System streamlining?

[Arthur Hansen]

As a gamer that played Champions back about five years ago and Fuzion more recently, I was looking forward to 5th Ed for some simplifying of the ECV/OCV system.

 

I was very disappointed to find out that it wasn't changed at all. Fuzion (and d20) really spoiled me for a system that is very simple on the players end.

 

Maybe I'm just grousing, but I won't play (or run) Palladium games because of this issue either.

 

Or has anyone come out with concise rules for doing that?

 

 

[Vanguard00]

Re: System streamlining?

 

What, specifically, did you have a problem with? The figuring of CVs, the application of such...? Just looking for clarification of issues.

 

By the way, welcome to the boards, ya grouse

[Jhamin]

Re: System streamlining?

 

Well, 5th Rev does have a system where you take 11 + your OCV - What you rolled = DCV you hit.

 

You roll the dice & tell the DM what DCV you hit, that is pretty much just like D&D/D20 where you roll the die, add your modifiers, and tell the DM what AC you hit.

[Arthur Hansen]

Re: System streamlining?

 

Well, 5th Rev does have a system where you take 11 + your OCV - What you rolled = DCV you hit.

 

You roll the dice & tell the DM what DCV you hit, that is pretty much just like D&D/D20 where you roll the die, add your modifiers, and tell the DM what AC you hit.

 

The "minus" what you rolled is what bugs me (and my new players.)

 

Bonus + dice roll = DV is what works best. Even the 55 year old Vampire player can get that easily enough. Even with modifiers.

[RDU Neil]

Re: System streamlining?

 

Well, 5th Rev does have a system where you take 11 + your OCV - What you rolled = DCV you hit.

 

Uh... isn't that the way it's always been done? I mean, like since first edition?

 

What other way is there?

 

I always felt you could have your OCV listed as 11+?... so a current 10 OCV character would be a 21 OCV character on the sheet. Then the rule becomes something simple like ...

 

"Subtract what you roll from your OCV... that's what you hit."

[RDU Neil]

Re: System streamlining?

 

The "minus" what you rolled is what bugs me (and my new players.)

 

Bonus + dice roll = DV is what works best. Even the 55 year old Vampire player can get that easily enough. Even with modifiers.

 

You can do this by have DCV (w/bonuses)+11 as target number.

 

Then it is OCV (w/bonuses) + roll... do you hit?

 

Example: I have a 8 DCV character... you need a 19 to hit me. You have a 10 OCV... you need to roll a 9 or better.

 

This flip flops the "roll low to hit" into roll high... but if you have truly new players, this wouldn't be an issue. High roll is good, low roll bad... for hits and damage. Low roll for Skill checks is still an issue, though.

[rjcurrie]

Re: System streamlining?

 

Uh... isn't that the way it's always been done? I mean, like since first edition?

 

What other way is there?

Yes, it is. But some people see stating it that way as being different from 11+OCV-DCV=what you need to roll.

 

Just like I've seen some see these two statements as being different methods:

• Add 11 to your OCV and subtract your roll. That's the DCV you hit.
  
• Roll under 11+DCV. How much you make it by is the DCV you hit.
  

As for roll-high vs. roll-low mechanics, I prefer systems like Hero where sometimes you need to roll low (skills, to-hit) and sometimes high (damage) because it encourages the use of fair and properly loaded dice. With the popularity of d20 and its all-roll-high philosophy, I'm surprised there isn't someone out there doing a good business from selling loaded d20s. In fact, why would I ever want a fair d20?

 

Rod

[Arthur Hansen]

Re: System streamlining?

 

You can do this by have DCV (w/bonuses)+11 as target number.

 

Then it is OCV (w/bonuses) + roll... do you hit?

 

Example: I have a 8 DCV character... you need a 19 to hit me. You have a 10 OCV... you need to roll a 9 or better.

