How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

[Korvar]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Don't get me me started on Superman' date=' his psycho cowardly abhorrence to take a life even to save a universe,[/quote']

 

I've seen a couple of posts hinting at this, but I don't get the reference - could someone provide a summary? Maybe I should start reading comics regularly again?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Depends on the severity/situation.

 

Wartime heroes vs. enemy soldiers - OK

 

Only way to stop villain is to kill them - OK

 

Accidental deaths/deaths caused by villain's own weapons/plan/etc. - OK

 

Disregarding collateral damage (throwing grenade into classroom to get the agent, not caring about the kids inside) - No

 

Killing villains because they can, not because they have to - No

[Publius]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

On a slightly different topic' date=' why is every hero and villain (especially villains) sh*t scared of the Joker? Sure, he's nuts, and unpredictable, and dangerous... but he's weak as a kitten compared to most!!! It just never rang very true for me! In fact, about the only villain who doesn't seem scared of him is Lex Luthor, who is one of the few who would have reason to be![/quote']Two points I guess:

 

One: It depends on who you have writing for him, but pound for pound, the Joker is an evil unto himself (or actually "should be" with proper writing). He does not have powers, he does not have heightened natural abilities (except that transport out of Arkham any time he wishes ability); what he has is pure malevolence. He is also a mass murderer, a spree killer and a serial killer rolled into one. If you are someone who robs banks because you have superpowers, this guy would be more than just "creepy", the fact that he has taken down some superpowered foes would only heighten that.

 

The problem comes if you don't read stories where they have treated him properly, not having been back into comics regularly for some time I can't say how they are portraying him now. The Jokers "work" should be horrific, it should chill the soul. This shouldn't be one of those 1950's square jaw Batman v. pathetic Joker capers, it should involve horror in a Se7en like manner but a much larger scale.

 

Two: It has more or less become a convention, an offset to the Batman's badass reputation on the hero side. I'm happy to assume that there are some truly tortured nasty fcuked up sh*t that the Joker does "off camera" to keep up his rep. I'm just glad I don't have to read them.

 

Then again, maybe it is just Coulrophobia (a morbid fear of clowns).

[RDU Neil]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I think the whole thing with DareDevil Letting Bullseye Drop was really a matter of knowing bullseye woudl definitely kill again. which would be worse letting One person live so that he could kill hundreds if not thousands or Killig him to save those lives. If you think about it' date=' If Bats had applied that to the Joker, How many of Mister J's Victims would still be alive. It shouldnever be an esy thing to do and it should really mess the hero up a LOT. (Give HIm a traumatic Flashback disad for No points.)[/quote']

 

Didn't read every post yet... but this I agree with.

 

I want my heroes, super or not... to say, "You had your chance. You had your second and third chances. Society had a couple chances to deal with you and proven it's ineffectiveness. At this point, it would be unheroic of me NOT to kill you, as even the few second it takes to speak these words, you could kill more innocents, and obviously WILL do so if I don't stop you permanently. I hate to do this, I hate you for making me do this... but that will not stop me from doing what is necessary."

 

BANG (or SNIKT!... or ZARK!... or FFWAAAASSSHHH!)

 

 

It should have repercussions... it should be very, very serious... but it should be done.

[RDU Neil]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Oh... and it should be FINAL.

 

None of this stupid resurrection stuff that goes on in comics. For badguys AND good guys.

 

Dead is dead is dead.

[JmOz]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I hate superheros that kill. To me there are no superheros that kill.

 

Only second-rate villains. I don't care who he is, whatever the storyline, a superhero does not kill. If he does he ceases to be super.

 

A superhero is not super because he can see Uranus, in closeup, on a clear day, or because he can run around the world while you sneeze. A superhero is a hero because he is morally(as well as physically superior) to normal people. I do not say that heros do not kill. I am saying that Superheros do not.

 

Don't get me started on the Authority. Bunch of Gits the Lot of them.

 

So Superman is no longer a superhero to you?

