Game of Thrones

[Cargus10]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

There are a lot of flawed characters in the books. Caetlyn Stark is a major one, IMO. She is, in some ways, the cause of much of the crap that occurs.

 

And while you do tend to care about even the villains, there are a few that are just uniformly unsavory. Cersei Lannister, for example, or the aforementioned Gregor Clegane. But there are some real diamonds in the rough too, like Davos Seaworth or Brienne.

[Twilight]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

There are a lot of flawed characters in the books. Caetlyn Stark is a major one, IMO. She is, in some ways, the cause of much of the crap that occurs.

 

And while you do tend to care about even the villains, there are a few that are just uniformly unsavory. Cersei Lannister, for example, or the aforementioned Gregor Clegane. But there are some real diamonds in the rough too, like Davos Seaworth or Brienne.

 

Pity the author clearly enjoys killing off said diamonds in the rough. In fact, most of the characters I found likable in the first book were either killed off or turned into unlikable ***** by the end of book four. Since he's not actively replacing these likable characters with more likable characters, I feel disinclined to continue reading the series.

[Cargus10]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

Yeah. if he offs Jon Snow or makes him into a *****, I'll be very upset. Although, if you look on the fan forums, a ton of people absolutely HATE Jon Snow because he's "the good guy". Apparently being honorable makes for boring characters...who knew?

 

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'm not all that into anti-heroes, particularly when there is scope for them and heroes as well.

[Twilight]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

Yeah. if he offs Jon Snow or makes him into a *****, I'll be very upset. Although, if you look on the fan forums, a ton of people absolutely HATE Jon Snow because he's "the good guy". Apparently being honorable makes for boring characters...who knew?

 

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'm not all that into anti-heroes, particularly when there is scope for them and heroes as well.

 

I don't mind the occassional anti-hero here and there but not when they're the only characters present. I guess I'm old fashioned too but when I read a story I like to have characters who are actually heroic, or at the very least likable, in them. Especially when the story in question is epic fantasy.

 

Given what Martin has done in the past books in the series however, I'm sure the three remaining characters I like will end up dead or ******** by the time the series is over.

[Old Man]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

The thing is, even the most likable characters are not pure heroes any more than the cads are pure antiheroes. Consider Ned Stark. The first time you read Book 1, he's obviously a good guy, right? Read it again and he's an inflexible, rigid, dangerously naive boy scout. Jon Snow is flawed too, just not to that extent.

[Cargus10]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

Some flaws are cool - everyone has them. I just don't want the flaws taking over EVERYONE. Ned had issues, for sure, but he really did know a lot of his limitations. He was kind of forced into a situation that he *knew* he wasn't cut out for, and it cost him.

 

Think of Ned as "Stannis lite". Only not as ruthless.

[Twilight]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

Some flaws are cool - everyone has them. I just don't want the flaws taking over EVERYONE. Ned had issues, for sure, but he really did know a lot of his limitations. He was kind of forced into a situation that he *knew* he wasn't cut out for, and it cost him.

 

Think of Ned as "Stannis lite". Only not as ruthless.

 

And judging by Stannis' actions during book 2, somewhat brighter too. Apparently all of Westeros knew he that if he sailed into King's Landing near the beginning of the conflict he'd take the city and the Lannisters there would be boned, including Tyrion and Cersei Lannister so naturally Stannis does something else.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

On further consideration after finishing the second book' date=' I think a better way to capture the spirit of the novels would be to give the conniving unlikable characters a certain amount of luck, whereas the likable and honourable people recieve a certain amount of unluck.[/quote']Yeah, like about 25,000d6 of Unluck if the character has a shred of decency in them. The sad part is, I read book 1 and I was pretty well entertained by how the author writes. I was put off by how everybody who seemed decent or was likeable, was maimed or killed in some horrible fashion. I stopped reading at that point and took the two books that I had down to the used book store and picked up something else.

 

The fact that the author could make me angry by where he carried the story tells me that he is good at what he does. The fact that he glorifies the "bad" guys (IMO) is deplorable and I refuse to buy into that more than I already have.

