Biggest whine about HERO

[Mentor]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Hero isn't deadly enough, actually particularly at the low end. GURPS ran into a similar problem just from the opposite direction when it tried to do Supers, IMO.

 

 

 

"Compromise is the state where all parties are equally unhappy."

I found the opposite to be the case.

 

My first experience with the Hero system was Champions in 1980 followed by Danger International in 1981(?) and I was amazed at how incredibly deadly gunfire could be to PCs built on normal human characteristics. 4 BODY from an Uzi which hit three times meant that the not only was the PC bleeding fast but was unconscious and at the mercy of anyone who wanted to finish the job.

 

I then ran a Western campaign and had the same kind of experience when a party of five pretty tough cookies went up against a dozen Commanchero mooks. The good guys won, but all but one PC had to spend a month recovering their BODY take from the gunshot wounds.

 

If Killing Attacks were used only for deadly genres, they are about right. In Superhero genre, Batman or Spiderman are not often hit by long term gushot wounds, so not having thme hit easily or damaged terribly is in genre.

[Kristopher]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find HERO much that complicated, and at least to me it's far more intuitive than most systems.

 

d20 only looks simple because it has fewer options and fewer dice. And there's nothing at all intuitive about that system.

 

White Wolf's previous 2nd and 3rd edition were pretty simple in a way, and made for quick play, but the metaplot sucked rotten eggs and there was no way to step outside the lines the game gave you that wasn't A) reliant on your own judgement as to balance and scale and sneered at by purists. White Wolf's new system is an afront to the gaming gods.

 

Deadlands was...about as obtuse and needlessly complicated as I've seen. Dice, cards, poker chips, etc, etc, etc, and a character creation system that was almost as complex as building a Champions character, unless you were satisfied with the stock PCs.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Heck, there are people like Ki-rin who thinks Captain America's shield needs the Bulky, Restrainable, OAF and Independant limits. With things like that going on- why would anyone think that they are playing the same game as another HERO using group.

If I must be slammed In Abstentia, at least get the facts right?

 

I don't believe in "must". I do believe, like Sam Bell, that Homage builds should try to mimic the source material AMAP, and I asked for input from others BECAUSE I DON"T THINK I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.

 

Restrainable, OIF, Unique (Like Excalibur and The Grail, it -can't- be duplicated), and Independent were the Limitations that survived the discussion in question.

 

Sheesh.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

My biggest whine is that there aren't going to be as many Star Hero products. *sigh*

 

Continous on Damage Shield.

 

ECs - they should be for anything, not just end using powers.

 

But I house rule those anyway.

 

 

 

As for others -

I don't mind the stun lotto.

I like the complexity.

I like the fact that you only _need_ the rulebook to run a game. You need nothing else. I never used published settings, and few published characters so I don't see those as "needs"

I love the cover - on a display shelf with all these samey kind of blandish artwork covers the black monolith really stands out. It has drawn the eye a number of times at the game shop I work at.

[Force]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

If I must be slammed In Abstentia, at least get the facts right?

 

I don't believe in "must". I do believe, like Sam Bell, that Homage builds should try to mimic the source material AMAP, and I asked for input from others BECAUSE I DON"T THINK I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.

 

Restrainable, OIF, Unique (Like Excalibur and The Grail, it -can't- be duplicated), and Independent were the Limitations that survived the discussion in question.

 

Sheesh.

 

I believe that very few people agreed with the independent limitation, but you decided to go with it anyways.

 

That's the problem with having such a generic system and one of my gripes about the Hero System.

 

It has become so generic that it's becoming bloated due to the system having to be adapted to so many different genre's, some of which it does not 'convert' well to.

[incrdbil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

 

Deadlands was...about as obtuse and needlessly complicated as I've seen. Dice, cards, poker chips, etc, etc, etc, and a character creation system that was almost as complex as building a Champions character, unless you were satisfied with the stock PCs.

 

I'm thinking of having T-Shirts made toting that "I survived " ....". Choose your favorite painful system.

