Robbers on the Road

[Guest taxboy4]

Its a Fantasy Standard that the Heroes get ambushed on the road by robbers / bandits.

 

I have some troubles with this though - the players tend to slaughter them, as most robbers are poor and desparate skill and weapon wise.

 

And when they were attacked by organised robbers, the PC's fought to the death anyway - afterwards when I asked why - they said its because everyone knows when you surrender to robbers and they kill/rape/rob you (not necessarily in that order!!)

 

Has any other GM's had some cool ideas to do with Robbers or any suggestions.

 

p.s. as an aside Goblins are cool monsters and I use them all the time, the tricky little buggers

[tancred]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

Excuse me! We Goblins are NOT monsters.

The fact that some of us resort to a life of crime is no excuse to stereotype the rest of us.

 

 

 

[Guest taxboy4]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

Excuse me! We Goblins are NOT monsters.

The fact that some of us resort to a life of crime is no excuse to stereotype the rest of us.

 

 

Hahaha, a point made is jest but some Truth - I figure Goblins are not evil, and left to thmeselves only attach humans if need food etc....not like those nasty advenuteres who put a slaughter on all Gobbos they can see!!!

[sbarron]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

Has any other GM's had some cool ideas to do with Robbers or any suggestions.

 

It's not very original, but I always like to put at least one charismatic, gentleman rogue in my campaigns.

 

With PCs like yours, I'd take away any opportunity they might have of escaping the first time they meet him and his band. Maybe a pit trap, maybe hanging nets, whatever. But I'd play the rogue as a very likable guy, who only takes half their money or something. And he leaves them their weapons, because he "wouldn't them running afoul of any of the bad sorts in these parts unarmed." Eventually, they run into him again when the tables are turned. Hopefuly after that they have a fun, recurring NPC/ally.

 

Even if you don't go that route, though, you still need to show them it's ok to get captured. They have to trust you as the GM not to kill, rape, and rob their characters. I mean, who's that fun for?

[Guest taxboy4]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

It's not very original, but I always like to put at least one charismatic, gentleman rogue in my campaigns.

 

With PCs like yours, I'd take away any opportunity they might have of escaping the first time they meet him and his band. Maybe a pit trap, maybe hanging nets, whatever. But I'd play the rogue as a very likable guy, who only takes half their money or something. And he leaves them their weapons, because he "wouldn't them running afoul of any of the bad sorts in these parts unarmed." Eventually, they run into him again when the tables are turned. Hopefuly after that they have a fun, recurring NPC/ally.

 

Even if you don't go that route, though, you still need to show them it's ok to get captured. They have to trust you as the GM not to kill, rape, and rob their characters. I mean, who's that fun for?

 

Cheers ears I am totally stealing that idea.

[Curufea]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

I can't see why robbers would ever be worse at combat than the PCs. Robbers spend ALL their time surviving in harsh conditions and killing people. They should have more combat experience and tactics than the PCs, especially for small group strategies - its survival of the fittest after all.

 

It is highly unlikely that any robber group will be "just starting out". A group of peasants don't all decide to leave their village and take up robbery at the same time. You would get one inexperienced amateur robber leaving - they would find an established group, and be recruited (or killed).

 

Every robber group should be on average, better skilled at combat than the PCs, except for the newbie(s) in the gang.

 

PCs may be more experienced at killing monsters - but robbers are much more experienced at killing humans (or whatever the dominant race is).

[Vanguard00]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

Its a Fantasy Standard that the Heroes get ambushed on the road by robbers / bandits.

 

Has any other GM's had some cool ideas to do with Robbers or any suggestions.

 

 

A couple of ways I've handled this in the past:

 

1) At some point while the PCs are in town/city/whatever, have someone mention the robbers "a ways down the road". Make it clear that they'll pretty much leave most folks alone if they can get some coin or valuables from them. They're not rapists or even killers, but they'll fight if pressed. In other words, make sure the PCs know they have options other than 'kill or be killed.'