 

All that being said, I would love to see SOFAI role-playing game (or something like that) that would go into how to build up court intrigue and international politics in a medieval setting. The mechanics of it interest me greatly, but I'm afraid that I would end up with my head chopped off for being too much of a straight arrow in GRRM's books.

[Cargus10]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

Oh, it really does get better as some of the nasties start getting their own comeuppance in book 3. And it's very satisfying when it happens, indeed. I felt like you did, almost...but the ending of the third book, the last few chapters....holy hell, that rocked.

[Markdoc]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

Oh' date=' it really does get better as some of the nasties start getting their own comeuppance in book 3. And it's very satisfying when it happens, indeed. I felt like you did, almost...but the ending of the third book, the last few chapters....holy hell, that rocked.[/quote']

 

Yep, my feeling is that he gives the bad guys very much the upper hand in the first few books so that the readers a) know that they are seriously nasty and tough, to boot and the readers go "Yeah!" when the bad guys start to bite the dust.

 

cheers, Mark

[Old Man]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

Yeah' date=' like about 25,000d6 of Unluck if the character has a shred of decency in them. The sad part is, I read book 1 and I was pretty well entertained by how the author writes. I was put off by how everybody who seemed decent or was likeable, was maimed or killed in some horrible fashion.[/quote']

 

Honestly, I think that while GRRM is extremely hard on his characters, what he's really doing is brutalizing fantasy tropes. He'll start a subplot down a pretty well-worn path and then, rather suddenly, veer sharply off of it. There was a princess who was very apprehensive about her arranged marriage to a barbarian king; her ultimate reaction was not stereotypical. There was another princess who was ecstatic to be married to the king of her dreams, and she didn't get a fairy tale ending either. Nor did the direwolves, after they were so carefully matched up to the Stark children in the first few chapters of the book; or the orphaned girl who was secretly taught to fence; or the shieldmaiden who turned out to be neither fair nor even that great in combat; nor the rebel prince who took up arms against those who unjustly slew his father; nor the best swordsman in the land.

 

Unpredictability, in a word, is GRRM's hallmark in this series. Not all the surprises are brutal outcomes for the characters, but many are, simply because he's breaking so many cliched fairytale endings. Any author has to be hard on his characters around the middle of the story, to build up dramatic tension and reader sympathy--and the middle of the story is about where we are now.

[Eosin]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

I love the books. Sometimes, I hate them so much that my wife wonders why the book got thrown out the backdoor into the yard. But it is a good kind of hate....

 

I can't wait for book 5 to solve the Breianne mystery, for now I'll have to see what the hell happened to the Onion Knight. I am also dying to see the thing that Clegane has become.

[Twilight]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

I love the books. Sometimes, I hate them so much that my wife wonders why the book got thrown out the backdoor into the yard. But it is a good kind of hate....

 

I can't wait for book 5 to solve the Breianne mystery, for now I'll have to see what the hell happened to the Onion Knight. I am also dying to see the thing that Clegane has become.

 

If I become curious, I'll find some spoilers to look it up in. Reading the books will only get me annoyed, which will in turn make me unpleasent to be around thus annoying my friends. Reading the spoilers will be less annoying.

[Inu]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

Yep, my feeling is that he gives the bad guys very much the upper hand in the first few books so that the readers a) know that they are seriously nasty and tough, to boot and the readers go "Yeah!" when the bad guys start to bite the dust.

 

cheers, Mark

They're also based (quite loosely) on historical events. Perhaps more precisely, inspired by a historical milieu. I don't know how closely it follows it, because I don't know that particular era very well.

 

History gives us some of the most depressing stories ever -- just see everyone who fought Edward I. Admittedly, I'm biased against him because of various historical novels I've read, but hey, the history is biased enough that any claim to know the motivations of people in that era are based more on bias than fact. ^_-

[Inu]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

I've read them all, and am now listening to the audio versions (great for long car or airplane trips). Those rock too.

 

And if you can find them, be sure to read his "Dunk & Egg" stories about Ser Duncan the Tall and Egg his squire, set maybe 150 years before the novels. Good stuff.

