Hero Mods

[Vondy]

Purpose of Thread:

 

To aqcuire feedback on the pros and cons of 4 ideas.

 

Disclaimer:

 

I think Hero works just fine. I don't think it particularly requires change. On the other hand, I like to tinker. Blame Zornwil for reigniting my passion for rebuilding the wheel.

 

Note:

 

I tend to run heroic games these days (I'm supers burnt), and tend to divide experience between perks handed out: favors, contacts, small benefits, etc., and character points.

Consideration #1:

 

1) some players have a hard time Hero's to hit calculation.

2) I like skill centric systems.

3) I like character's combat abilities to be more granular.

 

Proposal #1:

 

Remove CV.

 

Terse Summation:

 

Each Weapon or Weapon Group is a skill, mostly dex based.

Hand to hand is a dex based skll (everyman 8-, or buy at dex+ level).

Dodging can be a Dex based skill (everyman 8-, or buy at dex+ level). Evasion might be a better name.

All attack are skill contests. The greater MoS wins. Ties go to the defender.

All characters are assumed to be dodging attacks they are aware of.

Aborting to dodge (a dodge that takes an action) adds to your dodge roll.

Martial maneuvers add their bonuses to the attack or dodge roll, and damage.

 

Consideration #2:

 

The skill system isn't very granular. Assuming a character with 20 in a stat used to calculate skill rolls, the choice is one character point for 8- or three character points for 13-. There are times where character concept calls for the character to be very good at some skills associated with a particular stat, but only moderately so at other skills associated with the same stat.

 

Proposal #2:

 

(taken from background skills)

 

Allow two methods of skill purchase.

 

Terse Summation:

 

Method 1: non-background skills can purchased at the 11- level for two character points and improved at the cost of one character points. This assumes the above method is in play, which requires a greater outlay of points.

 

or

 

Method 2: non-background skills can still be purchased normally, using the characteristic to derive the roll, at the normal cost structure.

 

Consideration #3:

 

Its the GM's job to micromanage skill progression, or put a system into place.

 

Proposal #3:

 

Implement method of managing progression.

 

Terse Summary:

 

Method 1: If a character uses a skill in the game and has a "critical success" (skill roll/2) they may invest a character point in improving the skill. No matter how many critical successes a character has with a skill during a a given session, they may only invest enough points (e.g., 1 or 2 dependent on progression method) to advance the skill one level at a time.

 

or

 

Method 2: If a character engages in a series of days of study equal to the level to which they attain, they may make a roll. The roll is based on the buy-in level of the skill, not their current skill level. If the roll is a success, they may invest the points needed to advance. The GM may apply penalties on this roll based on external conditions, or bonuses based on expert disquisitions, highly skilled mentors, excellent tools or materials, and the like.

 

Consideration #4:

 

But I can't afford to build a weaponmaster whose really masterful in all weapons if I have to purchase weapons as individal skills!

 

Proposal #4:

 

Good! Waht is best in life? To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to here the lamentations of the players. On the other hand...

 

Terse Summary:

 

To build a weapon master, purchase all weapon skills at the 2/1 method, then add the following skill enhancer:

 

Weapon Master, 3 Points; this skill enhancer is a "stop sign" item. GM permission is required.

[Eosin]

Re: Hero Mods

 

Nice. Those are very reasonible and clear rules.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Hero Mods

 

In proposal 2, would the cost of improving a 3 point non-background skill change to 1 point like for the 11- option? If the cost of improving those skills stay at +2, then I could see little reason (on a long-term basis) for buying the stat-based version.

 

For example, with DEX 20, the two options for buying Stealth would be:

 

2 points for a 11- roll -- 7 points for a 15- -- 8 points for a 16-

3 points for a 13- roll -- 7 points for a 15- -- 9 points for a 16-

 

So, for any skill you're looking at improving, you're probably always further ahead buying the 2 point version.

[CourtFool]

Re: Hero Mods

 

Proposal #1:

 

Note: When I converted from G.U.R.P.S. I really liked the fact that it was possible to be really good at a broad range of things including combat skills.

 

It is much more skill-centric and follows the format of the majority of skills in Hero. Weapon Familiarities are often confusing to new players. Having a simple skill listed with a number seems universally easy to understand.

 

Skill vs. Skill would also be in line with the Hero spirit. At first I did miss this from G.U.R.P.S. However, DCV does somewhat fufill this role. I think it really comes down to do you want more dice rolling or less.

