Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

[Bloodstone]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

I was watching my Underground DVD the other day' date=' and I noticed that Victor's big sword was purely for dishing out damage. All his martial moves - the highly skilled moves that he could tag and control a faster, stronger opponent with - were unarmed, and he was actually winning with these unarmed moves till Selene intervened.[/quote']

 

psst.. I think you mean Underworld...

[Short Shot]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

RE: The Superhero thing - One requirement would have to be something that lets you deal with multiple opponents. I'll freely admit Gracie style Jujitsu as being great one on one real world but as I understand it one of the things they emphasize is that they don't believe you can fight multiple opponents effectively. To me, to be superheroish, you have to be able to handle bunches of mooks. Equilibrium being one example, where he gets surrounded and 10 seconds later everyone is dead (killed with one of the enemies' swords) and Jackie Chan is another, where he goes on the run and stops periodically just long enough to pick off whoever is closest before going back to being chased.

 

Real world stuff:

I'm with Dauntless and his list. If you want an effective martial art, find someone who has a systematic way of training that includes as many of those things as possible. Oh, and get in shape, as in run fast/run far/climb a fence in shape, not just "I can lift heavy weights" in shape.

 

Couple other comments, just so I can get my name added to the list of Internet Tough Guys:

 

Aikido being useless: Sorry, don't buy it. Japanese Riot Police are taught that. No way am I going to believe the Japanese are going to send RIOT POLICE to train for a year in something that doesn't work. (Reference: Angry White Pajama, by Robert Twigger)

 

Taiji (tai chi)/kung Fu: okay, I admit to being biased here since the school I go to teaches Long Fist and White Crane styles of Kung Fu, and Taiji. I'll freely admit I'm not going to win many fights but I'll bring up two of the senior students from the school for a reference. The first worked security on the local Navy base. He's had occasion work out with a SEAL or two and was able to hold his own and then some, although he admits they weren't going all out and he had about 15 years on the guy. The second worked as a bouncer in a local bar frequented by Navy and Marines, a bar noted for the number of times police had to be called. Again, he was good enough to hold his own against all comers. I asked him what he used the most and his reply was "...mostly taiji".

 

(/rant)

The big problem with taiji is that it's rare that you're going to find a teacher who teaches it as an effective combat art. Mostly it gets taught as "moving meditation". Yeah, right. Moving meditation, that just happens to have joint locks, take downs, escapes, and strikes with hands, feet, elbows, knees, and shoulders. Taiji is more than just doing the form slowly, people! (/Rant off)

 

Er... Sorry about that. Point being that effectiveness has little to do with the style, it's how it's taught and how you train.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

I'm still waiting to see where this Batman's Guide is from...

[Maelstrom]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

Aikido being useless: Sorry' date=' don't buy it. Japanese Riot Police are taught that. No way am I going to believe the Japanese are going to send RIOT POLICE to train for a year in something that doesn't work. (Reference: [u']Angry White Pajama[/u], by Robert Twigger)

 

Weeellll, there's Aikido and then there's Aikido. I assume that Japanese Riot Police are taught a different sort of Aikido than the kind I've run into. I've met black belts in Aikido who can barely tie their shoes. When I was a beginning Escrima student, we were working out in an Aikido dojo. The black belt who loaned us the space grabbed a jo and wanted to spar. I could disarm her -- my instructor, who was more politic, didn't spar.

 

Around my current home town, there are a few Aikido dojos, but they've given up even trying to call themselves 'self-defense' schools.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OqMLzVKAJs

 

I'd stick to Aikijutsu, or better yet, Jae's Sin Moo Hapkido.

 

Oddly enough, though, usually when I play a martial artist, I make up a martial art for him, like Seven Dragon Thunder (my character's name, as well). My first character was a ninja -- he used ninjitsu. Don't judge me, this was the early eighties.

