How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

[Kristopher]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

What bothers me as much as a superhero who doesn't even hesitate to kill is a superhero who refuses to kill to the point that it's pathological -- to the point that it's obvious that their personal code is more important to them than saving innocent lives, more important than preventing suffering and destruction, and even more important than their family and friends.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

In general I prefer supers that don't kill, but if in a story sense it works, and if the emotional reaction to said killing are shown, if approriate, then I am generally okay with it.

Some examples - using two of the brightest heroes in comics -

 

Superman killing the three kryptonians. He had to go into space and clear his mind after making the very tough decision to do such a thing, and it affected the character. It also came up a few years ago, when everyone in the JLA were having thier anger and guilt pushed up, and Bats and Supes were arguing and Bats said something like "Yeah, but I've never killed anyone" and Supes responded with "Don't throw that in my face". That worked.

 

Captain American in the reboot before last, as a Marvel Knights line. This storyline was about terrorists and it was shortly after 9-11. In that story, he snaps the neck of the lead terrorist. Now cap was a Soldier in WW2 and had the golden age "it's okay to kill the enemy" mentality. The was it was written was that cap was treating this as a warzone rather than superheroing- so that changed his approach.

 

In both cases I had no problems with the characters killing someone- both cases had the character in exteme emotional states, and deciding that that was the only option. It wasn't something to be done all the time, just in that small circumstance.

[OddHat]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Something I'm trying to understand is the longing people have for heroes. Why are people eternally shocked and outraged when a famous athlete or actor turns out to be' date=' of all things, human, and falible, and maybe even a rotten person. Why is there still this idea floating around that athletes, for example, should be paragons of both physical prowess and personal character?[/quote']

 

Most of the appeal of celebrities comes from escapist projection; we either imagine actually being the celeb in question (or the character that celeb portrays), or we imagine that celeb as a friend, loved one or family member. We get crushes on attractive celebs we'll never meet, become furiously angry with celeb we'll never speak to, and mourn the deaths of celebs we never knew. Our memories of their fictional and athletic exploits are often sharper than our memories of our own lives; in a way, they are more real. When they show weakness, especially when the celebs we identify with show weakness, it's a betrayal of the fantasy relationship we've developed with the celeb in question (and a violation of the societal pack-alpha status that celebs are granted through their displays).

 

Makes you feel like an idiot when you buy products endorsed by wife-murderers.

[ShinDangaioh]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I think it depends on the character and what is going on in the story.

 

Sho Fukamachi aka Guyver

Cutey Honey

Devilman

 

Theese are heroes that kill and kill quite regualry, but they are in a war against beings that humans don't really have a chance against.

 

The Punisher, however, is a lunatic that needs to be put down.

 

It's pretty bad that the demonically possesed Johhny Blaze/Ghost Rider was a better hero than the Punisher.

[Black Omega]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I'm not sure how most superheroes would be classified as anything fascist' date=' super or otherwise. [/quote']Keeping in mind that fascism is placing the state before any and all individual concerns, I tend to agree.

 

"For the Fascist, everything is within the State and... neither individuals nor groups are outside the State.... For Fascism, the State is an absolute, before which individuals or groups are only relative...."

 

Superheros are more rugged individuals than fascist since they generally try to work outside the authority of the state.

[Agent333]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

For my own supers game, I knew that killing would be a big issue. So, I toned the campaign into a pitch-black Darkchamps theme with supers. After a few games, I realized that the PCs were more like a gang of super-villains than heroes. Thing was, it worked and thanks to one of my players actually having CVK, moral conundrums are fun to play out. (This is what happenes when the only game you've played for the last 5 years is Vampire the Masquerade... sheesh)

[fbdaury]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Keeping in mind that fascism is placing the state before any and all individual concerns, I tend to agree.

 

"For the Fascist, everything is within the State and... neither individuals nor groups are outside the State.... For Fascism, the State is an absolute, before which individuals or groups are only relative...."