 

This flip flops the "roll low to hit" into roll high... but if you have truly new players, this wouldn't be an issue. High roll is good, low roll bad... for hits and damage. Low roll for Skill checks is still an issue, though.

 

TSR actually did a study on the math in that (from an education professional) and discovered that addition math is just much easier to process quickly.

 

My gaming group runs from eight month newbie (cutting his teeth on d20) to the aforementioned 55 year old lady (who isn't really willing to put a huge amount of effort into learning "new" systems.)

 

That's why a simpler (stream-lined) system is so important to me as a GM and for my group.

[Sean Waters]

Re: System streamlining?

 

HERESY WARNING HERESY WARNING HERESY WARNING

 

 

Here you go. No official back up, I'm aware of, but roll your 3d6 and add your OCV, trying to equal or beat DCV + 10.

 

It turns the HERO way upside down (HIGH roll to hit = good, low roll = bad) but the probabilities work out the same: on even OCV/DCV you hit on a 10 or more, which is exactly the same as 11 or less in terms of likelihood of success.

 

It is easier for most people to add than subtract and adding 10 is easy anyway. If you pre-calculate and record all your DCVs as (DCV + 10) there is just the one sum to do.

 

You can use exactly the same method for rolling skills, setting the difficulty (10 unless there is a modifier) in advance of the roll. Use CHAR/5 + LEVELS as the skill value you add to the roll.

 

High is good seems much more logical to me, even though I've been playing this game forever. We've used this system and it works fine and tends to be more intuitive for new players, especially if they come from 3rd edition D&D which now uses a similar system.

[RDU Neil]

Re: System streamlining?

 

HERESY WARNING HERESY WARNING HERESY WARNING

 

 

Here you go. No official back up, I'm aware of, but roll your 3d6 and add your OCV, trying to equal or beat DCV + 10.

 

It turns the HERO way upside down (HIGH roll to hit = good, low roll = bad) but the probabilities work out the same: on even OCV/DCV you hit on a 10 or more, which is exactly the same as 11 or less in terms of likelihood of success.

 

It is easier for most people to add than subtract and adding 10 is easy anyway. If you pre-calculate and record all your DCVs as (DCV + 10) there is just the one sum to do.

 

You can use exactly the same method for rolling skills, setting the difficulty (10 unless there is a modifier) in advance of the roll.

 

High is good seems much more logical to me, even though I've been playing this game forever. We've used this system and it works fine and tends to be more intuitive for new players, especially if they come from 3rd edition D&D which now uses a similar system.

 

Same thing I suggested, but I think it should be DCV+11, as I prefer the slight advantage to go toward defense than offense. It's actually one of my pet peeves of the Hero System in that it is too easy to hit. Just personal on that, as I understand why that is good from a certain perspective, but it just doesn't sit right with me.

[RDU Neil]

Re: System streamlining?

 

TSR actually did a study on the math in that (from an education professional) and discovered that addition math is just much easier to process quickly.

 

My gaming group runs from eight month newbie (cutting his teeth on d20) to the aforementioned 55 year old lady (who isn't really willing to put a huge amount of effort into learning "new" systems.)

 

That's why a simpler (stream-lined) system is so important to me as a GM and for my group.

 

So... is this a system that would work for you? You just give the players a number "You have to hit a 20" and they roll three dice and add their OCV. Pretty simple.

 

They can then SORT OF figure out the DCV of the target... subtract 11... but they don't know what other minuses/bonuses (dodging, whatever) you put in there.

 

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

[Arthur Hansen]

Re: System streamlining?

 

Same thing I suggested' date=' but I think it should be DCV+11, as I prefer the slight advantage to go toward defense than offense. It's actually one of my pet peeves of the Hero System in that it is too easy to hit. Just personal on that, as I understand why that is good from a certain perspective, but it just doesn't sit right with me.[/quote']

 

Technically, 10+DV is giving you the benefit of defense. There is on "zero" on your dice, after all.

[Sean Waters]

Re: System streamlining?