 

2) Legendary bandit - could be a likeable Robin Hood-esque type, flashy but deadly with a blade, or he could be an ex-gladiator with an axe to grind (literally). Impress upon the heroes that this is someone not to be f***ed with under normal circumstances.

 

2a) Variations on the above: an ex-military commander of some sort (disenchanted with the current regime, perhaps), an ousted noble (knight's training and all that), or even a mage (who says a bandit king can't be a spell-thrower?). Make the bandits organized and capable and take many of the options away from the PC. It can be a little harsh this way but it's also a good way to impress upon them that they're not the baddest in the land.

 

3) Make the bandits ousted commoners, displaced by heavy taxes, the threat of false imprisonment, etc. Maybe they're farmers who banded together after a heavy drought destroyed their crops and they couldn't make ends meet. They're not really evil, they just felt they didn't have much choice left. Play on the sympathy angle and see if the PCs still wanna kill 'em off.

 

4) The bandits are actually controlled by someone, or are cursed into being evil. For example, some people who chance upon long-forgotten ruins are slowly magicked into becoming bandits because they feel they have to. A large portion of the stolen money/goods is left at the ruins as an 'offering'. None of the bandits really knows why they do what they do...they just can't seem to stop. They steal tons of good stuff but always seem on the verge of poverty and sickness, barely staying alive in spite of an otherwise lucrative criminal career. The PCs might end up on a sidequest to vanquish whatever evil it is that's been stealing the men of the region and turning them into bandits.

[Fitz]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

I can't see why robbers would ever be worse at combat than the PCs. Robbers spend ALL their time surviving in harsh conditions and killing people. They should have more combat experience and tactics than the PCs, especially for small group strategies - its survival of the fittest after all.

 

It is highly unlikely that any robber group will be "just starting out". A group of peasants don't all decide to leave their village and take up robbery at the same time. You would get one inexperienced amateur robber leaving - they would find an established group, and be recruited (or killed).

 

Every robber group should be on average, better skilled at combat than the PCs, except for the newbie(s) in the gang.

 

PCs may be more experienced at killing monsters - but robbers are much more experienced at killing humans (or whatever the dominant race is).

 

Are you talking historically here, or just about robbers in your own campaign? I'm conveniently in the middle of rereading The Big Book of Thugs which is a goldmine for thug-related factoids, and a common thread seems to be that gangs

1. don't last long without a charismatic and/or smart boss, and
   
2. don't last long in the face of competent and/or organised opposition
   

In other words, their best prey are the common hoi-polloi who aren't capable of defending themselves agoinst the thugs' own limited fighting skills and ruthlessness, and even then the tactics used tended towards backstabbing and ambush. A normal party of adventurers should be able to kick the crap out of them without raising a sweat unless they're well outnumbered.

[Curufea]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

Not historically no - I can't quote sources for you. But I am thinking of times and places that were more anarchic historically - because most fantasy settings don't worry about policing and shire reeves.

And you are right, for realism there should never (or rarely) be gangs - however it has also said this is a staple of fantasy - therefore those fantasy settings are more anarchic.

 

Be that as it may - there are reasons for gangs to stay together other than a charasmatic leader - racism and prejudice for example. I'm definitely thinking of the fReemade in the New Crobuzon setting for this, but it could also apply to any other setting where there are Distinctive Features and social prejudice against them.

 

With the inculsion of magic - there are other reasons why a gang could survive a long time. Effective hiding spells or movement spells.

 

But it all boils down to - how much effort the locals (or government) is willing to go to, to ensure the safety of the merchant class.

 

Which is entirely dependant on how you run your campaign.

[Lupus]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

Historically, if I understand correctly, the skilled bandit groups that operated for a while didn't tend to operate too close to towns. They went out to the fringes, and survived where patrols weren't common. An area with a strong military presence tended to wipe out local bandit activity, with the exception of 'banditry by opportunity' - which often was untrained, relatively unskilled peasantry. Y'know, starving people trying to feed their kids. Let the players find out they just sentenced a few families to slow and painful death, see how they react the next time they get attacked by bandits.