 

 

1. making a character for Rolemaster (using all optional rules from the 3 compendiums).

2. making a character for Avalon Hill's Power and Perils. (I never complained about math in champions again).

3. making a character for Aftermath.

4. One round of combat in any any game using the Phoenix Command system

5. reading Space Opera.

 

 

Hero complicated? Pah. Wusses.

[Fox1]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

1. making a character for Rolemaster (using all optional rules from the 3 compendiums).

2. making a character for Avalon Hill's Power and Perils. (I never complained about math in champions again).

3. making a character for Aftermath.

4. One round of combat in any any game using the Phoenix Command system

5. reading Space Opera.

 

 

Hero complicated? Pah. Wusses.

 

Did all the above. For #4 I've done entire battles, multiple times.

 

None of them have a core HERO complexity, i.e. depending upon the GM to make up everything that exists in the campaign.

 

It's not the SPD chart or combat rules that causes beginning GMs problems. Those are easy. It's character and item creation.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I'm thinking of having T-Shirts made toting that "I survived " ....". Choose your favorite painful system.

 

 

1. making a character for Rolemaster (using all optional rules from the 3 compendiums).

2. making a character for Avalon Hill's Power and Perils. (I never complained about math in champions again).

3. making a character for Aftermath.

4. One round of combat in any any game using the Phoenix Command system

5. reading Space Opera.

 

 

Hero complicated? Pah. Wusses.

 

6. Playing a fleet action in Star Fleet Battles .

7. Playing out a campaign of Starfire: New Empires to conclusion.

8. Making a useful character in Traveller without them dying at least once during the character creation process.

[incrdbil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Did all the above. For #4 I've done entire battles, multiple times.

 

None of them have a core HERO complexity, i.e. depending upon the GM to make up everything that exists in the campaign.

 

It's not the SPD chart or combat rules that causes beginning GMs problems. Those are easy. It's character and item creation.

 

Umm, Character creation is a cinch--especially on the heroic level in comparison to those games I mentioned.

 

As for making items/campaigns, there's a kaboodle of sourcebooks chock full of stuff to use.

[Kristopher]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Speaking of those kinds of systems, one of the reasons I adore HERO is that character creation is the antithesis of those systems in which even the character's background is the result of random, uncontrolled rolls, such as Mechwarrior 3, and Traveller IIRC.

 

I'd like to play the character I have in mind, not the character the dice randomly spit out for me.

[Kristopher]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

In terms of the system and math, creating NPCs and items has never been much of a problem for me. IMO, the only thing that HERO doesn't handle with ease is vehicles and vehicle combat, especially as you scale up.

[Fox1]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Umm' date=' Character creation is a cinch--especially on the heroic level in comparison to those games I mentioned. [/quote']

 

It's easy if you know what you're doing, or if you're building for an already existing campaign who's style and limits you already understand.

 

If not, it's pure chaos as you're forced to decided upon values without reference.

 

Most (if not all) the actual system based whines (I can used that word, it's in the subject header) in this thread are due to this simple problem.

[incrdbil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

It's easy if you know what you're doing, or if you're building for an already existing campaign who's style and limits you already understand.

 

If not, it's pure chaos as you're forced to decided upon values without reference.

 

Most (if not all) the actual system based whines (I can used that word, it's in the subject header) in this thread are due to this simple problem.

 

Well, its a problem that doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. any game becaoimes hard when you are building characters for a style and limits you don't understand. Considering the ample genrea books that already exist for hero, making it rather easy to set the limits and style, I don't see where this complaint comes from. Unless you are making your own genre, a specialized game all on your own--at whihc point I'ld assume you have some knowledge about the genre you want to simulate.

 

Using aftermath to create a character made a survivalist. you didnt know if it was a survivalist fir for a compleletey decayed technology campaign, with no modern tech left, a just after the apocalyspe campaign, with stockpiles of the good stuff still to be found. God knows what type of campaign Powers and Perils actually led to--just creating the character and looking at the sprawlign mass was enough to kill that game. and rolemaster--well, it was a generic set of fantasy rules dependent on you buying genre books if you weren't creating your own game from scratch.