[sinanju]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

My suggestion to anyone who wants to study, is to study what you want. It's all fun. If you want to defend yourself, take a self defense class for the very basic stuff that actually comes in handy, stay fit, and maybe buy a gun.

 

I will recommend (again) Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training and Real World Violence by Sgt. Rory Miller. (Disclaimer, Rory is a friend of mine.)

 

Rory is a martial artist, worked as a bouncer, and until recently was with the county corrections department. He worked the jail, helped organize and train the CERT unit, and stopped counting his official "use of force" reports at 300. He's got a lot of experience with the difference between theory and reality. (He'll also tell you that violence is wa-a-a-y bigger than any single individual will ever experience*--his experience is just that, his experience. YMMV.)

 

Nonetheless, he's got a lot of useful things to say about martial arts training and how it does or does not train you to deal with real world violence. Most concentrate on a very small part of the whole experience (technique) and mostly ignore everything else. Situational awareness, strategy, coping with shock, fear, surprise--and the effects of adrenaline on your mind and body. Styles also evolve over time, sometimes deliberately, sometimes not. They all began with a specific purpose--but some are just sport now. Others purport to be combat styles, but may be totally ineffective in a crunch.

 

That's the fundamental issue. Any martial training system that doesn't routinely end in serious injury, maiming or death has a flaw built into it by design to save wear and tear on students. Which is fine--but if you don't know what that flaw is, and how to train to compensate for it, you're going to be sadly surprised in a real-world violent encounter. There are reports of cops who've fired their guns in a real situation, then stopped to pick up their brass! That's what they did on the range so many times--that's how they responded under pressure. Or martial artists who throw a series of punches that stop just short of hitting their attacker...because they've trained to do just that thousands of times in the dojo.... There are other, less obvious, flaws in all styles--they can be worked around--but you have to know to do that.

 

*He's dealt with knife-wielding attackers five times. As he writes, that might sound like a lot--and for any particular individual it is. But would you want to be trained by a coach who only ever boxed five times? Luck can play as big a part as skill, and what works perfectly in one situation could get you hurt or killed in another.

[Kirby]

Stay on topic.

 

Weeellll' date=' there's Aikido and then there's Aikido. I assume [/quote']

I will recommend (again) Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training and Real World Violence by Sgt. Rory Miller. (Disclaimer, Rory is a friend of mine.)

 

Rory is a martial artist

:yawn: Once again, this becomes a "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" thread.

[David Blue]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

That's the fundamental issue. Any martial training system that doesn't routinely end in serious injury' date=' maiming or death [i']has a flaw built into it by design to save wear and tear on students[/i].

I have another opinion. Both in superhero fiction and in real life the ability to act effectively and with restraint is good. The ultimate extremity of violence is not superiority, and intelligent restraint is not weakness.

 

This is why I don't regard sinanju as the ultimate superhero martial art, or even one of the best: Remo and Chiun don't act with superheroic humanity and restraint, and this is partly built into their style.

 

Arts that emphasize control of violence are superior for a superhero. It can be an obvious kind of control, like in aikido or judo. (And I'm still a Judo Master fan.) Or it can be a subtler kind of control, like with professional wrestlers who are acting like savages but in fact take pride in never injuring their partners. (Brett the Hit Man Hart would be my poster boy here.) Either way, an art that does not routinely end in serious injury, maiming or death is something a superhero needs. A killer art, likely a weapon-based art, is at best a second string to your bow.

[Maelstrom]

Re: Stay on topic.

 

:yawn: Once again' date=' this becomes a "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" thread.[/quote']

 

Oddly enough' date=' though, usually when I play a martial artist, I make up a martial art for him, like Seven Dragon Thunder (my character's name, as well). My first character was a ninja -- he used ninjitsu. Don't judge me, this was the early eighties.[/Quote']

 

I was actually trying to do both. It's just that, when it comes to self-defense, there're so many phonies out there that I try to steer people clear.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Stay on topic.

 

:yawn: Once again' date=' this becomes a "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" thread.[/quote']

 

I'm sorry we're not conforming to your tastes, your majesty, may I show you to another thread then?