Nor Wonder Woman

Nor Captain America

Nor Green Lantern (almost any of them, most were part of the summary execusion of sinestro in GLC #224)

Nor Flash

 

I think that your statement is to broad of a generalisation

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I've seen a couple of posts hinting at this' date=' but I don't get the reference - could someone provide a summary? Maybe I should start reading comics regularly again? [/quote']

 

It was the "Joker Emperor" miniseries. Basically, Joker manages to steal Mr. err. the 5-Dimension gnome, reality-warping powers and sets himself up as the whimsical tyrannical evil God of DC's universe, rewriting reality to satisfy his morbid sense of humor and setting JLA heroes in torturing time-loops (yes, it was as bad as it seems). At last, his rough tinkering with reality sets the universe to crash course to oblivion. All the DCverse cosmic figures (Spectre, Quintessence, Zauriel, etc.) and the other JLA big guns have been utterly defeated, Supes is the only one left to save a reality minutes away from collapse, Joker has just rip out his heart and is practically taunting/begging Kal-El to mercy kill him (cause he is somehow aware that he'll destroy everything, but he's too mad to self-control and stop himself), and the big blue lummox cannot bring himself to land a killing blow even to save all that is. Yeah, it might not have worked, but with those odds, he had the absolute duty to try. There I realized that Supes' absolute refusal to kill even to save innocents might not just be desplicable moral cowardice and aiding and abetting evil, but a psychosis just as severe as Joker's, only less obvious.

[Egyptoid]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

well a superhero killed in our session a few weeks ago:

 

Portus is a master of teleportation, and we're in a space-based game.

 

He grabs a nasty villain (rad damage shield)

and teleports himself and bad guy to deep oceans of Triton (moon of ).

 

ALL of bad guys powers shut off in water, but Portus has full life support.

Plus baddie had some susceptibilities to the alien environment.

 

Bad guy lasted about 2 segments, as he was simultaneously

frozen, squashed, poisoned, dissolved, and drowned.

 

Nobody else (in game) knows wha happen. Portus said he was sorry.

For all the other PCs knew the bad guy escaped, but Portus told them.

 

Accident? not really. Murder? not really. Self-Defense? not really.

very grey area. IMHO.

[fbdaury]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

It was the "Joker Emperor" miniseries. Basically' date=' Joker manages to steal Mr. err. the 5-Dimension gnome, reality-warping powers and sets himself up as the whimsical tyrannical evil God of DC's universe, rewriting reality to satisfy his morbid sense of humor and setting JLA heroes in torturing time-loops (yes, it was as bad as it seems). At last, his rough tinkering with reality sets the universe to crash course to oblivion. All the DCverse cosmic figures (Spectre, Quintessence, Zauriel, etc.) and the other JLA big guns have been utterly defeated, Supes is the only one left to save a reality minutes away from collapse, Joker has just rip out his heart and is practically taunting/begging Kal-El to mercy kill him (cause he is somehow aware that he'll destroy everything, but he's too mad to self-control and stop himself), and the big blue lummox cannot bring himself to land a killing blow even to save all that is. Yeah, it might not have worked, but with those odds, he had the absolute duty to try. There I realized that Supes' absolute refusal to kill even to save innocents might not just be desplicable moral cowardice and aiding and abetting evil, but a psychosis just as severe as Joker's, only less obvious.[/quote']

 

 

AH-HA! But Supes HAS killed, he executed three kryptonian in an alternate version of earth. They were all more powerful than him, as they were pre-crisis level kryptonians and they kicked the hell out of him. They had also killed every person on that earth and would have done so on Supes earth if they found a way there. So he used gold kryptonite, which did not affect him due to it being different than the kryptonite he is harmed by, to strip their powers. He then executed them with green kryptonite. Since then he has shown a very severe reluctance to kill, true, but he was also willing to kill during the "Our Worlds at War" Crossover, after both Hippolyta and Guy Gardner and Lois' father were all killed. He decided that he would have to kill Imperiex to stop him and was willing to do so. So, while it is rare, there are insatances where this Superman WILL kill, only extremely rarely.

