Duplication's a good one). Still, I don't really pay attention to the list as such or the rule as such, I just review the character sheet. I'm with Markdoc, basically, who stated it quite well just above.

[CourtFool]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

When I first started playing Hero (4th Edition) I thought Power Frameworks were extremely broad. I thought 'Mutant' was a good enough excuse for a Power Framework. I can not tell you how many characters I built with all of their Characteristics in a Elemental Control. Because of this, I did not understand why special powers required special permission to be allowed.

 

I have since tightened my scope on Power Frameworks, however, it sounds like I am still far too broad compared to many others here on the board. It does make me wonder if this just gives an 'unfair' advantage to people who are a little more creative in skirting the rules. You may not allow a 'Mutant' to put Armor, Energy Blast and Flight in a Multipower but you would let 'Powered Armor Guy'.

 

I think this has been covered in other threads, so I will stop now.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

As I'm new to the rules and still need to do a thorough review of the Power Frameworks section, I find this all quite confusing. Aside from the simple bits, such as "That's probably to prevent characters from a having a Multipower with every possible sense, which is clearly abusive, yet extremely attractive."

 

I'm just glad that I am mainly a science fiction/ post-apocalypse kind of guy. If I were planning on running supers anytime soon... whew.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

I've allowed virtually every power on the list in a framework at one point in time or another. Duplication and Luck are the two that require the most justification from me.

 

Heck, my longest running character, Blackjack, was a gadgeteer that had MOST of those restricted powers in his gadget pool at one point or another. Once again excepting Duplication and Luck. (Actually, I toyed with the idea of a clone tank using duplication, but in the end decided that the rubbeer science quotient was getting to large and backed off.)

 

I tend to be very liberal with what I allow as long as its well justified and not abusive. I'm even inclined to often allow frameworks INSIDE of frameworks if it plays well (guns with multiple functions in a gadget pool, for instance).

[zornwil]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

I've allowed virtually every power on the list in a framework at one point in time or another. Duplication and Luck are the two that require the most justification from me.

 

Heck, my longest running character, Blackjack, was a gadgeteer that had MOST of those restricted powers in his gadget pool at one point or another. Once again excepting Duplication and Luck. (Actually, I toyed with the idea of a clone tank using duplication, but in the end decided that the rubbeer science quotient was getting to large and backed off.)

 

I tend to be very liberal with what I allow as long as its well justified and not abusive. I'm even inclined to often allow frameworks INSIDE of frameworks if it plays well (guns with multiple functions in a gadget pool, for instance).

Re Luck...what if it's a Luck Framework?

 

(I've seen it, I'd allow it...)

[CourtFool]

Surely Luck can go in a Luck Framework

 

Re Luck...what if it's a Luck Framework?

 

I was wondering that too. Scarlet Witch anyone?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

Re Luck...what if it's a Luck Framework?

 

(I've seen it, I'd allow it...)

that's justification enough for me.

 

Heck..I'll usually allow both duplication and luck to be used in a magic pool, depending on the constructs involved. I'm pretty easy most of the time.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

I believe that may be one of the reasons why spell casting PC's always get an eyebrow raise from me and the GM.

 

Nothing worse then telling a mutant or alien PC that he can't have a certain power construct due to the defined SFX of his character and then having some magic based player ask for the exact same thing. Then if you say no they often cop the attitude of "Dude, it's magic! Magic can do ANYTHING!"

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

I believe that may be one of the reasons why spell casting PC's always get an eyebrow raise from me and the GM.

 

Nothing worse then telling a mutant or alien PC that he can't have a certain power construct due to the defined SFX of his character and then having some magic based player ask for the exact same thing. Then if you say no they often cop the attitude of "Dude, it's magic! Magic can do ANYTHING!"

 

Nahh... I'd let Rogue have either one in her mutant Mimic pool too, assuming she found someone to mimic with the appropraite power. I know shes done Luck (A lot back when Longshot was on the team), and I think shes done duplication (Maddox the multiple man, IIRC)

 

It all depends on the justification.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Special Powers in Power Frameworks

 

I believe that may be one of the reasons why spell casting PC's always get an eyebrow raise from me and the GM.

 

Nothing worse then telling a mutant or alien PC that he can't have a certain power construct due to the defined SFX of his character and then having some magic based player ask for the exact same thing. Then if you say no they often cop the attitude of "Dude, it's magic! Magic can do ANYTHING!"

 

That's one of the reasons I feel a GM should put together either spell lists of his own design -- with the Frameworks in which they may be inserted -- or at the very least, defined "schools" of magic with set SFX descriptions. You can allow a little freedom within that, but if you just let people take Powers with "Magic" SFX without a pre-designed system, you can run into these little problems.