 

That said, the figure of the 'bandit king' who can evade the authorities is a popular one in fiction. They may be ruthless (kill kill kill!) or they may be enlightened - you get a lot more people surrendering without a fight if you actually LET THEM GO and develop a reputation for this. While history certainly has its Blackbeards (those who are outlaws because they love the killin'), it certainly also had its gentlemen robbers, who liked taking stuff but didn't especially like getting shot at (and so tried to take cargo without a fight whenever possible).

 

I think you need a mix of them in your game. Besides that, it sounds like your players have a problem with losing. Certainly, my players will tend to fight to the death rather than run away... if they still have hit points/BODY/health levels remaining, then they can still fight, dammit! Sometimes, you just can't break them of this.

[Old Man]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

You could always beat the crap out of the PCs but not kill them. Have the bandits take some goodies, patch them up and leave them poor but unharmed..

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

Robbers, like everything else that happens in a game, ought to hapoen for a reason. Random encounters do not make for good roleplaying. Random-seeming encounters that are, in fact, not random at all can.

 

Is there a reason bandits are on this road? If the local government is not as beenvolent as they would claim to be, those "bandits" could in reality be rebels. Or they could have turned to banditry because they wouldn;t make a living any other way -- maybe an army disbanded recently, and soem of the soldiers who know no other trade than fighting were abandoned to fend for themsevles. Maybe the bandits are soliders, supplementing their meager pay.

 

If robbers are picking on avdeturers, who would be the hardest and least rwearding of the targets they COULD pick, maybe it could be a sign that there is no other prey. Or the ambush may itself be a deliberate attempt to harass or misdirect the PCs -- in that case, if the players exterminate the bandits they will never find out what's really going on.

 

Finally, bandits will try to avoid fighting to the death. they want money, but they also want to stay alive. If they can't intimidate a target itno giving them what they want, they are more likely to vanish into the forest than to stand and fight.

[Outsider]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

Most bandits wont go in for openly attacking armed & armored people, unless they have a truly massive numerical advantage. Like ten to one, not just two to one. Even then, they'd probably avoid a stand-up fight. Especially if the victims are far from help.

 

Another idea : An unscrupulous local lord could have an gentleman's agreement with the bandits : He wont turn out the guard and hunt them down (expensive, messy, and people could get hurt) if they dont rob anyone important. And who is important? Well, friends of the local lord, mainly. And you can be his friend too, if you give him something nice

[CourtFool]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

I have some troubles with this though - the players tend to slaughter them' date=' as most robbers are poor and desparate skill and weapon wise.[/quote']

Raise the bandits' DEX.

 

All of the players I have ever known would rather be killed than be captured. In my opinion it is best not to go down that road.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

Raise the bandits' DEX.

 

All of the players I have ever known would rather be killed than be captured. In my opinion it is best not to go down that road.

That must really hamper plotting. Imagine how many classic stories would be derailed if the heores foguth to the death every single time and if nobody took priosners!

 

Unless there is a very good story-based reason to give no quarter, there is no reason every ifhgt has tobe to the death. After all, if no player-characters are ever caputreed, they will never get free tickets to the bad guys' lairs, where they can do a lot more damage than if they'd tried to walk in the front door.

 

Even in wartime, most people will not fight on hopelessly if they're losing. That's why armies take prisoners in the first place. the people in places like the Gitmo detenion camps are their because they had decided not to die fighting pointlessly.

 

bandits, if they see they have a foe that will not roll over and give them what they want, will flee unless the odds are overhwlemingly in thbeir favor. And they really have no reason to kill people who reisst even when they do have overhwelming odds -- bandits are not assassins unless they have been specifically employed to be. Their goal is not killing travelers -- their goal is to separate travelers from their valuables, and if the word gets out that a bandit gang kills everyone they encounters they will either be hunted down by the King's army or will find that everyone is avoiding their territory otu of fear -- both of which are very bad for business.