[OddHat]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

AH-HA! But Supes HAS killed' date=' he executed three kryptonian in an alternate version of earth. They were all more powerful than him, as they were pre-crisis level kryptonians and they kicked the hell out of him. They had also killed every person on that earth and would have done so on Supes earth if they found a way there. So he used gold kryptonite, which did not affect him due to it being different than the kryptonite he is harmed by, to strip their powers. He then executed them with green kryptonite. Since then he has shown a very severe reluctance to kill, true, but he was also willing to kill during the "Our Worlds at War" Crossover, after both Hippolyta and Guy Gardner and Lois' father were all killed. He decided that he would have to kill Imperiex to stop him and was willing to do so. So, while it is rare, there are insatances where this Superman WILL kill, only extremely rarely.[/quote']

 

This is an example of why I generally follow writers, not characters, in any serial medium. Moore's Superman is not Miller's Superman is not Byrne's Superman is not...

 

On the subject of Super-Morality for Super-Heroes, even if you accept that premise (I don't), there's the question of what you see as moral. I'd say that there are times when killing is the correct moral choice, but I wouldn't exect to change anyone's opinion on that even in a face-to-face conversatoion, let alone in an Internet debate.

[TheImperialKhan]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I can certainly understand what you're saying here.

 

In fact I've had a character get caught in that "very gray area" myself.

 

Back when I was running Centurion (basically an Iron-man clone) our team had to deal with a bunch of lunatics from another universe that called themselves the Purifiers, their mission was to save humanity from the mutant hordes by exterminating eveiry mutant in existance. Once they had done so in their home universe they started to move into others and kept right on killing mutants. Their favorite tactic was to kill the mutants when they were still children, preferably infants.

 

Well to make a long story short after tracking them across 3 universes our team managed to reach their stronghold on their homeworld which held their dimension-breeching gateway. Unfortunately the fortess was protected by a force-field that was impervious to normal weapons and super powers. But, Centurion learned that this world had never developed atomic weapons and thus the forcefield was not proof against them. So he built a nuclear missile and used it to send the Purifiers to the Hell that they so richly deserved.

 

But for months afterward he was tortured by that decision as the passage below will show. Sometimes killing really has to be done but there are always consequences to doing so which is as it should be. Does Centurion's use of what was a Weapon of Mass Destruction make him less of a hero? To some people, yes it does. To others, no it doesn't. It's really up to each reader to decide for themselves.

 

 

From VORTEX, an unfinished, Strike Force/Star Trek crossover:

 

9 May 1997 - Boston, MA. USA, Earth

 

My heart turned to ice as I looked upon the mangled bodies of the children. Children who had died screaming in agony. Tortured beyond the limits of endurance until, while they still cried for their helpless parents, their beating hearts had been cut from their bodies and stomped on. Crushed lifeless by the beasts that cloaked themselves in religious dogma and spoke of protecting humanity from the unclean ones who were clearly the spawn of Satan.

 

It might be asked, what had the children done to arouse such hatred? Quite simply they had been born mutants. Some part of their genetic code had been different from that which was considered “normalâ€. It wasn't anything that they had any control over, it just happened by random chance. Rather like having a flair for languages or being left-handed. Come a long way from the Dark Ages haven't we?

 

One of the still forms resolved itself into an extremely life-like iron statue of a young Asian girl in her early to mid teens. The statue wore close-fitting costume of blue spandex and thigh-high blue boots. Her hair wasn't iron but long, black and straight, damp with sweat. Her features, although frozen in time, were contorted with pain the cause of which was readily apparent. There was a softball-sized hole in the girl's body just below her left breast. If she had been flesh she would be dead already.

 

Her name was Qui Chen and she possessed the mutant power to turn her body into living metal. She was one of my friends and teammates among the meta-human Strike Force, where she was known by the code name of Iron Blossom. I'd never liked the idea of her doing this work. I felt it kept her from having a childhood. Now it had taken away her life as well.

 

In the distance the buzz that I had been hearing resolved itself into chant and then beyond the bodies I saw them. The Purifiers, perhaps a hundred of them. Rage filled me as I activated my boot jets. Soaring over the tangled bodies of their victims I saw the beasts scatter at my approach. As I reached the apex of my arc I triggered the firing circuits of my proton projectors. Twin streams of energized protons shot from the palm-mounted release apertures, lancing into the Purifiers dropping them by the dozens. But for each one that fell two more appeared to take his place.