 

I'm not getting your complaint, unless it runs like this. 'I'm using 5er to make a Fantasy game..but I refuse to get Fantasy hero or any sourcebook about it. Darn, this is hard because you have you make everything up!"

 

well, yeah, when you choose not to use the existing genre books, campaigns, compendiums and such, you do have to make things up. How is this different than anything else?

[TheEmerged]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

RE: The Genre Books I hate to agree, but find that I have to -- with the exception of Ninja HERO, I feel that I didn't get my money's worth with those I've purchased (Star HERO, Fantasy HERO, Ninja HERO, and Champions). There's one chart in Champions I found useful, and I found that I ended up making my own version of it. I haven't had a reason to open it since. Even with Ninja HERO I found that there was too much redundency...

[Fox1]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Well' date=' its a problem that doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. any game becaoimes hard when you are building characters for a style and limits you don't understand. Considering the ample genrea books that already exist for hero, making it rather easy to set the limits and style, I don't see where this complaint comes from. [/quote']

 

Read the threads here.

 

People don't know how to handle killing attacks, they don't understand how to balance combats, they don't understand when to use and not to use some limits/advantages.

 

It goes on and on. I'll have to say that 90% of the problems raised on this board is due to not understanding how to build characters and items to a consistent campaign standard. If they understood that these boards would nearly be mute except for the "completely overhaul the system" crowd.

 

The genre books don't help a flip in this respect. Some of them in fact worsen the problem as the authors are more interested in showing off cool tricks than they are giving real advice.

[incrdbil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

People don't know how to handle killing attacks, they don't understand how to balance combats, they don't understand when to use and not to use some limits/advantages.

 

Clueless-ness is not a system fault. The rules for killing attacks are pretty simple. Gauging the effect is as well, unless they can't figure out potential range of damages. As for balancing combat, thats a learned skill any GM gets through time, and rarely is any systems rating scale perfectly balanced considering the infinite variations you come across from game to game.

 

 

The genre books don't help a flip in this respect. Some of them in fact worsen the problem as the authors are more interested in showing off cool tricks than they are giving real advice.

 

Sounds like a personal gripe, buit back to the point--there's no accuracy in your statement that the Hero GM is forced to build a campaign from the ground up because there is nothing out there for him.

 

You've got the level of aid you need--genre book, setting book. If you have your own campaign world, just grab the genre book. Honestly, if you want to use a pre-fab campaign, you can probably just get by with the setting book, the genre book is helpful.

 

Showing off cool tricks? Like..sample powers, sample devices..umm, the stuff you're saying isn't there?

 

Oh heck, if you need to be spoon fed, go by a load of d20 crap, modules so you don't have to think about making your games and go start a whine thread on the WotC forums.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

RE: The Genre Books I hate to agree' date=' but find that I have to -- with the exception of Ninja HERO, I feel that I didn't get my money's worth with those I've purchased (Star HERO, Fantasy HERO, Ninja HERO, and Champions). [/quote']

 

Of course on the opposide side you have me. I've gotten much more use out of all of the genre books than any of the setting material that came after them. I use FH a great deal, and never crack open Turakian Age (aside from the intial reading), and I read Valdoran and expect the same thing there.

Champions was great, is somewhat redundant as I have run supers for nigh on to two decades, but aside from CKC I use it more than anthing in the CU. Star Hero is different, there the settings actually spoke to me, and when/if they get the other base settings books out for a full timeline (Galactic Fed and Solar Hero mainly) I'll likely run a game there, but I get lots of use out of Star Hero.

Ninja Hero was just too cool for words.

[Fox1]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Oh heck' date=' if you need to be spoon fed, go by a load of d20 crap, modules so you don't have to think about making your games and go start a whine thread on the WotC forums.[/quote']

 

I've been at this for a very long time, longer than anyone but the original designers. During that time I've dealt with large numbers of people attempting to use that system. Myself, I have no problems of any kind with HERO- so shove your 'tude where the light doesn't shine.