[David Blue]

Re: Stay on topic.

 

It's just that' date=' when it comes to self-defense, there're so many phonies out there that I try to steer people clear.[/quote']

When it comes to martial arts, the biggest favor we do our heroes is always assume that they find a real teacher and they're learning a real art, or that it's real the way they are learning it.

 

For roleplaying thrills, you may do some research, or the gamemaster may require you to. You may even get on a false trail. It's normal to go to a phony school or the bad guy's school at first, and only then realize you should be going to this other school.

 

But then you do. For player characters, a serious quest for something that's real and good in the martial arts always leads to success, and I think that's how it should be.

[Short Shot]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

Weeellll, there's Aikido and then there's Aikido.

 

This is very true. I've dealt with 3 different kinds of aikido. One was so fu fu it wasn't funny. The person I was doing the technique on DID throw himself to the floor. It sure wasn't me. If that's all you've got in your area, I can see where you came to your opinion. In the other schools if you didn't do the technique you got hit, or the guy just stood there and looked at you as you tried to throw him.

 

:yawn: Once again' date=' this becomes a "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" thread.[/quote']

 

Sorry, Kirby, I would have left it alone if it was just "This style is awesome!" Any style, I don't care. I just couldn't leave it when something that I know works gets bashed. Again, it's all a matter of teacher and training.

 

I know of two guys who started about the same time under a master. One, as soon as he got his black belt, went and opened his own school, and his school is very popular, and profitable. The other studied another 4, 5 years under the same master, went to seminars, read the classics, and took additional private lessons with people who he believed knew what they were doing and then thought about what he was learning. He's got a small school out in the sticks. Both schools teach the same styles. Want to be the quality of their students differs more than a bit?

 

Arts that emphasize control of violence are superior for a superhero. It can be an obvious kind of control' date=' like in aikido or judo. (And I'm still a Judo Master fan.) Or it can be a subtler kind of control, like with professional wrestlers who are acting like savages but in fact take pride in never injuring their partners. (Brett the Hit Man Hart would be my poster boy here.) Either way, an art that does not routinely end in serious injury, maiming or death is something a superhero needs. A killer art, likely a weapon-based art, is at best a second string to your bow.[/quote']

 

I'll go with this. How often do superheroes trying to deal with people who are mind controlled, or fighting another hero over what turned out to be a misunderstanding? I can just see it. You're team mate, who is also your SO, gets mind controlled into attacking you, or has an illusion placed on them making you THINK they are one of the villains. "Sorry about the arm, hun. But don't worry, they an do amazing things these days reattaching limbs. Or maybe we can get you one of those really cool cybernetic ones! Hun? Honey? C'mon, it was an honest mistake!"

[sinanju]

Re: Stay on topic.

 

:yawn: Once again' date=' this becomes a "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" thread.[/quote']

 

Try reading for comprehension sometime.

[Kirby]

Re: Stay on topic.

 

I'm sorry we're not conforming to your tastes' date=' your majesty, may I show you to another thread then?[/quote']It has nothing to do with my tastes; it has to do with staying on topic and keeping this Champions related, regardless of what arrogance you display.

Try reading for comprehension sometime.

Maybe you should try reading comprehension.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Stay on topic.

 

It has nothing to do with my tastes; it has to do with staying on topic and keeping this Champions related, regardless of what arrogance you display.

Maybe you should try reading comprehension.

 

Few points:

 

One, threads drift, deal with it.

 

Two, we ARE on topic, but apparently, not on YOUR topic. Which is... I'm not sure.

 

Three, whenever people talk about Martial Arts you are bound to see that there are people who have their favourites, and will mention them.

 

Four, there are a LOT of misconceptions out there, and correcting them is NEVER a bad thing.