 

Then the ground trembled and was rent open as a huge black citadel rose up as if from the bowels of hell. Purifiers crowded the ramparts by the thousands, and they were killing, torturing innocents to death. As my boot jets howled to maximum power I sped toward the citadel and attacked, loosing off all the precision-guided munitions at my command. Everything from proton projectors and long-range high explosive missiles, to armor piercing lasers and electron beams. But to no avail, the ordinance all splayed off a powerful force field that protected the citadel. Suddenly there was a small black box in my hand; it had a large red button in the center and a radio antenna coming out the top. I knew what it was. I knew what it controlled. My thumb came down on the button.

 

I could see the missile approach from the western horizon. The nosecone popped off and the single warhead deployed. It whistled as it homed in one the citadel. Then it hit the force field and detonated in an eye-searing flash. Even protected by my armor and at a distance of almost a mile I felt my flesh burn from the heat of the atomic fireball. Almost instantly my armor shut down as the electro-magnetic pulse purged my command and control systems. I had just enough time to register this fact when the blast wave hit. Five hundred mile per hour winds picked me up and threw me over four hundred yards, slamming me hard into something solid. I felt as if a team of giants were playing baseball and decided to make me the ball. But the forces that I had unleashed weren't through with me yet, for it was then that the negative pressure wave sucked me back into the space that the blast wave had thrown me out of. I landed face first; my head rang with the impact. Struggling to my feet I felt like I was moving in thick, warm liquid, the wave must have thrown me into a pool of molten metal, I thought. But as my vision began to clear I saw that such was not the case. I was standing hip-deep in a vast ocean of steaming blood. Something grasped my leg, I looked down to see a skeletal arm, bits of charred flesh still sticking to it, clutch at my hip. Then more hands emerged from the blood, grabbing me, pulling me down. I activated my boot jets but nothing happened, my armor was so much dead weight. I tried to fight but the hands were too strong, their grips unbreakable. I struggled. I screamed. I went under.

 

Gideon Stevens sat bolt upright in bed with aloud gasp, his sea-green eyes wide with shock as the nightmare released him. He sat for a few moments waiting for his heartbeat to return to normal, then got up and went into the bathroom. Turning on the cold water he splashed some on his face. Gideon pushed back the hair that fell in a thick black comma over his left eye, giving him a youthful appearance that belied his near forty years. He stared at the deceptively young face in the mirror. Thanks to the Perpetuon anti-aging treatments he knew that he would look no older for a very long time, and yet he could see the weight that his soul bore in that face. In the set of his jaw, the lines at the corners of his mouth and most of all in his eyes. The vast majority of people couldn't see it; he was good at hiding the pain, the agony of the soul that damned him. But he could see it and so could Bren.

 

"You had the dream again." She said from the bed, it was a statement, not a question. She knew him far too well to need to ask what had forced him from their bed at three in the morning.

 

Gideon looked at his wife. Even at this hour, awakened from a sound sleep, hair in disarray and no make-up what so ever Brenda Stevens was the most beautiful woman he had ever seen. Four years younger than her husband, Brenda stood 5' 11" tall and distributed 138 pounds over a figure that would have Marilyn Monroe green with envy. Dark blonde hair framed her face and hung down to the middle of her back in cascading waves. Her lips were full and luscious, her nose strong and straight and the eyes that gazed at him with concern were sea-green mirrors of his own. The powder blue silk chemise she wore accented every curve and yet concealed just enough so that she looked incredibly sexy without appearing wanton.

 

"I thought you promised you wouldn't read my mind." He quipped, consciously thrusting the thoughts of the dream away.

 

"Don't change the subject." She said getting out of bed and walking over to where he stood in the bathroom doorway.

 

As she did Gideon could see that the chemise was just the tiniest bit snug around her waist. He felt the apprehension over the dream melt away as he thought of the reason for that. Brenda was three months pregnant with their first child and was just beginning to show the tiniest signs of it. She wrapped her arms around him and said.

 

"If you can't tell me your troubles, who can you tell?"

 

Gideon kissed his wife gently as he hugged her close.

 

"You're right." He sighed. "And yes, I had the dream again."

