CSL silliness.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: llama = the new advocate for English teachers everywhere

 

That was very nationlist of me' date=' wasn't it?[/quote']

 

Almost jingoable, even. Perhaps a touch of hubrisiousness as well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: llama = the new advocate for English teachers everywhere

 

Mark my words' date=' America's legacy will be the English language.[/quote']

 

When did Americans start speaking English? And learn to spell - Armour, Labour...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

My solution would probably be to only allow 5 pt or greater CSLs to trade for DCs' date=' and only if there are no Limitations on them.[/quote']

 

That may be an ideal solution. I see a lot of 2 and 3 point levels in Supers, but rarely a 5 point. Why? Well, if I'm going to spend 10 points to have two levels to get +2 OCV or DCV, why not spend 18, get 6 back on my Speed and boost my DEX 6? For 2 more points, both go up by 2, plus I get better DEX rolls and move up in action order.

 

By allowing 5+ point levels to be used to add damage, these would now serve a purposes and might be uswed by Supers a bit more often.

 

Sure, there's abuse potential - there is with almost everything. And I would agree that "to max damage" isn't likely to have a huge impact when you're throwing 12 dice around anyway.

[OddHat]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

And I would agree that "to max damage" isn't likely to have a huge impact when you're throwing 12 dice around anyway.

 

Maybe. From another POV, 6 points with a normal attack multipower is getting you +1 0 End DC that does no body and effectively requires you to use Standard Effect for part of the power as compared to the 7.5 points you'd normally spend. It's not all that much of a limit, but then its not all that much of a point break either.

[Gary]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Maybe. From another POV' date=' 6 points with a normal attack multipower is getting you +1 0 End DC that does no body and effectively requires you to use Standard Effect for part of the power as compared to the 7.5 points point you'd normally spend. It's not all that much of a limit, but then its not all that much of a point break either.[/quote']

 

 

Don't forget that the point savings is greater than you think. That's because the 2 CSLs can apply to more than one attack. So in a multipower for example, you're probably saving points on each slot as in my original example.

[OddHat]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Don't forget that the point savings is greater than you think. That's because the 2 CSLs can apply to more than one attack. So in a multipower for example' date=' you're probably saving points on each slot as in my original example.[/quote']

 

Your original exaple was incorrect, but we can go with your second example, a 30 point MP with 12 3 point levels for a total of 72 points, versus a 75 point MP.

 

For all applicable slots in a MP, two combat skill levels will add that +1 Standard Effect Does No Body 0 END DC for 6 points, and those 6 points are not subjet to any limits. Adding 7.5 points to the control cost will get you a standard 0 End DC, and those 7.5 points are subject to a price break from any limits on the MP.

 

In a superheroic campaign, using your example, its down to whether "Does No Body" is worth that 3 point savings on 45 points of a MP. If the MP has any limits the 3 point levels adding DC become less of a deal.

 

So, while I do see your point and I'd tell Skill-Levels-Man "No", it doesn't look all that bad.

[Gary]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Your original exaple was incorrect, but we can go with your second example, a 30 point MP with 12 3 point levels for a total of 72 points, versus a 75 point MP.

 

For all applicable slots in a MP, two combat skill levels will add that +1 Standard Effect Does No Body 0 END DC for 6 points, and those 6 points are not subjet to any limits. Adding 7.5 points to the control cost will get you a standard 0 End DC, and those 7.5 points are subject to a price break from any limits on the MP.

 

In a superheroic campaign, using your example, its down to whether "Does No Body" is worth that 3 point savings on 45 points of a MP. If the MP has any limits the 3 point levels adding DC become less of a deal.

 

So, while I do see your point and I'd tell Skill-Levels-Man "No", it doesn't look all that bad.

 

 

That 5 slot multipower costs 45 points plus 36 for the levels for a total of 81. To get the same effect, you need a 75 pt multipower with 1/2 end on each slot, for a total of 75+35=110 pts. And that's with the roundoffs in the second character's favor. Each additional +2 'DC' costs the first character 13.5 pts (5 to add 1 DC to the 30 pt multipower, .5 for each of the 5 slots, and 6 for +2 CSLs). Each additional +2 DC for the second character costs 18.75 points (12.5 for the multipower reserve and 6.25 for 5 slots at 1.25 each).

 

So it's not only 29 pts cheaper, it's almost 40% more expensive to increase damage for the full multipower as opposed to the half multipower plus CSLs.

[OddHat]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

That 5 slot multipower costs 45 points plus 36 for the levels for a total of 81. To get the same effect, you need a 75 pt multipower with 1/2 end on each slot, for a total of 75+35=110 pts. And that's with the roundoffs in the second character's favor. Each additional +2 'DC' costs the first character 13.5 pts (5 to add 1 DC to the 30 pt multipower, .5 for each of the 5 slots, and 6 for +2 CSLs). Each additional +2 DC for the second character costs 18.75 points (12.5 for the multipower reserve and 6.25 for 5 slots at 1.25 each).