 

Superheros are more rugged individuals than fascist since they generally try to work outside the authority of the state.

 

I understand why the 'fascist' concept has come up for superheroes but perjaps it's misnamed. It comes from the belief that these people set themselves above the law and use their powers to enforce their own personal set of beliefs upon others through violence. They, in essence, tell the public that "we do not trust your laws and your law-keepers to know what is right for you, but WE know what is right for you." How would you define that if not a form of fascism(not a rhetorical question, I'd really like to know how to properly label this)?

[OddHat]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I understand why the 'fascist' concept has come up for superheroes but perjaps it's misnamed. It comes from the belief that these people set themselves above the law and use their powers to enforce their own personal set of beliefs upon others through violence. They' date=' in essence, tell the public that "we do not trust your laws and your law-keepers to know what is right for you, but WE know what is right for you." How would you define that if not a form of fascism(not a rhetorical question, I'd really like to know how to properly label this)?[/quote']

 

"Being Young."

[Publius]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

"Being Young."

LOL!

 

Actually, I'd say that it is the kissing cousin of youth, often (but certainly not always) youth's accomplice in mischief: immaturity. The kind of immaturity that would be quite natural for someone who believes themselves to be "better" than the rest of humanity by dint of their special abilities. Then back that up with the power to do something about your "superior wisdom"...

[Mike W]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I think that it is much harder to make someone a hero if they kill. Heroes, by definition, are supposed to be very moral, generally more moral than those around them(or at least as moral). Killing is not an inherently evil or immoral act, but it needs very specific justification. Characters like Wolverine or the Punisher need a way of redeeming themselves to qualify as heroes - and must at least show some semblance of restraint about who they kill and when. For this reason, I would consider Wolverine a hero. He has his code of honor, and is actually very careful about who he kills anymore. Punisher has little code or restraint. He just kills whoever it is expedient to kill to achieve his goals, so I would consider him an anti-hero.

[Springald Jack]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I've actually been in a argument over this one at the M&M forums. I sort of think that the choice of "kill in extreme circumstances" vs. "never kill no matter the cost" is something every hero has to face. Both choices are heroic if made rightly.

 

The first is based on the principle that the goods of the many outweigh the goods of the few and killing extremes saves many from death.

 

The second says that it is not my place to decide who lives and who dies because I am not a god.

 

Which choice is right actually depends on how the consequences are played out.

[Mike W]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I've actually been in a argument over this one at the M&M forums. I sort of think that the choice of "kill in extreme circumstances" vs. "never kill no matter the cost" is something every hero has to face. Both choices are heroic if made rightly.

 

The first is based on the principle that the goods of the many outweigh the goods of the few and killing extremes saves many from death.

 

The second says that it is not my place to decide who lives and who dies because I am not a god.

 

Which choice is right actually depends on how the consequences are played out.

 

Agreed, but the idea that "killing is a routine option" that many "heroes", and I use the term loosely here, employ makes it difficult to call them true heroes. There are exceptions but when you look at a list of Punisher, Wolverine, Venom, Black Adam and the like. The number of actual heroes is quite small. Most end up being anti-heroes or even villains.

[Kristopher]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I understand why the 'fascist' concept has come up for superheroes but perjaps it's misnamed. It comes from the belief that these people set themselves above the law and use their powers to enforce their own personal set of beliefs upon others through violence. They' date=' in essence, tell the public that "we do not trust your laws and your law-keepers to know what is right for you, but WE know what is right for you." How would you define that if not a form of fascism(not a rhetorical question, I'd really like to know how to properly label this)?[/quote']

 

That's really not what fascism is, though.

[fbdaury]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

That's really not what fascism is' date=' though.[/quote']

 

I understand that as the terms go, it might not be, but how would you label it then?

[Kristopher]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I understand that as the terms go' date=' it might not be, but how would you label it then?[/quote']

 

A common human failing?

