CSL silliness.

[Gary]

Character A has a standard 60 pt multipower with 5 ultra slots.

 

60 Multipower reserve

6 u Attack 1

6 u Attack 2

6 u Attack 3

6 u Attack 4

6 u Attack 5

 

He pays 90 pts total, and has 5 attacks at the 12 DC level that costs 6 End per shot. So far so good.

 

Character B builds the following multipower:

 

5 Multipower reserve

1 u Attack A

1 u Attack B

1 u Attack C

1 u Attack D

1 u Attack E

 

He pays 10 pts and then adds +22 CSLs with the multipower for 66 pts. He pays 76 pts total. By using 2 CSLs per DC, he now has 5 attacks at the 12 DC level that costs 1 End per shot, is 14 pts cheaper than Character B's multipower, and more efficiently "spreads" (each DC traded translates to +2 OCV instead of +1 and doesn't cost End).

 

Has anyone else noted that 2 CSLs with a tight group is cheaper than +1 DC 0 End?

[ghost-angel]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

What kind of wine would you serve with this cheese?

[prestidigitator]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

He pays 10 pts and then adds +22 CSLs with the multipower for 66 pts. He pays 76 pts total. By using 2 CSLs per DC, he now has 5 attacks at the 12 DC level that costs 1 End per shot, is 14 pts cheaper than Character B's multipower, and more efficiently "spreads" (each DC traded translates to +2 OCV instead of +1 and doesn't cost End).

 

Has anyone else noted that 2 CSLs with a tight group is cheaper than +1 DC 0 End?

Sure, except that you can only double the DCs of your Attack Powers, so they will be at most 2 DCs. On top of that, you won't be able to increase the damage any further using Str or maneuvers (except using Martial Arts, I think, but that one isn't much cheaper than buying up your attacks).

[Gary]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Sure' date=' except that you can only double the DCs of your Attack Powers, so they will be at most 2 DCs. On top of that, you won't be able to increase the damage any further using Str or maneuvers (except using Martial Arts, I think, but that one isn't much cheaper than buying up your attacks).[/quote']

 

 

Ah, but you're missing the forest for the trees. You can simply have a 30 pt multipower instead with 12 CSLs. 81 total points and you get all the previously mentioned benefits.

 

The basic point is that 2 CSLs is cheaper than +1 DC 0 End and far better and more useful.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Character A has a standard 60 pt multipower with 5 ultra slots.

*snip*

 

He pays 10 pts and then adds +22 CSLs with the multipower for 66 pts. He pays 76 pts total. By using 2 CSLs per DC, he now has 5 attacks at the 12 DC level that costs 1 End per shot, is 14 pts cheaper than Character B's multipower, and more efficiently "spreads" (each DC traded translates to +2 OCV instead of +1 and doesn't cost End).

 

Has anyone else noted that 2 CSLs with a tight group is cheaper than +1 DC 0 End?

 

Thats if your GM is insane enough to allow this.

 

In general, CSL's are only allowed in limited numbers due to CV restrictions. I also use a House Rule that CSL's cannot increase the DC of an attack by more than double the base DC, irregardless of whether its a Hand to Hand attack or a Ranged attack.

[prestidigitator]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Oh, and +2 CSLs with a tight group isn't cheaper than:

1d6 HA; 0 End (+1/2); HA (-1/2) [7 Active, 5 Real]

so don't argue that one (okay, I guess with the Framework the HA might be more expensive, but only by 1 point).

[prestidigitator]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

I also use a House Rule that CSL's cannot increase the DC of an attack by more than double the base DC' date=' irregardless of whether its a Hand to Hand attack or a Ranged attack.[/quote']

That's not a House Rule. It is standard (well, again we could do the whole HA debate, but whatever).

[Gary]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Oh, and +2 CSLs with a tight group isn't cheaper than:

1d6 HA; 0 End (+1/2); HA (-1/2) [7 Active, 5 Real]

so don't argue that one (okay, I guess with the Framework the HA might be more expensive, but only by 1 point).

 

 

It's cheaper than most attacks at 0 End. +1 DC 0 End generally costs 7.5 points. 2 CSLs cost 6 pts and allows you to use them for OCV/DCV if you don't need the damage.

[prestidigitator]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

The basic point is that 2 CSLs is cheaper than +1 DC 0 End and far better and more useful.

That's true. Especially if you are applying it to a couple attacks. What do you think about "tight group" applying to all that stuff in the Multipower, though? I think in a Superheroic game I'd make you just buy those as 5-point CSLs of one type or another (after all tight groups, etc., apply more to a Heroic game that uses the Weapon Familiarity Table).

 

Anyway, this is just sorta the Str argument all over again. You can buy:

+5 Str; 0 End (+1/2); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) [7 Active, 5 Real]

just as easily as the HA I mentioned; it applies to all your HTH attacks, and it is incredibly useful for other things.

[Gary]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

That's true. Especially if you are applying it to a couple attacks. What do you think about "tight group" applying to all that stuff in the Multipower, though? I think in a Superheroic game I'd make you just buy those as 5-point CSLs of one type or another (after all tight groups, etc., apply more to a Heroic game that uses the Weapon Familiarity Table).

 

Anyway, this is just sorta the Str arguement all over again. You can buy:

+5 Str; 0 End (+1/2); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) [7 Active, 5 Real]

just as easily as the HA I mentioned, it applies to all your HTH attacks, and it is incredibly useful for other things.

 

 

Every single official example character pays 3 pts for +1 with a multipower.