 

So it's not only 29 pts cheaper, it's almost 40% more expensive to increase damage for the full multipower as opposed to the half multipower plus CSLs.

 

By the numbers you used above:

Character A pays 81 points.

He now has a 5 slot MP that includes a 9d6+18 EB. The attack does an average of 49.5 Stun and 9 Body, with a minimum of 27 Stun and 0 Body, and a maximum of 54 Stun and 18 Body. The attack costs him 4 END.

 

Character B pays 110 points.

He now has a 5 slot MP that includes a 15d6 EB at 1/2 end cost. His attack does on average 52.5 Stun and 15 Body, with a minimum of 15 stun and 0 Body and a maximum of 90 Stun and 30 Body. His attack costs him 3 END per use.

 

By that example, character B spent more points, but he also does more Stun on average, more Body on average, has a much higher maximum number of Stun and Body he could do, and spends one less END per shot.

 

So, is that worth a 29 point difference? "Maybe."

[Gary]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

By the numbers you used above:

Character A pays 81 points.

He now has a 5 slot MP that includes a 9d6+18 EB. The attack does an average of 49.5 Stun and 9 Body, with a minimum of 27 Stun and 0 Body, and a maximum of 54 Stun and 18 Body. The attack costs him 4 END.

 

Character B pays 110 points.

He now has a 5 slot MP that includes a 15d6 EB at 1/2 end cost. His attack does on average 52.5 Stun and 15 Body, with a minimum of 15 stun and 0 Body and a maximum of 90 Stun and 30 Body. His attack costs him 3 END per use.

 

By that example, character B spent more points, but he also does more Stun on average, more Body on average, has a much higher maximum number of Stun and Body he could do, and spends one less END per shot.

 

So, is that worth a 29 point difference? "Maybe."

 

Actually, it's 6d6+18 for the first multipower vs 12d6 for the second at half end. And both spend 3 End per shot since I corrected for this.

 

So it's 24 min, 39 average, and 54 max vs 12 min, 42 average, and 72 max.

 

I'd take the first one and 29 pts in the bank anytime.

[Sean Waters]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Whatever the technicalities of it all, I think Gary makes a good and interesting point: I'd never thought of using CSLs quite this extremely! Don't think I will be either, but it could make an interesting character: the perfect fighter - massive amounts of skill, relatively puny attacks that can be boosted by the skills. Hmm, maybe i'll try this construct out as a villain and see how it flies...

[OddHat]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Actually, it's 6d6+18 for the first multipower vs 12d6 for the second at half end. And both spend 3 End per shot since I corrected for this.

 

So it's 24 min, 39 average, and 54 max vs 12 min, 42 average, and 72 max.

 

I'd take the first one and 29 pts in the bank anytime.

 

Misread your example. Note that Skill Level Guy is doing on average half as much body (and thus less KB) with each shot as well.

 

Now, say that Skill Level Guy is using a Magic Staff (OAF) for his MP, a -1 limit. He is paying 15 + 5 + 36 = 56 points for his 6d6+18 Stun. Straght MP guy is paying 37+20 = 57 points for his 12d6. Now it's a 1 point difference. Would you want the straight MP or the Skill Level boosted MP?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Not that they're terribly common, but such a construct would be especially vulnerable to drains, etc.

 

"Aha, I've got a 2d6 EB and boost it up with tons of zero-end levels!"

 

"Drain EB 3d6...11."

 

"Crud."

[OddHat]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Whatever the technicalities of it all' date=' I think Gary makes a good and interesting point: I'd never thought of using CSLs quite this extremely! Don't think I will be either, but it could make an interesting character: the perfect fighter - massive amounts of skill, relatively puny attacks that can be boosted by the skills. Hmm, maybe i'll try this construct out as a villain and see how it flies... [/quote']

 

One interesting way of doing this (point efficient as well) is with ranged Martial Arts for your TK MP. You can get some very impressive effects.

[OddHat]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Not that they're terribly common, but such a construct would be especially vulnerable to drains, etc.

 

"Aha, I've got a 2d6 EB and boost it up with tons of zero-end levels!"

 

"Drain EB 3d6...11."

 

"Crud."

 

That 2d6 EB would max out at 12 STUN and 4 Body no matter how many levels you poured into it, under Superheroic campaign rules.

[Gary]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Misread your example. Note that Skill Level Guy is doing on average half as much body (and thus less KB) with each shot as well.

 

Now, say that Skill Level Guy is using a Magic Staff (OAF) for his MP, a -1 limit. He is paying 15 + 5 + 36 = 56 points for his 6d6+18 Stun. Straght MP guy is paying 37+20 = 57 points for his 12d6. Now it's a 1 point difference. Would you want the straight MP or the Skill Level boosted MP?

 

 

Of course it has to be adjusted on a case by case basis, but the general situation favors the CSL guy.