 

People who think they know what's best for everyone else are more common than not.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

A common human failing?

 

People who think they know what's best for everyone else are more common than not.

 

Yep.

 

And all but one of them are wrong.

 

Seriously, I think Authoritarian, or perhaps dictatorial, is the right term.

[gewing]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Depends on the genre of superhero. If it's Silver Age, they're very naughty. Iron Age, and it almost defines the genre. A hero who doesn't kill in an Iron Age comic is either very principled or... well, dead.

 

And another factor is the level of the "CvK" the hero exhibits. Do they plunge into grave danger to save the hired goon of the supervillain (or the villain themself) from the crashing supervehicle they just tried to ram into a bus-load full of nuns? Or pretty much "collateral death due to own actions" is ok? Killing is definitely a line that differentiates one type of genre/hero from another, but I don't think of it as "cut and dried"... rather more of a plot construct or story enhancement.

 

The only thing I have to add is that imo there are times when most heroes SHOULD kill.

 

Joker is threatening to nerve gas the gradeschool...

Joker is walking down the street...

 

sorry, got a little carried away there.

[Korvar]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I understand why the 'fascist' concept has come up for superheroes but perjaps it's misnamed. It comes from the belief that these people set themselves above the law and use their powers to enforce their own personal set of beliefs upon others through violence. They' date=' in essence, tell the public that "we do not trust your laws and your law-keepers to know what is right for you, but WE know what is right for you." How would you define that if not a form of fascism(not a rhetorical question, I'd really like to know how to properly label this)?[/quote']

 

Most superheroes don't deliberately set themselves above the law - they deal with menaces law enforcement can't deal with. Sometimes because the law just isn't there right now, or because the menace in question is too powerful for any law enforcement.

 

I've also not seen any mainstream superheroes that attack people for things that aren't already illegal by the laws of their society - so they're not deciding what's right for people. Can you think of an example of a superhero imposing their own code on people? I can't, off the top of my head, but maybe I'm just ignorant...

[shaunclinton]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

When everyone is talking about killing the Joker, should they not perhaps keep in mind the fact that the man is insane? If he could be cured then he'd stop killing everyone, no doubt this lets Batman get some bat-sleep in his bat-bed in the mornings.

 

On a slightly different topic, why is every hero and villain (especially villains) sh*t scared of the Joker? Sure, he's nuts, and unpredictable, and dangerous... but he's weak as a kitten compared to most!!! It just never rang very true for me! In fact, about the only villain who doesn't seem scared of him is Lex Luthor, who is one of the few who would have reason to be!

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Personally I think that once a superhuman makes the decision to undergo the caped crusading career he/she should make a basic decision, either a) to sign up as a government special agent/super-soldier and then he should be killed when he's called up to by his duty, like a cop or soldier or he decides that he has a moral duty to use his powers for the common good or a worthy cause and then he should be coherent with his calling which also mandates that when it would be the better/right thing to do, he *ought* to break the law and/or kill.

 

Therefore, I do not think that near-absolute CvK codes are appropriate for superhero characters (and "I won't kill to save a million" extreme is never, ever, ever acceptable). They might be very occasionally present in some characters, but they should be treated as crippling psychological limitations, like phobias, not the expected moral high ground. Default expected morality in heroic characters should be "warriors with a morality": killing innocents or just because it's expedient is never acceptable. Killing in combat may be acceptable when it's necessary for the common good or it's "just the human thing to do": in war situations, in self-defense, to protect or avenge a friend/loved one or an innocent. Summarily killing in cold blood may be appropriate when the character is guilty of very serious crimes (mass, serial, premeditated murder, terrorism, torture, child rape) and the character either is convinced the legal system will not serve justice appropriately and/or giving an example is necessary.