 

Did I ever mention that the Str rules were broken?

[ghost-angel]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Thats if your GM is insane enough to allow this.

 

In general, CSL's are only allowed in limited numbers due to CV restrictions. I also use a House Rule that CSL's cannot increase the DC of an attack by more than double the base DC, irregardless of whether its a Hand to Hand attack or a Ranged attack.

 

I have to correct this because I see all over the place:

 

"irregardless" is NOT (repeat NOT) a word.

 

The word is REGARDLESS.

 

yes, I know some dictionaries are adding the incorrect word - that's just proof that a language doesn't alway grow intelligently.

 

anyway, back to the cheese that is this thread. have a nice day.

[prestidigitator]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

I have to correct this because I see all over the place:

 

"irregardless" is NOT (repeat NOT) a word.

 

The word is REGARDLESS.

 

yes, I know some dictionaries are adding the incorrect word - that's just proof that a language doesn't alway grow intelligently.

 

anyway, back to the cheese that is this thread. have a nice day.

Yeah, well I absolutely hate that -ly is being dropped from adverbs, but still find myself slipping and doing it too (you don't walk, "slow." You may be slow, but you walk slowly).

[prestidigitator]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Every single official example character pays 3 pts for +1 with a multipower.

Huh. I guess I've never paid much attention to that aspect of the official examples.

 

Did I ever mention that the Str rules were broken?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

That's true. Especially if you are applying it to a couple attacks. What do you think about "tight group" applying to all that stuff in the Multipower' date=' though? I think in a Superheroic game I'd make you just buy those as 5-point CSLs of one type or another (after all tight groups, etc., apply more to a Heroic game that uses the Weapon Familiarity Table).[/quote']

 

I use 3 point levels in a Supers campaign. However, we've also never permitteed CSL's to increase damage in a Supers campaign. [i thought that was a rule somewhere, but maybe it fel by the wayside an edition or two ago?]

[OddHat]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

I use 3 point levels in a Supers campaign. However' date=' we've also never permitteed CSL's to increase damage in a Supers campaign. [i thought that was a rule somewhere, but maybe it fel by the wayside an edition or two ago?']

 

In a Superheroic campaign, 2 CSLs can only add 3 Stun and no Body to a normal attack, or 1 body to a Killing attack, and the damage done can not exceed the maximum possible damage that could be done by the weapon, as per 5thER p.406. So, CSL Man is going to find himself doing much less body with his normal attacks, and topping off his damage a bit lower than he otherwise would.

[Gary]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

In a Superheroic campaign' date=' 2 CSLs can only add 3 Stun and no Body to a normal attack, or 1 body to a Killing attack, and the damage done can not exceed the maximum possible damage that could be done by the weapon, as per 5thER p.406. So, CSL Man is going to find himself doing much less body with his normal attacks, and topping off his damage a bit lower than he otherwise would.[/quote']

 

In a non-Superheroic campaign, the problem still exists. In a Superheroic campaign, this is no worse off than Standard Effect, and the Character has more points to play with due to his savings. The 'not exceeding maximum effect has almost no relevance' unless the attack is extremely small to begin with.

 

Of course Hugh's solution of not allowing it also works.

[David Blue]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

What kind of wine would you serve with this cheese?

After your gamemaster allowed it, your fellow players would supply the wines.

[OddHat]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

In a non-Superheroic campaign, the problem still exists. In a Superheroic campaign, this is no worse off than Standard Effect, and the Character has more points to play with due to his savings. The 'not exceeding maximum effect has almost no relevance' unless the attack is extremely small to begin with.

 

Of course Hugh's solution of not allowing it also works.

 

Like the extremely small attack in the example you posted?

 

I'd go with Hugh's option of saying "no" as well. It fixes a fair number of potential problems in Hero.

 

By the way, good to see you posting again.

[Gary]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Like the extremely small attack in the example you posted?

 

I'd go with Hugh's option of saying "no" as well. It fixes a fair number of potential problems in Hero.

 

By the way, good to see you posting again.

 

Thanks!

 

My solution would probably be to only allow 5 pt or greater CSLs to trade for DCs, and only if there are no Limitations on them.

[keithcurtis]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

Just say, "no." Balance problem solved.

 

Keith "Hey Apple! It's 'Think Different-ly!' " Curtis

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

I have to correct this because I see all over the place:

 

I see all over the place too. Unless it's dark, or something.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: CSL silliness.

 

The actual issue itself thought - that's part of a problem from adding new abilities to Combat Levels they didn't originally have, yet leaving the price the same. If when they added this ability they had repriced levels to 3, 5, 8, 10, 12 (hey, that's SPD 5!) or somesuch, it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

[CourtFool]

llama = the new advocate for English teachers everywhere

 

yes' date=' I know some dictionaries are adding the incorrect word - that's just proof that a language doesn't alway grow intelligently.[/quote']

 

I have to disagree with you here. English is a living language where you can make up words on the fly and be understood. It adopts new words daily. As a writer and a poet that means options. I think that is growing intelligently as opposed to stagnating.

 

Mark my words, America's legacy will be the English language.

[OddHat]

Re: llama = the new advocate for English teachers everywhere

 

Mark my words' date=' America's legacy will be the English language.[/quote']

 

And England's legacy will be...?

 

I always thought America's legacy would be fat people in spandex with guns.

[CourtFool]

Re: llama = the new advocate for English teachers everywhere

 

And England's legacy will be...?

 

That was very nationlist of me, wasn't it?