[Vulcan]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

Weeellll' date=' there's Aikido and then there's Aikido. I assume that Japanese Riot Police are taught a different sort of Aikido than the kind I've run into. I've met black belts in Aikido who can barely tie their shoes. When I was a beginning Escrima student, we were working out in an Aikido dojo. The black belt who loaned us the space grabbed a jo and wanted to spar. I could disarm her -- my instructor, who was more politic, didn't spar.[/quote']

 

To be fair, Aikido is rather lacking in striking and weapon techniques, being first and foremost a defensive style. I can't comment any further that that, though, because I don't know any of the people involved. The black belt might just have been inept, or Maelstrom might be an Escrima GOD.

 

Around my current home town, there are a few Aikido dojos, but they've given up even trying to call themselves 'self-defense' schools.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OqMLzVKAJs

 

I'd stick to Aikijutsu, or better yet, Jae's Sin Moo Hapkido.

 

Oddly enough, though, usually when I play a martial artist, I make up a martial art for him, like Seven Dragon Thunder (my character's name, as well). My first character was a ninja -- he used ninjitsu. Don't judge me, this was the early eighties.

 

To me this looks like a training Kata prettied up and set to music, not a serious demonstration of the art.

 

As to Aikido's suitability as a defensive art... probably depends more on the teacher and the student than the overall art. I know there's some pretty harsh stuff in Aikido. Or maybe that part is Aikijutsu...

 

And what's wrong with playing a ninja? I played one for several years in a New Orleans-based campaign with heavy supernatural overtones. (Nothing like being nervous about hiding in a shadow because something nasty might already be hiding there...)

[Vulcan]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

I have another opinion. Both in superhero fiction and in real life the ability to act effectively and with restraint is good. The ultimate extremity of violence is not superiority, and intelligent restraint is not weakness.

 

This is why I don't regard sinanju as the ultimate superhero martial art, or even one of the best: Remo and Chiun don't act with superheroic humanity and restraint, and this is partly built into their style.

 

Arts that emphasize control of violence are superior for a superhero. It can be an obvious kind of control, like in aikido or judo. (And I'm still a Judo Master fan.) Or it can be a subtler kind of control, like with professional wrestlers who are acting like savages but in fact take pride in never injuring their partners. (Brett the Hit Man Hart would be my poster boy here.) Either way, an art that does not routinely end in serious injury, maiming or death is something a superhero needs. A killer art, likely a weapon-based art, is at best a second string to your bow.

 

Depends on if this is a Golden/Silver age game, or a Bronze/Iron age game.

[Kirby]

Re: Stay on topic.

 

Few points:

 

One, threads drift, deal with it.

 

Two, we ARE on topic, but apparently, not on YOUR topic. Which is... I'm not sure.

 

Three, whenever people talk about Martial Arts you are bound to see that there are people who have their favourites, and will mention them.

 

Four, there are a LOT of misconceptions out there, and correcting them is NEVER a bad thing.

1: Waah

2: Because you're ignorant.

3: Which leads to the "my kung fu is better than yours" prattle of wannabes.

4: You'll never "correct" them because you're simply in a pissing contest.

 

As for "on topic/thread drifiting best Super Hero Martial Art of people using real-world examples to prove their endowment" let me state that the ancient Spartans used pankration. They stopped entering the Olympic pankration competitions because biting and eye-gouging were banned. In other words, the combat form was weakened for games. Every other modern form falls short.

[David Blue]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

Depends on if this is a Golden/Silver age game' date=' or a Bronze/Iron age game.[/quote']

If it's Bronze, Short Shot's points still apply, and likely with greater force, because Moral Lessons are abundant.

 

I'll go with this. How often do superheroes trying to deal with people who are mind controlled' date=' or fighting another hero over what turned out to be a misunderstanding? I can just see it. You're team mate, who is also your SO, gets mind controlled into attacking you, or has an illusion placed on them making you THINK they are one of the villains. "Sorry about the arm, hun. But don't worry, they an do amazing things these days reattaching limbs. Or maybe we can get you one of those really cool cybernetic ones! Hun? Honey? C'mon, it was an honest mistake!"[/quote']

Emancipation Maiden: "Look, Green Environmentalist, our entire hometown is being enslaved by the Wurlitzer being played by that guy who looks exactly like Spiro Agnew!"