 

Moral codes somewhat more or less restrictive than this are proablematic but may be acceptable. True casual killing or extreme pacifism (I won't kill in any circumstances) are never acceptable in an heroic character. Therefore, limited 5-pts or 10-pts CvK codes as described in DC are IMO the best "default" morality for heroic characters. 20-pts CvK or Casual Killer Psych Lims should never be part of an heroic character. The area in between is to be negotiated and reviewed case-by-case.

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I understand why the 'fascist' concept has come up for superheroes but perjaps it's misnamed. It comes from the belief that these people set themselves above the law and use their powers to enforce their own personal set of beliefs upon others through violence. They' date=' in essence, tell the public that "we do not trust your laws and your law-keepers to know what is right for you, but WE know what is right for you." How would you define that if not a form of fascism(not a rhetorical question, I'd really like to know how to properly label this)?[/quote']

 

Robin Hood.

The guys that stormed the Bastille.

Zorro.

 

It's not to say that "rebelling against the law" is always the right thing to do (though always unquestioningly obeying the laws, yes even democratic laws, is very, very far from being the right thing to do), but that once one makes the fateful decision that having special abilities carries a resposbility to use them for the common good or a worthy cause according to the mandates of one's conscience, it must be recognized that an unavoidable consequence of this mandate is that sometimes the law *ought* to be defied when it conflictes with the dictates of one's conscience. It's not mandatory to become a vigilante: one might decide to become a sanctioned enforced of law. When a superhuman feels the "with great responsiblity" moral call, he has two roads to choose: either super-soldier or vigilante. Each one has a potential moral pitfall: either to become an arbitrary thug with no discernible moral code behind one's actions, or the enforcer for a tyrannical or unjust law.

[Libra]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I hate superheros that kill. To me there are no superheros that kill.

 

Only second-rate villains. I don't care who he is, whatever the storyline, a superhero does not kill. If he does he ceases to be super.

 

A superhero is not super because he can see Uranus, in closeup, on a clear day, or because he can run around the world while you sneeze. A superhero is a hero because he is morally(as well as physically superior) to normal people. I do not say that heros do not kill. I am saying that Superheros do not.

 

Don't get me started on the Authority. Bunch of Gits the Lot of them.

[Markdoc]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Don't get me started on the Authority. Bunch of Gits the Lot of them.

 

I think that was the point - the original series writer said "The Authority are the villains of their own story" meaning that if you go round killing people - even in a good cause - you end up as a villain. Of course this is a comic, not real life, where such clean distinctions can be made.

 

cheers, Mark

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I hate superheros that kill. To me there are no superheros that kill.

 

Only second-rate villains. I don't care who he is, whatever the storyline, a superhero does not kill. If he does he ceases to be super.

 

A superhero is not super because he can see Uranus, in closeup, on a clear day, or because he can run around the world while you sneeze. A superhero is a hero because he is morally(as well as physically superior) to normal people. I do not say that heros do not kill. I am saying that Superheros do not.

 

Don't get me started on the Authority. Bunch of Gits the Lot of them.

 

This kind of stance is the reason why I am often quite reluctant to use the term "superhero". Sometimes it comes with far too much annoying comics code emotional baggage. I prefer to say "heroic superhumans". However, IMO "superhero" = "heroic person with superhuman powers". I understand others may differ, but their interpretation cannot be accepted as the undisputed canon. Unpopular as it may be on these forums, four color isn't luckily the totality of the genre.

 

Don't get me me started on Superman, his psycho cowardly abhorrence to take a life even to save a universe, and his lapdog servility to The Man, and I won't get you started on Authority and their questionable disregard for the lives of enemies and the laws of the land. Fair is fair.

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I think that was the point - the original series writer said "The Authority are the villains of their own story" meaning that if you go round killing people - even in a good cause - you end up as a villain. Of course this is a comic, not real life, where such clean distinctions can be made.

 

cheers, Mark

 

uhm, yeah, soldiers and freedom fighters are just jailhouse stuff :