 

Proposal #2:

 

I like this since it keeps things consistent.

 

Proposal #3:

 

I would rather the progression be based on failure. I believe we learn more from our failures than our successes.

 

Note: You could also base it on more than just an 18. Perhaps you gain ¼ pt. for each 'important' failure. Important would mean something other than repeatedly trying a skill with the intent to fail. This would cause rapid increase at lower competancies tapering off around mastery.

 

Proposal #4:

 

I do not really want to go back to G.U.R.P.S. Sorry.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero Mods

 

In proposal 2, would the cost of improving a 3 point non-background skill change to 1 point like for the 11- option? If the cost of improving those skills stay at +2, then I could see little reason (on a long-term basis) for buying the stat-based version.

 

For example, with DEX 20, the two options for buying Stealth would be:

 

2 points for a 11- roll -- 7 points for a 15- -- 8 points for a 16-

3 points for a 13- roll -- 7 points for a 15- -- 9 points for a 16-

 

So, for any skill you're looking at improving, you're probably always further ahead buying the 2 point version.

 

I was pondering this very point. And your right. The only time someone would want to buy a 3/2 level skill would be if they had a high stat, wanted the buy in level, and didn't intend to improve it over time. I'm not sure if thats good, bad, or neutral though.

 

What I really want to do is make all skills 2/1. The normal objection to this is, but my high dex should make me a better acrobat!

 

Ordinarily, I would worry about insane progression with a 2/1 system, but with the added cost of buying individual weapon skills, and the above mentioned limitations on progression (the gamemaster's magesterial "no," aside), I'm not sure there would be a problem.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero Mods

 

Proposal #3:

 

I would rather the progression be based on failure. I believe we learn more from our failures than our successes.

 

Note: You could also base it on more than just an 18. Perhaps you gain ¼ pt. for each 'important' failure. Important would mean something other than repeatedly trying a skill with the intent to fail. This would cause rapid increase at lower competancies tapering off around mastery.

 

I like this idea. Thanks!

 

Proposal #4:

 

I do not really want to go back to G.U.R.P.S. Sorry.

 

I don't really want to include it. I think its broken. Its my idea, but its broken.

[Wolf]

Re: Hero Mods

 

For me, personally, I had a rough time with skills. I tend to run heroic level games, as I’ve never really been a fan of the supers, other than reading them… Personal reasons and off topic. I didn’t like the whole buying skills at 8-, or 11-, despite char’s.

So I took them out, and now use skills in a almost white wolf type of “how are you using the skill†approach. It’s late and I can’t think of an example, however I find that not always does a skill fall under the char that Hero has placed it in.

So this is my “new†system:

Skill Cost Summery

0 points- Char Roll -6

1 point- Char Roll -3

3 points- Char Roll +0

+2 points- +1 to Skill

basing it with a average character your still buying the same thing. However KS’s, PS’s, SS’s, and the rest of the 2/1 progression don’t exists as 2/1.

Everyman still getting essentially a list of free 3 point skills.

In the end I have skill lists that look a little like this:

Navigation, Land +2

K.S.: Military: Army +2

P.S.: Military: Army +2

Bureaucratics +3

Teamwork

Radio, Basic +2

First aid

Tactics: Infantry +2

Camouflage +1

Road march +3

Now you just apply the bonus to the stat you feel fits the circumstance.

I hope I didn’t ramble, and made that make sense.

[CourtFool]

Re: Hero Mods

 

Everyman still getting essentially a list of free 3 point skills.

 

I thought the majority of Everyman skills were 1 point skills. Language and Professional Skill being the two deviants.

 

I like this idea, though. There have been times I thought a particular skill might use a different characteristic. INT and PRE skills can have a lot of overlap in the right circumstance as can STR and DEX skills. What about Intimidation if you want to have it as a skill and not just a PRE attack? STR? PRE? Maybe even INT if you are a lawyer.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hero Mods

 

Proposal #1:

Remove CV.

...

I think it is an interesting idea. I might not want the extra roll of a Skill vs. Skill contest on every attack, so I might just subtract the defender's "bonus" (i.e. difference from 11-) from the attacker's roll (as an optional rule?).

 

Proposal #2:

...

Allow two methods of skill purchase.

...