 

I'm telling you how the system and many of those people react in the real world. There are people not buying the game, and other who aren't doing very well after buying it for the very reasons I gave. You don't want to believe and wish to insist on overlying your worldview onto theirs- fine. Have fun. It's not my job to teach the unwilling.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I'm telling you how the system and many of those people react in the real world. There are people not buying the game, and other who aren't doing very well after buying it for the very reasons I gave. You don't want to believe and wish to insist on overlying your worldview onto theirs- fine. Have fun. It's not my job to teach the unwilling.

 

What, you've taken surveys? If so, please post the data.

 

But it seems more likely that you're just generalizing your own biases about what's useful and what isn't, and pretending they have some objective value.

[Fox1]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

What, you've taken surveys? If so, please post the data.

 

But it seems more likely that you're just generalizing your own biases about what's useful and what isn't, and pretending they have some objective value.

 

None of us here have real life survey numbers that would pass professional muster; we are all speaking from personal PoVs. And that includes the one I was responding too. My PoV includes groups from multiple states, players that number into the hundreds, and decades of using the system.

 

Add to that the very evidence of this thread and the whole board.

 

It results in one conclusion, a great many people have no idea at all how to make a consistent functional campaign with this game system. And rather than blame their own inability and seek to improve they understanding and use, they want to take it out on the elements of the system that has escaped them.

 

Nothing that HERO does can change this as long as it remains a constuction based system. Everyone can't master those concepts. Thus HERO at best will remain as it is, a small market share of high quality (at least for those who understand how to best used the core mechanics). To whine about this, is to ask for a completely different game.

[Phil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Clueless-ness is not a system fault. The rules for killing attacks are pretty simple.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. If a system has two forms of damage which applies against the same defences but under different circumstances and is calculated and applied in a completely different way, then yes, that is the systems fault that it is at least significantly more complicated than the vast majority of rpg damage systems. Sure, you and I understand them fine, but for most newcomers to HERO this will be an eye-opener. So a 1d6KA is roughly equal to 15 STR, but while 3d6 counts body as 1 on a 2-5 or 2 on a 6, 1d6KA does 1d6 body multiplied by 1d6-1 for STUN unless I use hit locations in which case the body is also multiplied by something and STUN is multiplied by something else and STUN is recovered but BOD isnt, and both apply to PD but 1d6KA only to rPD which is rPD armour plus any damage resistance upto the limit of the PCs own PD while 3d6 STR has full PD and full armour, assuming armour applies of course...etc.etc.

[incrdbil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I've been at this for a very long time, longer than anyone but the original designers. During that time I've dealt with large numbers of people attempting to use that system. Myself, I have no problems of any kind with HERO- so shove your 'tude where the light doesn't shine.

 

Funny, for someone who's been playing the game so long, why are you talking like a 2 week gaming rookie seemingly overwhelned by the not to puzzling divisions between rulebook/genre/specific setting? If some dimwit picks up the Hero book,, wants to do a Fantasy campaign, and thinks they have to make it up themsleves, there's nothign that can be doen for that person except make sure the donor section of their drivers license is checked 'yes' and start harvesting organs immediately--brain death has already occurred.

 

There are people not buying the game, and other who aren't doing very well after buying it for the very reasons I gave. You don't want to believe and wish to insist on overlying your worldview onto theirs- fine. Have fun. It's not my job to teach the unwilling.

 

Well, there are lots of people buying all sorts of games and screwing it up. After years of playing, I'm amazed you havent come to to the conclusion that it doesn't matter how good a system is, the majority of screwups and problems with any system come from people who whine about a game without reading more than the introductory paragraph from the most vital sections of the rules.

 

But if they have an actual problem with the rules based on facts, hey, find something they like. I'ld prefer they did that than try to play Hero and endlessly whine the game isn't something else instead.

[incrdbil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

 

Clueless-ness is not a system fault. The rules for killing attacks are pretty simple.

 

Sorry, but this is nonsense. If a system has two forms of damage which applies against the same defences but under different circumstances and is calculated and applied in a completely different way, then yes, that is the systems fault that it is at least significantly more complicated than the vast majority of rpg damage systems.