The first two Dunk and Egg stories have been comicised and published as a trade paperback: The Hedge Knight, vols I and II.

 

I've read the first, have the second on order (I didn't know it existed until I looked it up just then!) The first is an excellent book. It's not without casualties, but good wins out! More than its fair share of 'F*#$ YEAH!' moments, to borrow a term.

[Markdoc]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

They're also based (quite loosely) on historical events. Perhaps more precisely' date=' inspired by a historical milieu. I don't know how closely it follows it, because I don't know that particular era very well.[/quote']

 

I do. And although the storyline started closely aligned to the Wars of the Roses - even down to geography - it's veered way off topic since.

 

History gives us some of the most depressing stories ever -- just see everyone who fought Edward I. Admittedly' date=' I'm biased against him because of various historical novels I've read, but hey, the history is biased enough that any claim to know the motivations of people in that era are based more on bias than fact. ^_-[/quote']

 

True dat. GRRM simply doesn't want to tell a standard story and he wants it to have some of the grittiness of real history, plus to keep the readers guessing.

 

cheers, Mark

[Maur]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

I love the books. Sometimes, I hate them so much that my wife wonders why the book got thrown out the backdoor into the yard. But it is a good kind of hate....

 

I can't wait for book 5 to solve the Breianne mystery, for now I'll have to see what the hell happened to the Onion Knight. I am also dying to see the thing that Clegane has become.

 

IIRC, book 5 will deal with the other half of the cast that was left out of book 4 due to the way he split the book up. If true, then Catelyn, Brienne, etc... will not be in book 5.

[Old Man]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

The Brienne cliffhanger was a little over the top. Maybe GRRM wants an army of fans willing to die to protect him or something, I don't know. But if anything happens to the guy an awful lot of people are going to be screaming, "What was the word? What was the word?!"

[Eosin]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

They're also based (quite loosely) on historical events. Perhaps more precisely' date=' inspired by a historical milieu. I don't know how closely it follows it, because I don't know that particular era very well.[/quote']

 

I think he does a pretty good job of the rat-bastardry that was the War of the Roses. The thing was full of foul murders, betrayals, and whacked battle outcomes.

 

IIRC' date=' book 5 will deal with the other half of the cast that was left out of book 4 due to the way he split the book up. If true, then Catelyn, Brienne, etc... will not be in book 5.[/quote']

 

Whoops, I meant book 6. I want book 5 but there are some things I really want from book 6.... He'll probably go to the great author in the sky before then like Jordan or Gemmell.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

Whoops, I meant book 6. I want book 5 but there are some things I really want from book 6.... He'll probably go to the great author in the sky before then like Jordan or Gemmell.

 

That's my big fear...he takes So freaking long between books... I'd like to see the series reach a conclusion before he kicks off.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

Let him kick off and let a fan writer finish the series.

 

Who would you choose to finish the series though?

 

QM

[Inu]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

Let him kick off and let a fan writer finish the series.

 

Who would you choose to finish the series though?

Kevin J. Anderson!

 

*throws self into traffic for even suggesting it*

[Maur]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

The Brienne cliffhanger was a little over the top. Maybe GRRM wants an army of fans willing to die to protect him or something' date=' I don't know. But if anything happens to the guy an awful lot of people are going to be screaming, "What was the word? [i']What was the word?![/i]"

 

Which is funny since Brienne, is a GIRL, heheh.

[Cargus10]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

I was a bit disappointed in Book 4 simply because I find the events in the North to be a bit more compelling than those in the South. But it's been a while, and I'm re-reading the series now (or actually, listening. I don't normally do audio books, but this one is very well done and it makes those long air flights go by better). I'm about halfway through book 2 ATM and already wincing at the thought of the upcoming Red Wedding.

[Old Man]

Re: Game of Thrones

 

Kevin J. Anderson!

 

*throws self into traffic for even suggesting it*

 

I was going to rep you for throwing yourself into traffic for that, but I can't.

 

I'm having a hard time thinking of authors that would be appropriate. Gaiman? No. Turtledove? No. Ummm... Anne Rice?