Is this ok for a classic Backstab?

[roch]

Based on another post from this forum:

 

Backstab +1d6 HKA, can only be used against unsuspecting foe (-1), requires a killing weapon of opportunity ( ½), No STR Bonus (-½); 15 Active Points, 5 Real Points

 

A character can double the base weapon HKA as normal with STR etc., but the Backstab damage is added on afterwards and can't be augmented.

 

Does this sound reasonable?

 

Thanks,

 

(_8(0)

[MitchellS]

Re: Is this ok for a classic Backstab?

 

I don't think you should get the "no str bonus" limitation as this attack is adding to an attack which does allow str bonuses. If it were a stand-alone attack then it would be ok, or if the attacks were addes separately, but this attack is just more damage to some other attack.

[roch]

Re: Is this ok for a classic Backstab?

 

Ah, I thought that because I was saying that you couldn't add STR to increase the damage from the backstab - that the backstab portion of the attack is just a flat add-on to the underlying weapon attack - that the "no STR bonus" was reasonable.

 

For example, if I created an effect which was "+1d6 HKA, cost 4x END" or something like that, I would expect the 4x END only to be applied to the +1d6 from this effect, not to the underlying attack too...

 

Basically I thought applying a limitation to a "+xyz" attack meant the limitation only applied to the + bit, not the whole thing. Is that bogus?

 

Thanks for the advice,

 

(_8(0)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Is this ok for a classic Backstab?

 

Why not just use the Sneak Attack version of Deadly Blow, from Fantasy HERO?

 

 

I also cover some other methods of doing sneak attack here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/Class3e/rogues.shtml

[MitchellS]

Re: Is this ok for a classic Backstab?

 

Ah, I thought that because I was saying that you couldn't add STR to increase the damage from the backstab - that the backstab portion of the attack is just a flat add-on to the underlying weapon attack - that the "no STR bonus" was reasonable.

 

For example, if I created an effect which was "+1d6 HKA, cost 4x END" or something like that, I would expect the 4x END only to be applied to the +1d6 from this effect, not to the underlying attack too...

 

Basically I thought applying a limitation to a "+xyz" attack meant the limitation only applied to the + bit, not the whole thing. Is that bogus?

 

Thanks for the advice,

 

(_8(0)

Your problem here is that you're not creating a separate 1d6 attack, you're creating an attack that is adding to a base attack. 1d6 sword +1d6 for backstabs. You don't get any strength bonuses for the +1d6 because it's not its own attack. Without the 1d6 sword the extra +1d6 is useless so you must be governed buy the base attack.

 

As Killershrike states, I'd probably use Deadly Blow myself for this.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is this ok for a classic Backstab?

 

Am I the only one here who thinks Deadly Blow or any variation thereof is just a redundant attempt to copy one portion of the meta-rules from D&D over to HERO when a perfectly good optional rule already exists within HERO to handle backstabs: Hit Locations?

 

The rules already state that "Attacks from behind" are functionaly equivalent to a "Suprise" manuever (5ER page 373).

Attacked from behind out of combat (1/2 DCV) (1/2 Hit Locations)

Attacked from behind in combat (1/2 DCV) (normal Hit Locations)

further down in same chart...

Suprised (out of combat) (1/2 DCV) (1/2 Hit Locations)

Suprised (in combat) (1/2 DCV) (normal Hit locations)

Say we are using the above rules to attack a character with a 23 DEX (8 DCV) from suprise/behind. The target is automatically reduced to a 4 DCV regardless of whether this occurs in/out of combat. Since you already have a better than average chance to hit you might as well use targeting. You already get a +4 bonus to DCV vs. the -8 vs. a specific location but the payoff is well worth it (up to x2 body and stun damage). If you want to only be good at targeting when making attacks from suprise/behind just buy a few Penalty skill levels (3 points each) with that limitation (-1/2) which works out to 2 points/level.

 

If the campaign setting does not use Hit locations then you probably need to use the already mentioned Deadly Blow or possibly a Limited Find Weakness. However, major problems can occur if you combine these options.

 

Deadly blow is almost a 1 to 1 translation of the classic D&D Backstab it does damage on a scale appropriate for a Hit Point based damage system and therefore is a difficult fit at best for HERO's Def/Body/Stun damage system. Hit Locations are a little bit more difficult to use but they do not require any extra points to be spent for anyone to have at least a chance of success when using them.

 

HM

[Markdoc]

Re: Is this ok for a classic Backstab?

 

Am I the only one here who thinks Deadly Blow or any variation thereof is just a redundant attempt to copy one portion of the meta-rules from D&D over to HERO when a perfectly good optional rule already exists within HERO to handle backstabs: Hit Locations?

 

With one caveat, the addition that there are different way to handle the problem (as you noted - find weakness, levels, etc. I agree.

 

The caveat is that there are simply times when a player wants to consistently do more damage, and I have no problem with them buying a limited HKA/RKA to reflect that.

 

But I have a big problem with deadly blow, which as you note, was a clumsy and badly thought-out to simply graft a D and D metarule onto Hero system. I never permit it in my games.

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Is this ok for a classic Backstab?

 

And thats the beauty of the system -- options. Personally I find Deadly Blow to be very useful, and not only use it but encourage it in my games.

 

I do however put caps on it. And I also have some adjudications regarding Deadly Blow's affect on Knockback and Inanimate Objects. This is detailed here:

 

Deadly Blow caps

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Is this ok for a classic Backstab?

 

I support two versions of "Backstab". One is using a Deadly Blow type construct (which I have been using since the 4th edition days. I've been doing "Deadly Blow" type Talents in Hero for years) and one is added Skill Levels which only increase the chance for a Critical Hit (I use the Critical Hit optional rules in my heroic level games)

 

To activate these skills, I used Requires Skill Roll: Stealth (-1/2), which simulates the character needing to sneak up behind his opponent undetected to be able to implement the Backstab.

 

Of course, successfully sneaking up behind the opponent allows an attack at 1/2 DCV, so they almost always hit. The Critical Hit version adds +6 to OCV (only to achieve a Critical Hit -1/2) and when coupled with 1/2DCV for surprise makes Backstab critical quite often (a character with an OCV of 6 vs a target with a normal DCV of 6 has a 10- chance to achieve a Critical Hit with this attack!)

 

With the "Deadly Blow" version, I allow a +1 or +2 DC bonus (this adds to base damage, so maximum damage is significantly increased) on a successful Stealth roll.