 

"Oh, Gid." She said, her arms wrapped tightly around his neck. "When are you going to accept that you did the right thing? The Purifiers had killed millions across four universes that we know about, and god alone knows how many that we don't! Even Patriot says you did the right thing! And you know how Patriot feels about killing."

 

Gideon pulled away from Brenda's arms and walked over to the window to stare out at the black night.

 

"Patriot didn't come up with the idea, I did. Patriot didn't build the nuke, I did! Patriot didn't make the decision, I did!! Patriot didn't push the button, I did!!! And Patriot didn't kill a hundred thousand people!!!!" His voice, which had risen to a loud crescendo, now dropped to an anguished whisper. "I did."

 

Brenda strode over to the window, grabbed her husband by the arm and flung him on the bed with a textbook perfect judo throw. Then she jumped on top of him, straddling his stomach and holding him down with her left hand on his shoulder, while the index finger of her right poked him in the chest.

 

"Now you listen to me, Gideon Stevens!" She began, her eyes seeming to flash in the semi-darkness. "You did what had to be done. The Purifiers had exterminated every mutant in their home universe, but that wasn't enough for them. They had to export their twisted ideas into other universes, killing millions more, and they weren't going to stop either!"

 

"I should have found another way, Bren. I mean I'm not just some guy off the street. I'm Centurion, the Strike Force commander. I'm a superhero for christ's sake, I'm supposed to save people without wiping out a whole city. I'm…"

 

"And if there had been a way," Brenda interrupted, "you would have found it. But there wasn't! The Purifiers had tied their perverted ideas to religion. And you know damned well that once they did that any shred of rationality went right out the window!"

 

"But…"

 

"No! No buts. Maybe your answer wasn't a perfect solution, wrapped nice and neat with pretty ribbon and big bow. But it was the only one open to you."

 

Gideon thought it over for a few moments; rationally he knew she was right. But emotionally the stench of blood on his hands had been so strong that he didn't think it would ever wash away.

 

"You know they would have killed me…" Gideon locked his eyes on his wife's when she said this. She was right of course. Brenda Stevens was a mutant herself, a skilled and powerful telepath she had fought crime for years as Mindstar. Although she was now in what she called semi-retirement for the duration of her pregnancy.

 

"…and the baby."

 

"No!" Gideon thought his eyes widening in horror. "Not the baby!"

 

But he knew that it was true, knew that the Purifiers would have slaughtered their child. The twisted bastards had done it before, hundreds of times on this world alone. They liked going after children, they were easy targets and infants were the easiest of all. Gideon had gotten so wrapped up in the thought of what it was like to nuke a city out of existence that he had forgotten who the people on the receiving end truly were. What they had done and would have continued to do.

 

Suddenly the stench of blood was gone. Not completely, there was still a faint trace of it, but he could live with that. Brenda saw the weight that he had borne for so long lift from her husband's shoulders. She didn't need a mind scan to tell her that the man she loved was finally whole once more.

 

"Thanks, Bren." Gideon said gazing up at his wife. "Thanks for making me see."

 

Brenda bent down and kissed him tenderly.

 

"Just doing my job, Love."

 

Gideon returned the tender, loving kiss and as Brenda melted into his gentle embrace a sense of peace descended upon them and they soon fell into a deep sleep. Neither suspecting that their greatest trial lay just around the corner.

[CBikle]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Even though super-heroes that kill aren't in genre, I have less of a problem with a PC killing someone else if the action is in character and isn't just the player being in a bad mood or treating the game like a bad 80's hack n' slash D&D module.

 

It could also potentially disrupt the game if the other PCs have strong feelings about it.

 

As a GM, it makes it a lot harder to have recurring villains if the PCs just kill them all the time which kind of irks me.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Superheroes who kill to protect innocents are alright in my campaigns.

 

PC's who kill as a matter of coarse are not? They attract the attention of Law Enforcement, Media, Politcal, of coarse Superhuman Agencies. Which I play intelligently and in on case capture the so called "Superhero" and incarcerated him. (I asked the Player to create a new character. One that held life a little more respectfully. He did after I explained the issue.)

 

I like the Law Enforcement analogy, but I think a GM who allows a killer Supervillain to escape from justice several times, should expect to see the PC's kill him to stop him.