 

Same thing I suggested' date=' but I think it should be DCV+11, as I prefer the slight advantage to go toward defense than offense. It's actually one of my pet peeves of the Hero System in that it is too easy to hit. Just personal on that, as I understand why that is good from a certain perspective, but it just doesn't sit right with me.[/quote']

 

 

Indeed, it is the same as your suggestion, but carrying it through to all aspects of the system, including skill rolls. I remember suggesting this years ago on these boards. I still get hate mail.

 

Regarding chances to hit, 3d6 averages 10.5. 11 or less is the same as 10 or more, probability wise, so you'd be changing the chance of hitting doing it your way. If you want to do that I'd still go with DCV + 10 as adding 10 is easier than adding 11, but specify you need to EXCEED the target number, not get EQUAL OR MORE.

 

I tend to vascillate on the 'too easy to hit' thing, but I'm OK with the balance: we are on a bell curve with 3d6 so a little shift in the centre can be quite a few percentage points, and making it more difficult to hit just makes combats last longer.

[Arthur Hansen]

Re: System streamlining?

 

Indeed, it is the same as your suggestion, but carrying it through to all aspects of the system, including skill rolls. I remember suggesting this years ago on these boards. I still get hate mail.

 

Regarding chances to hit, 3d6 averages 10.5. 11 or less is the same as 10 or more, probability wise, so you'd be changing the chance of hitting doing it your way. If you want to do that I'd still go with DCV + 10 as adding 10 is easier than adding 11, but specify you need to EXCEED the target number, not get EQUAL OR MORE.

 

I tend to vascillate on the 'too easy to hit' thing, but I'm OK with the balance: we are on a bell curve with 3d6 so a little shift in the centre can be quite a few percentage points, and making it more difficult to hit just makes combats last longer.

The math is a little wonky on 3d6 (3-18). The base three throws things off a bit. If you average 3.5 on each d6 it's 10.5.

 

11 is rounding/cludging for the benefit of the player. d20 odds are a little easier to figure in some ways 20/2=10.

 

I really wish they had used some of the math simplification ideas in Fuzion while keeping the robust power creation system.

[Doug Limmer]

Re: System streamlining?

 

Someone hit my probability pet peeve ...

 

10- on 3d6 is a 50% chance. Not 10.5-, not 11-. No rounding needed.

11+ on 3d6 is a 50% chance.

 

That is why the average is right in-between at 10.5.

 

The average of a 1d20 roll is also 10.5. Similarly:

10- on 1d20 is a 50% chance.

11+ on a 1d20 is a 50% chance.

 

I've always assumed that Hero gives an extra (12.5%) bonus to hit to the attacker because Hero gives reduction of damage that D&D/d20 doesn't give. Of course, now that I think of it, 12.5% may be too high ...

[sbarron]

Re: System streamlining?

 

I've always assumed that Hero gives an extra (12.5%) bonus to hit to the attacker because Hero gives reduction of damage that D&D/d20 doesn't give. Of course' date=' now that I think of it, 12.5% may be too high ...[/quote']One big complaint is that HERO combat is too slow. Lots of hitting tends to end battles sooner.

[Hierax]

Speeding Up Combat - High To Hit and Damage Rolls At Same Time

 

Yeah, I just use:

3d6 + OCV -10 = DCV Hit

That way the player can just roll and call out what DCV they hit (or less).

 

and roll the damage/effect at the same time as the attack/to hit to save time (just use different dice for the "to hit" and "damage") -- if they miss don't bother counting the damage/effect dice, if they do they are already rolled and you don't have to wait for another roll.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: System streamlining?

 

It's easy. Explain it this way.

 

Did you roll under 11? By how many? Surely, you can subtract from 11.

 

"I rolled an 8. I beat 11 by 3. So I add 3 to my OCV."

 

Add that to your OCV. That's the DCV you hit.

 

Did you roll over 11? By how much? Subtract that from your OCV. That's the DCV you hit.