(Sinister notes drift from the right wing propaganda device as the dull mass chanting of "Kah-lu-Ta!" changes to the more menacing "Green Or Patriotic! Green Or Patriotic!")

Green Environmentalist: "Great Gaea, Emancipation Maiden, they're being brainwashed to harm the environment! That's us!!"

(Crying from the right wing thought pollution and because under the mind control they are good people and don't want to do this, the people of Little-boxes-and-they-all-are-made-of-ticky-tacky-town roar the extremely evil initials GOP!! and attack.)

 

Cue: lots of heroes inflicting serious injuries, maimings and deaths on the people of Little-boxes-and-they-all-are-made-of-ticky-tacky-town?

 

And that's nothing compared to Bronze Age educative guilt trips on racial issues.

 

Are Sister Resister, Black Leopard and Ebony Electrifier rising up from the Ghet-to on Wings of Hope to attack our heroes in front of a huge crowd of righteously angry African Americans just because they were beguiled by the Establishment Twang in Holy Roller's Voice? Or are they responding to "false flags" attacks by the right wing villain team Excessive Force (Truncheon, Bullwhip, Fire Hose and Attack Dog) disguised as our heroes? Or, and this is where you know the Bronze Age has really arrived, are they right to attack, and are the powers and foci of forfeit for a while for not having done enough for The Black Mahn, and will they soon be adventuring in secret agent all white, with lots of guns and an oriental sage to get their heads straight?

 

Cue: lots of heroes inflicting serious injuries, maimings and deaths on the heroes of the Ghet-to, rising up against what they claim are their oppressors? And by the way, how did Bullwhip's bullwhip suddenly teleport into Super-Surge's hand just when he's facing up against the pulchitrudinous Sister Resister, who's romantic reluctance he's been trying to overcome for years, to the point of losing his cool with frustration?

 

Or (etc.)

[Vulcan]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

I feel I should point out two things for the 'deadly' martial arts.

 

First, even 'hard' forms such as Karate, Savate, and Tae Kwon Do teach - well, since we're talking Champions it would be 'allow' - Legsweep (Takedown for Tae Kwon Do). Always a good option for taking people down without serious injury.

 

Second, be it ever-so-lethal at mazimium power, a martial artist always has the option to use a manuever at less than maximum. Or even (heaven forbid) pull his punch. Or both at once.

 

No matter what style your character uses, there are always options.

[David Blue]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

I would also like to remind you of the well-loved gag where a villain threatens a DNPC or has some other overwhelming blackmail threat going, and forces two heroes to fight each other to the death, likely in a Roman-style arena. The heroes go along, but it's all fake: they're really just getting into position to set the DNPC free and take out the villain.

 

In this scene, a martial art that almost invariably causes serious injury, maiming or death is not ideal. Pro wrestling is ideal.

[Vulcan]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

Thinking about it, look at the Jedi. Lightsaber combat is about as lethal a martial art as it gets. This from the guardians of the Republic.

 

But the training emphasizes using powers and skills in a responsable, restrained manner. Which is not unlike the Buddhist/Zen teachings of many martial arts.

 

(On a tangent: Just finished watching Kung Fu Hustle. Anyone created stats for the "Buddha's Palm Descending From Heaven" technique? Or should I say, anyone else? )

[Vulcan]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

I would also like to remind you of the well-loved gag where a villain threatens a DNPC or has some other overwhelming blackmail threat going, and forces two heroes to fight each other to the death, likely in a Roman-style arena. The heroes go along, but it's all fake: they're really just getting into position to set the DNPC free and take out the villain.

 

In this scene, a martial art that almost invariably causes serious injury, maiming or death is not ideal. Pro wrestling is ideal.