Nice, but I'd have a +1 cost the same whichever method you choose, just like Background Skills. Otherwise, if I had an average Characteristic, I would never base my Skill on it, and I could very quickly get better at the Skill than someone with a good Characteristic who based their Skill on it. BROKEN!

 

Proposal #3:

Implement method of managing progression.

...

Eh. I think this is best left up to the GM without being involved in the system mechanics at all. It is one that can very much change from genre to genre, for one thing.

 

Proposal #4:

...

To build a weapon master, purchase all weapon skills at the 2/1 method, then add the following....

Nah. To be a weapon master, just buy (C?)SLs. They should be cheaper, I suppose, since raising your skills is a lot cheaper than raising your Dex. Maybe the same cost as PSLs? Actually, I still like Weapon Familiarities, so I would propose actually making the weapon skills similar to the Survival, Systems Operation, Weaponsmithing, etc., Skills. A new Tight Group would still cost 1, a new Broad Group 2, and you have one roll (learning to use one weapon well really does improve your ability with other ones IRL). Maybe you could divide it into two rolls: HTH and Ranged, since there is already quite a discrepency between these modes of combat.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hero Mods

 

I like this idea' date=' though. There have been times I thought a particular skill might use a different characteristic. INT and PRE skills can have a lot of overlap in the right circumstance as can STR and DEX skills. What about Intimidation if you want to have it as a skill and not just a PRE attack? STR? PRE? Maybe even INT if you are a lawyer.[/quote']

Lawyers? Nah. Still Pre. You may be able to quickly pick up the ramifications of new laws and rulings, figure out effective attacks, but if you are an shy introvert, you still aren't going to be able to bully people in court very well ("Ah, er, so, um [wipes forehead] why, ah, why were you going to the hospital if not to see your mother?").

[Lamrok]

Re: Hero Mods

 

Lawyers? Nah. Still Pre. You may be able to quickly pick up the ramifications of new laws and rulings' date=' figure out effective attacks, but if you are an shy introvert, you still aren't going to be able to bully people in court very well ("Ah, er, so, um [wipes forehead'] why, ah, why were you going to the hospital if not to see your mother?").

 

Shy introverts with high INT don't need to go to court. My wife made a very successful go at it just based on her ability to write excellent briefs that often ended things before they got started. Her ability to win cases based on mistakes opponents made in properly filing cases earned her the nickname "Maddog" at her firm. There's nothing that makes a client happier than winning quickly and thoroughly without even considering the merits of a case. That is 100% INT based. 99% of what lawyers do has nothing to do with being in court.

[Lamrok]

Re: Hero Mods

 

Proposal #1.

 

Instead of one roll of the dice plus some simple addition and subbtraction deciding the to-hit, you have two rolls plus simple addition. Over time, it will be slower, and, with two people involved in the math, I'm not sure it is any simpler.

 

On the other hand, it gets more people involved in tossing dice, which may be a good thing, depending on your group (my groups always like to throw dice.)

 

Dex is slightly devalued (figuring in to the equation as +1 per 5 instead of +1 per 3), but that's probably a good thing.

 

Lack of granularity in the skill system reflects trained vs untrained people. This system draws a greater distinction than the regular vanillia system. That might be perfectly correct for some genres or wold-views.

 

Proposal #3

 

I'm not sure this is needed. I think Hero rules should govern "effect" not "real world preocedure." If a player comes up with a reason why he's picking up a new skill, that reason should be looked at and probably accepted.

 

The critical success method seems to model skill progression "backwards" making progression easier as skill goes up.

 

With method two in place, If I were a player, I'd just raise Int instead of buying skill levels for int skills. I'm not sure this is behavior that you necessarily want to encourage.

 

Proposal #4

 

I think this is a good idea if you are using Proposal #1.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hero Mods

 

Shy introverts with high INT don't need to go to court. My wife made a very successful go at it just based on her ability to write excellent briefs that often ended things before they got started. Her ability to win cases based on mistakes opponents made in properly filing cases earned her the nickname "Maddog" at her firm. There's nothing that makes a client happier than winning quickly and thoroughly without even considering the merits of a case. That is 100% INT based. 99% of what lawyers do has nothing to do with being in court.

Oh, I know. So what do they need the Pre attacks for?

[Lamrok]

Re: Hero Mods

 

Oh' date=' I know. So what do they need the Pre attacks for? [/quote']

 

Clients.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hero Mods

 

Clients.

Rep!