 

"To see Justice done!"

 

QM

[Kristopher]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I hate superheros that kill. To me there are no superheros that kill.

 

Only second-rate villains. I don't care who he is, whatever the storyline, a superhero does not kill. If he does he ceases to be super.

 

A superhero is not super because he can see Uranus, in closeup, on a clear day, or because he can run around the world while you sneeze. A superhero is a hero because he is morally(as well as physically superior) to normal people. I do not say that heros do not kill. I am saying that Superheros do not.

 

This is what I was asking about before.

 

Where does this notion of moral superiority come from?

[Tech]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Someone who calls themselves a hero yet callously kills when killing isn't the only option is no hero but someone deserving of a long jail sentence at the very least. No killer superhero has been allowed in the campaign and I don't see that changing.

 

It's interesting that this is brought up in that when I GM, the game is for the heroes. Yet, there have been a few deaths of criminals caused by superheros. In each of these cases, it became the last thing to do as there was no other choice. There have even been a few cases where the heroes actually managed to defeat the supervillain without killing even though it became a heated battle where the heroes were fearing losses on both sides.

 

One case: my very first and still-used hero, NEUTRON, met the Nest Leader who had caused him to become superpowered in the first place. FYI, I created Neutron before the Enemies I & II books so I didn't copy the name. The Nest Leader had done what every hero fears: found out all the background information about him that there was, including name, family, etc. After his wife (also superpowered) was kidnapped by Viper and eventualy rescued by Neutron, the Nest Leader decided on a showdown and demanded Neutron meet him in person. Neutron agreed, knowing that this was a give-up-or-else situation; his life, his families' life and his friends were all in danger. Neutron didn't even bother trying to use his powers as he correctly gauged that the Nest Leader was protected against his powers. He went straight for a Viper knife as did the Nest Leader. The battle ended with Neutron injured badly and the Nest Leader dead.

 

I'm glad to have players who create the kind of heroes that live their lives to be the stuff of legends; the stuff that newspapers write about, kids want to be like and even fangroups form to talk about the heroes.

[Libra]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

This notion of moral superiority comes from my conception of superheros. I don't care who they are, what they have done or what they will do, a superhero who kills in a premeditated fashion is not a superhero to me. I don't care if he is superman, the punisher, or Judge Dredd. If that person has killed willingly, then he is a Superhero no longer. Blame my Silver-Age attitude on an exposure to Vintage comics early in my comic reading career. And what is wrong with the Man of Steel? He is an icon. He is a hero. He is a Legend. Why does every angst-ridden, leather-loving, Iron-age fetishist beat on him?

 

He is not the hero I would wish to be, but he is a damn close second.

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I like the Law Enforcement analogy, but I think a GM who allows a killer Supervillain to escape from justice several times, should expect to see the PC's kill him to stop him.

 

QM

 

This is so very true. The amount of killing in a campaign depends mostly n how the GM arranges the setting, provided that PCs are neither casual killers nor absolute pacificists, which are IMO equally inappropriate extremes for heroic characters:

 

Don’t give them opponents that would deserve death, unless you expect them to kill: no serial killers, torturers, terrorists. Not to kill jaywalkers is one thing, sparing everyone the trouble of setting up a capital case for Jeffrey Dahmer or Osama is another.

 

 

Don’t give them opponents that are a clear and present threat to innocents and public safety, UNLESS they have alternative options to vigilantism/killing that are BY FAR better and WORK in the long run: murderous supervillains should stay locked/exiled/rehabilitated for good, the worst white collar criminals (organized crime bosses, corrupt government officials, criminal CEOs) should be liable to be neutralized and punished if their crimes are revealed no matter how many strings they pull and lawyers they deploy. This is a crucial point: if they see that the system doesn’t work, they will set up as judge, jury, and executioner, it’s unavoidable.

 

 

Every opponent that uses lethal force on them (or their loved ones), or tries to mess with their lives in ways worse than death is likely to be returned in kind: plan accordingly and be sure that any NPCs in the setting understands the potential price of trying to kill or thoroughly ruin the lives of supers or their loved ones.