[OddHat]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Of course it has to be adjusted on a case by case basis' date=' but the general situation favors the CSL guy.[/quote']

 

Agreed, in campaigns where frameworks without limits are the norm. Skill Level Guy may be a munchkin, but he's an amateur compared to your End Reserve with Googleplex Charges guy.

[Zed-F]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

I'd have to wonder why MP guy is buying an MP without limits in the first place. The whole point of taking an MP is so you can put limits on the reserve. If you're going to skip that part, a VPP is almost always the better option anyway.

 

And then you can buy your skill levels with the VPP.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Of course it has to be adjusted on a case by case basis' date=' but the general situation favors the CSL guy.[/quote']

 

Until you hit him with an entangle. A 12d6 EB will break a 6d6 6 def (or 4d6 8 DEF) entangle pretty quickly. Good luck getting out with only 6d6 worth of BOD.

 

And what do those skill level DC's add to unusual attacks (ie attacks that donl't do Stun or BOD)? Most 5 slot MP's have a few of those.

 

Now, the Knockback issue may be negligible, but in that case, MultipowerMan should put No Kncokback (-1/4) on his MP. He'll still do BOD. Of course, this implies all his attacks would otherwise do knockback.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

 

Keith "Hey Apple! It's 'Think Different-ly!' " Curtis

 

Responding to the derailment rather than thread topic...

 

The above quote makes me want to start singing a song from the musical 1776.

 

And I didn't know that irregardless was not a word - looked it up at dictionary dot com and read thier entry - it will be purged from my active vocabulary post haste.

[OddHat]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Until you hit him with an entangle. A 12d6 EB will break a 6d6 6 def (or 4d6 8 DEF) entangle pretty quickly. Good luck getting out with only 6d6 worth of BOD.

 

And what do those skill level DC's add to unusual attacks (ie attacks that donl't do Stun or BOD)? Most 5 slot MP's have a few of those.

 

Now, the Knockback issue may be negligible, but in that case, MultipowerMan should put No Kncokback (-1/4) on his MP. He'll still do BOD. Of course, this implies all his attacks would otherwise do knockback.

 

CSL guy is also at a disadvantage when facing automatons, vehicles, force wall using foes, or trying to break through any kind of inanimate barrier. He is also still doing less Stun on average, and the KB issue becomes more meaningful as DCs increase.

 

CSL Guy is pretty much getting points back for a limitation; he may be getting too many points back depending on the campaign.

[Sean Waters]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

CSL guy is also at a disadvantage when facing automatons' date=' vehicles, force wall using foes, or trying to break through any kind of inanimate barrier. He is also still doing less Stun on average, and the KB issue becomes more meaningful as DCs increase.[/quote']

 

I'd see that as quite realistic: the chap who relies on proficiency rather than puissance would be able to take down an opponent far more readily that a wall...

[Sean Waters]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

One interesting way of doing this (point efficient as well) is with ranged Martial Arts for your TK MP. You can get some very impressive effects.

 

That's a very bad idea and it is going to have to be spanked.

 

...and then used in my next campaign...

[Gary]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Until you hit him with an entangle. A 12d6 EB will break a 6d6 6 def (or 4d6 8 DEF) entangle pretty quickly. Good luck getting out with only 6d6 worth of BOD.

 

And what do those skill level DC's add to unusual attacks (ie attacks that donl't do Stun or BOD)? Most 5 slot MP's have a few of those.

 

Now, the Knockback issue may be negligible, but in that case, MultipowerMan should put No Kncokback (-1/4) on his MP. He'll still do BOD. Of course, this implies all his attacks would otherwise do knockback.

 

 

I'd still rather have the extra 29 pts in the bank.

[Dust Raven]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Has anyone else noted that 2 CSLs with a tight group is cheaper than +1 DC 0 End?

 

You mean that... CSLs are actually better than DEX!?!?!??! :D:D:D:D:D Did you finally look up that rule, Gary?

 

You are overlooking a critical rule about using CSLs to add damage. They only add DCs in Heroic campaigns, where the character isn't buying the attack with points. So CSLs become cheaper than... nothing. In Superheroic games, they can be used to add damage (not DC) to attacks, but the attack still cannot do more than the damage it could roll normally so it doesn't truly double the damage.

[prestidigitator]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

In a non-Superheroic campaign, the problem still exists. In a Superheroic campaign, this is no worse off than Standard Effect, and the Character has more points to play with due to his savings. The 'not exceeding maximum effect has almost no relevance' unless the attack is extremely small to begin with.

 

Of course Hugh's solution of not allowing it also works.

I don't know that it is such a problem in Heroic campaigns. There you typically don't pay for the attacks at all (or pay reduced amounts in the case of magic ), so the CSLs are kinda expensive. Besides, other than getting a bigger weapon, Str, Martial Arts, and CSLs are the expected way to increase your damage. Even when we are talking magic/psionics/whatever, you typically don't just arbitrarily construct a new Power; you either spend effort finding one, or spend a lot of time and resources doing, "research," or what have you (at least in the Heroic games in which I have been involved).