 

Waa. Many games have different types of damage. Maybe we coudl get brain dead and pick up hit points so being beaten by a sack of feathers is indistinguisable from being stabbed by a knife, but thankfully for a game that's supposed ot be a tad flexible someone realized it works differently.

 

So there's a difference between resistant and killing damage. You may as well complain about Damage from mental attacks beign different, or power attacks. different types of attacks, certain defenses apply. In the case of killing nd normal attacks, they are not, as you claim, going against the same defenses. There's a pretty clear distinction between normal and resistant defenses--some powers grant both at once, but whatever.

 

wow, the terribly compication of it all.

 

Normal damage: count sum of dice. Easy menthod to determine body.

Killing damage: total dice, multiply.

 

Really, if this is an overcomplicated system to keep track of, I'd hate to imagine what the requirements would be to be called 'too simplistic'.

 

 

Sure, you and I understand them fine, but for most newcomers to HERO this will be an eye-opener.

 

moreso than any other game to a player (well, excluding toon perhaps). If players can keep their heads above whater witht he incoherent mess that's D&D, or managed to stumble through the old World of Darkness system, they've got the ability to handle Hero, or about any other game.

 

So a 1d6KA is roughly equal to 15 STR,

In active points, maybe. As a form of attack, not really.

 

but while 3d6 counts body as 1 on a 2-5 or 2 on a 6, 16KA does 1d6 body multiplied by 1d6-1 for STUN

 

Why yes, you do know the difference between normal and killing damage.

 

unless I use hit locations in which case the body is also multiplied by something and STUN is multiplied by something else

 

If you are using hit locations, you are using it for both normal and killing damage because it's genre relevant. Not a mystery.

 

 

and STUN is recovered but BOD isnt

 

they return at different rates, yes. Would you rather have hitpoints so we could have normal joes cheerfully walking through flaming infernos knowing a a nights sleep will make it all better?

 

 

and both apply to PD but 1d6KA only to rPD which is rPD armour plus any damage resistance upto the limit of the PCs own PD while 3d6 STR has full PD and full armour, assuming armour applies of course...etc.etc.

 

Just because you explain the rules haphazardly, and deliberately trying to make them confusing doesn't make them so.

 

 

Yeesh, this thread needs some Midol.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Waa. Many games have different types of damage. Maybe we coudl get brain dead and pick up hit points so being beaten by a sack of feathers is indistinguisable from being stabbed by a knife' date=' but thankfully for a game that's supposed ot be a tad flexible someone realized it works differently.[/quote']

 

Let's remember that even D&D now has:

 

- Hit Points to reflect "lethal" damage

- Non-lethal damage to reflect Stunning damage

- Ability damage to reflect damage to stats (eg. poison)

 

Each of these have different rules and different recopvery rates. Much like Hero has BOD, Stun and Adjustment powers.

[Force]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Waa. Many games have different types of damage. Maybe we coudl get brain dead and pick up hit points so being beaten by a sack of feathers is indistinguisable from being stabbed by a knife, but thankfully for a game that's supposed ot be a tad flexible someone realized it works differently.

 

So there's a difference between resistant and killing damage. You may as well complain about Damage from mental attacks beign different, or power attacks. different types of attacks, certain defenses apply. In the case of killing nd normal attacks, they are not, as you claim, going against the same defenses. There's a pretty clear distinction between normal and resistant defenses--some powers grant both at once, but whatever.

 

wow, the terribly compication of it all.

 

Normal damage: count sum of dice. Easy menthod to determine body.

Killing damage: total dice, multiply.

 

Really, if this is an overcomplicated system to keep track of, I'd hate to imagine what the requirements would be to be called 'too simplistic'.

 

The game is not just a 'tad' flexible. It's so flexible that you don't even know how much damage a sword does when you pick up the core rulebook!

 

5th and 5ER are good books for veterans of the hero system. However, can you imagine someone brand new to it feeling a bit overwhelmed?