 

 

If two heroes are faking it, what they're using doesn't matter (so long as it lacks the 'Full Power Only' limitation). They can use 1d6 of it at a time on each other all day long.

 

Their acting skills are more important for this scenario than 'does Hero #1 have a 20d6 Killing Strike going all out?':rolleyes: Although, I do admit, when it comes to faking a fight and making it look good, nothing beats pro wrestling.

 

(Not that I'd actually want to fight a pro wrestler for real, mind you. I'd get 'transformed' into an extremely unhappy pretzel!)

[Vulcan]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

Had to go back for this one...

 

I have another opinion. Both in superhero fiction and in real life the ability to act effectively and with restraint is good. The ultimate extremity of violence is not superiority, and intelligent restraint is not weakness.

 

This is why I don't regard sinanju as the ultimate superhero martial art, or even one of the best: Remo and Chiun don't act with superheroic humanity and restraint, and this is partly built into their style.

 

True. But in their defense, Shinanju is an assassin's art. That's the whole point. Everything else is about getting close enough for the one blow - which absolutely must be fatal, first time, every time.

 

Chiun is not a superhero either. Superheros put on costumes and do things for the public good. The Shinanju masters assassinate people to earn gold to feed the home village.

[David Blue]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

I feel I should point out two things for the 'deadly' martial arts.

 

First, even 'hard' forms such as Karate, Savate, and Tae Kwon Do teach - well, since we're talking Champions it would be 'allow' - Legsweep (Takedown for Tae Kwon Do). Always a good option for taking people down without serious injury.

Right. A Martial Throw is a Martial Throw, in game terms. It doesn't matter which art the move is from, it still works the same in game terms.

 

When combat maneuvers are the same in game terms, which they often are, the difference is merely one of roleplaying.

 

I'm highlighting the advantages of the less injurious, less maiming-oriented, less lethal martial arts from the point of view of roleplaying superheroes.

 

Second' date=' be it ever-so-lethal at mazimium power, a martial artist always has the option to use a manuever at less than maximum. Or even (heaven forbid) [i']pull his punch.[/i] Or both at once.

 

No matter what style your character uses, there are always options.

There are always options, but there aren't always equally good options, especially in roleplaying terms. Chiun, the master of sinanju, which is an excellent candidate for the supreme martial art assuming all you want to do is assassinate people, said that a user of the art could be placed at a very dangerous disadvantage if he wasn't going to kill people. The art had to be used in the right way, and like a powerful engine could even be dangerous to its wielder if its proper aim was blocked. Many stories illustrated the idea that once you start doing sinanju, you had better do it right. And doing sinanju right included lethal intent.

 

This likely wouldn't be reflected in a specific style disadvantage, more likely it would just be a roleplaying issue and a hook for sub-plots in scenarios and the occasional complication in a medium sized, otherwise un-threatening fight.

 

To a lesser extent, Sapir's frozen and revived master gladiatior in his book The Far Arena had a similar issue. He was an awesome killer, and could grab a normal kitchen knife and turn an Olympic fencing champion with a sharp foil into bloody chunks, quickly, safely and in such a spectacularly cruel fashion that it would make crowds roar, if the modern world still had crowds like they had in the good old days. Striking to stun: not so much.

 

Again, this would be mostly a roleplaying issue.

 

But, I think those roleplaying issues count, if you're trying to roleplay a superhero.

[Vulcan]

Re: Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts

 

So knowing a hard, agressive style as a super makes you a villian?

 

What about the kid who learned Karate because he idolizes Chuck Norris, then hits adolescence and his mutant powers emerge? Is he doomed to be a villian because he knows Karate, or can he turn it to good by simply not using his full power on strikes?

 

Your arguments would also serve equally well to say that super-strong characters must be villians. "He can break your neck with an uppercut; he must be bad!" Or perhaps he might just tap you in the head for 2d6 damage, rather than using his full strength?