 

 

If you put supers into battle situations (hordes of superpowered goons, alien/interdimensional invasions, nihilistic genocidal godlike super) creating a severe clear and present threat to nation/mankind/planet/galaxy/reality, they will behave as supersoldiers: they will likely shun from unnecessary killing, but if killing looks like best option to save the day, they will. Plan accordingly.

 

I do not think that heroic superhuman characters should stand to be greater paragon of morality (which morality ?) than the people they protect. Super-Morality for Super-Heroes is stupid. They already get the moral high ground by their selfless dedication to the common good, up to risking their own life. There can't be "a greater love than this". Pretending they should also be immaculate saints only makes them less, not more heroic because it devalues their sacrifice.

 

This is the poison the Comics Code injected into the genre, the idea that heroism can't be admirable unless you also manage to be role model for an arbitrary ('50s conservative values) moral code. It took decades, but finally the genre is fully maturing and escaping the straitjackets the infamous Comic Code imposed on it long (and the unavoidable but excessive reaction in the most extreme excesses of the Iron Age) and is allowed to evolve as a genre by adults for adults with adult themes, as it might have been (and happened in other contries, like japanese manga) long ago had the CC had existed. Sincerely, the longing for the CC conventions is something that leaves me utterly baffled, like longing for diapers or an abusive partner. It added nothing to the genre, only crippled its possiblities.

[Mike W]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Well, I think that the moral superiority aspect of heroes is important in making them heroes. At a minimum, they can't be less moral than society, and if we are going to make them "people" we should look up to(that's what heroes are for isn't it? for emulating or inspiration?) then they can't be morally bankrupt, otherwise, they have nothing worth looking up to other than powers that are unattainable. Heroes in history have always been personalities that we admired whether it was Achinlles or Aeneas, Sherlock Holmes(who did bend or break a few laws but had an innate sense of justice to guide him and keep him above the criminals he captured), or superheroes. I mean, if the hero has no better morals than the villain, he's not really a hero, just another jerk with a different agenda.

[gewing]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

When everyone is talking about killing the Joker, should they not perhaps keep in mind the fact that the man is insane? If he could be cured then he'd stop killing everyone, no doubt this lets Batman get some bat-sleep in his bat-bed in the mornings.

 

On a slightly different topic, why is every hero and villain (especially villains) sh*t scared of the Joker? Sure, he's nuts, and unpredictable, and dangerous... but he's weak as a kitten compared to most!!! It just never rang very true for me! In fact, about the only villain who doesn't seem scared of him is Lex Luthor, who is one of the few who would have reason to be!

 

 

How long has the Joker been around? 70 years? He has escaped and murdered again HOW many times?

 

 

I do agree that he should not be as terrifying as he has been made out to be.

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Blame my Silver-Age attitude on an exposure to Vintage comics early in my comic reading career.

 

On the contrary, I heartily hated Comics Code conventions even as a child and adolescent, and longed for the day something like Iron Age would have been born.

 

And what is wrong with the Man of Steel? He is an icon. He is a hero. He is a Legend.

 

Apart from the fact that an absolute refusal to kill when you swore to be a protector of the innocent makes you a coward and an hypocrite ?

 

And that an absolute refusal to defy the law makes you powerless and an accomplice against evil and justice sheltered by law ?

 

Only this: "Men that can hear atoms splitting shouldn't be allowed to ignore cries for help from Third World concentration camps".

 

 

Why does every angst-ridden, leather-loving, Iron-age fetishist beat on him?

 

He gets to be written as the poster child for the Comic Code system of values, even when it's crumbling in some many parts of the genre. If you hate that system of values and conventions, you get to hate him. Which is only tragic, if you think that the Golden Age Superman started by being a socially conscious hero, that would take on corrupt politicians, embezzlers and wifebeaters. Burn in Hell for a long, long time, Dr. Frederick Wertham.

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Well' date=' I think that the moral superiority aspect of heroes is important in making them heroes. At a minimum, they can't be less moral than society, and if we are going to make them "people" we should look up to(that's what heroes are for isn't it? for emulating or inspiration?) [/quote']

 

And selflessly dedicating oneself to the common good, being protectors and defenders and avengers out of sense of duty, isn't it inspiration enough?? This fixation on the superhero as saint utterly baffles me. Luke Skywalker mowes down enemies like grass and we all cheer him up like a true hero. Where's the difference with Wolverine ??