 

"I rolled a 13. I missed 11 by 2. I subtract 2 from my OCV."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: System streamlining?

 

Did you roll under 11? By how many? Surely' date=' you can subtract from 11.[/quote']

 

If you can't, how did you build a character?

[Sean Waters]

Re: System streamlining?

 

Yes, I can subtract from 11, I can count in base 3 if you want me to, but adding is easier for most people than subtracting.

 

Frankly (as I was trying to express and Doug Limmer stated far more cogently) rolling low and aiming at 11 or less is exactly the same as rolling high and aiming at 10 or more, probability wise. A lot of new players also have to re-adjust to the idea that getting a big total is a bad thing: aiming at 10 or more, it isn't.

 

My advice would be to do whatever comes more naturally and makes play quickest and easiest. I do like the idea of adding to an OCV or Skill Value however because it then gives you a total you can declare more intuitively than having to work out what you rolled under 11 by. And it unifies the combat and skill system mechanics. Bonus!

 

Doug Limmer; 12% seems a lot to me looking at it mathematically, but playing the game, I've found it means very little indeed.

[Sean Waters]

Re: System streamlining?

 

Yes, I can subtract from 11, I can count in base 3 if you want me to, but adding is easier for most people than subtracting.

 

Frankly (as I was trying to express and Doug Limmer stated far more cogently) rolling low and aiming at 11 or less is exactly the same as rolling high and aiming at 10 or more, probability wise. A lot of new players also have to re-adjust to the idea that getting a big total is a bad thing: aiming at 10 or more, it isn't.

 

My advice would be to do whatever comes more naturally and makes play quickest and easiest. I do like the idea of adding to an OCV or Skill Value however because it then gives you a total you can declare more intuitively than having to work out what you rolled under 11 by. And it unifies the combat and skill system mechanics. Bonus!

 

Doug Limmer; 12% seems a lot to me looking at it mathematically, but playing the game, I've found it means very little indeed.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: System streamlining?

 

As long as we're talking heresy , Erol K. Brayburt presented an interesting web essay on converting the standard HERO Attack, Characteristic and Skill Rolls into percentiles, titled Percentage Hero. For most combats this would simply require an attacker to roll within a percentile range. Here's an excerpt from the section on Attack Rolls:

 

Percentage Combat Values are calculated as follows:

 

Defensive Combat Value (DCV): (3 x DEX)%

Offensive Combat Value (OCV): (3 x DEX) + 60%

Offensive Ego Combat Value (OECV): (3 x EGO) + 60%

Defensive Ego Combat Value (DECV): (3 x EGO)%

 

When making an Attack Roll using d100, a successful hit requires the character to roll over the target's DCV but less than or equal to the character's own OCV. Combat Levels and other modifiers apply as usual: Each +1 or -1 modifier in the standard HERO rules gives a 10% modifier in the percentile system.

 

Example: George (OCV 96%) attacks Agent Fred (DCV 30%). George's d100 Attack Roll must be greater than 30 and less than or equal to 96 for the attack to hit.

 

If a character has an OCV greater than 100%, it "wraps around" (and effectively eats into the target's DCV from the bottom).

 

Example: Speedy Sam (OCV 129%) attacks George (DCV 36%). For Sam, rolls of 01-29 count as "101-129." Since rolls of 101-129 are above George's DCV and less than or equal to Sam's OCV, they hit.

 

If both OCV and DCV are above 100%, simply drop the 100's digit from both, i.e. OCV 160% vs DCV 132% simplifies to OCV 60% vs. DCV 32%.

[Agent X]

Re: System streamlining?

 

I would be really cool with changing the hit roll to high roll = good. However, it hasn't been done and it's really not a big deal. Yeah, figuring out hits would probably go 0.2 seconds faster than they do the traditional way but, personally, that 0.2 seconds lost on a roll isn't enough for me to want to add a house rule that requires the whole group to change their mindset.