 

 

Heroes in history have always been personalities that we admired whether it was Achinlles or Aeneas, Sherlock Holmes(who did bend or break a few laws but had an innate sense of justice to guide him and keep him above the criminals he captured), or superheroes.

 

Achilles killed. Aeneas killed. They killed enemies in fair, open combat and are seen as heroic figures. Why can't superheroes be held to the same standard ??

 

I mean, if the hero has no better morals than the villain, he's not really a hero, just another jerk with a different agenda.

 

The villain kills the innocent, for convenience, on a whim, by treachery. The hero kills the guilty, in open combat, to protect the innocent, or punish evil. It seems like there's an huge moral difference.

[Kristopher]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

This notion of moral superiority comes from my conception of superheros. I don't care who they are' date=' what they have done or what they will do, a superhero who kills in a premeditated fashion is not a superhero to me. I don't care if he is superman, the punisher, or Judge Dredd. If that person has killed willingly, then he is a Superhero no longer. Blame my Silver-Age attitude on an exposure to Vintage comics early in my comic reading career. And what is wrong with the Man of Steel? He is an icon. He is a hero. He is a Legend. Why does every angst-ridden, leather-loving, Iron-age fetishist beat on him?[/quote']

 

Your first mistake is in assuming that people who question Superman's claim to the moral high-ground are angst-ridden, leather-loving, and/or "iron-age fetishists".

 

There's not a lot of heroism in putting unyielding moralism ahead of human lives.

[fbdaury]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Your first mistake is in assuming that people who question Superman's claim to the moral high-ground are angst-ridden, leather-loving, and/or "iron-age fetishists".

 

There's not a lot of heroism in putting unyielding moralism ahead of human lives.

 

Plus, once your at his power level, you are almost never put into a situation where there is no alternative to killing the villains. This is what makes Batman either a very moral person or a coward, dependiong on how you view him- he routinely is in situations where he probably should kill the villains as the alternatives are bleak, but he manages to stop the bad guys anyway, without killing them.

[Whitewings]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

In re: Batman and the Joker, the wrong question is being asked. Batman will not kill the Joker; to do so would be to violate his moral code irredeemably. He would kill if it were the true only option, as it was with the KGBeast, but he can can defeat the Joker without need of killing. The proper question is "Why do the authorities not throw the Joker into the most secure holding facility possible?" Under US law, it's entirely permissible to use any means necessary to confine a convicted felon, so long as those means are truly necessary.

 

For a couple of good examples from the DC universe, Mouse Man was placed in a birdcage hung in a regular cell, with a cat posted as an extra guard. Killer Frost, whose powers work by absorbing heat from her surroundings, was placed in a cell kept at a constant temperature barely above that of liquid nitrogen. So why isn't the Joker kept under security at least as tight as that placed on Dr. Lecter? He's just as insane and just as dangerous. Don't fault Batman for holding to his morals; fault the authorities for not getting through their thick heads that the Joker is intolerably dangerous and insane.

[fbdaury]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

In re: Batman and the Joker, the wrong question is being asked. Batman will not kill the Joker; to do so would be to violate his moral code irredeemably. He would kill if it were the true only option, as it was with the KGBeast, but he can can defeat the Joker without need of killing. The proper question is "Why do the authorities not throw the Joker into the most secure holding facility possible?" Under US law, it's entirely permissible to use any means necessary to confine a convicted felon, so long as those means are truly necessary.

 

For a couple of good examples from the DC universe, Mouse Man was placed in a birdcage hung in a regular cell, with a cat posted as an extra guard. Killer Frost, whose powers work by absorbing heat from her surroundings, was placed in a cell kept at a constant temperature barely above that of liquid nitrogen. So why isn't the Joker kept under security at least as tight as that placed on Dr. Lecter? He's just as insane and just as dangerous. Don't fault Batman for holding to his morals; fault the authorities for not getting through their thick heads that the Joker is intolerably dangerous and insane.

 

 

Actually, a better question is why the government hasn't executed the Joker yet? Insane or not, his body count would get him the chair, even in states without capital punishment!