 

Not everyone always behaves rationally, but everyone has motivations for what they do. It is bad GMing to place foes in a given location only so that the players can kill them unthinkingly, just as it bad GMing to set up a situation in which the PCs' only option is to fight and fight until they are exterminated.

[Fitz]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

...they really have no reason to kill people who reisst even when they do have overhwelming odds -- bandits are not assassins unless they have been specifically employed to be. Their goal is not killing travelers -- their goal is to separate travelers from their valuables' date=' and if the word gets out that a bandit gang kills everyone they encounters they will either be hunted down by the King's army or will find that everyone is avoiding their territory otu of fear -- both of which are very bad for business.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure that's true. Historically, the penalty for murder was no worse than that for banditry, so there's no incentive (besides compassion) not to kill their victims. And there is a definite incentive to do so -- dead people aren't going to be identifying you as a bandit. In medieval times, bandits were, by and large, a murderous bunch; the Robin Hood "bandit with a heart of gold" type was pretty much purely fiction.

[CourtFool]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

That must really hamper plotting. Imagine how many classic stories would be derailed if the heores foguth to the death every single time and if nobody took priosners!

Yes, it hampers plotting. However, literature does not always convert well to gaming.

 

Real people fear for their lives and have an instinct for self preservation. Characters...not so much. I will conceed that I have not been blessed with shining examples of role playing gamers but not everyone gets the concept that role playing is not about 'winning'.

 

To the people I have gamed with capture = losing. Not only that, but a humiliating loss. Better to go out in a blaze of glory. I do not agree with this philosophy, but it has been my experience.

 

You are absolutely right that combat should not be the only option. As a GM I try to leave other options open for my players. Along the same vein as being captured, fleeing seems to be an equally humiliating loss.

 

I read an article once that explained why players seem to prefer combat over other alternatives. I wish I could remember where I had read it. The article explained that most systems detail combat so that players have a very good grasp of what they can and can not do. On the other hand, even the most skill intensive systems do not provide as much detail for skills. Players have a pretty good idea of what their chance to hit is, how much damage they are going to deal out and what it will take to bring the current 'target' down. However, it is a little fuzzy just how effective that Persuasion skill will be against the night watch.

 

This is not to mention the many gamers who are just looking for an outlet to release their daily frustrations through. I believe you and I agree in theory. What I am saying is that practical application is an entirely different beast.

 

If you know not thyself nor thy players, thy gaming will be unsucessful. If you know thyself but know not thy players, thy gaming will be sucessful half the time. If you know thyself and thy players, thy gaming will always be sucessful. (My version of Sun Tzu)

[Outsider]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

My problem is that my players never surrender except to the NPCs that are insane, sadistic monsters.

 

The constable who wants to arrest them for public intoxication they fight to the death. The Insane Overlord who they've seen hack an innocent man to gobbets during a delusional episode, they readily give themselves up to

[CBikle]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

With PCs like yours, I'd take away any opportunity they might have of escaping the first time they meet him and his band. Maybe a pit trap, maybe hanging nets, whatever.

 

Ack. I hate that style of GMing. Sorry, but that smacks of bad D&D.

 

It largely depends on the party; If it's largely made up of thieves, odds are they will avoid confrontation. If the group is largely made up of war-clerics, barbarians and ex-soldiers, there's a good chance they'll fight.

 

I think the "Robin Hood" scenario can work, but I think it's doomed from the start if the GM ties it in to high-handed railroading (sometimes mistakenly referred to as "storytelling".). You really have to subtle with these types of

adventures.

 

Other alternatives might be:

- Maybe the robbers have the same enemy as the PCs (which in theory would encourage dialogue).

 

- Perhaps everybody recognizes each other's Rep, which might encourage dialogue.

 

- Perhaps after introductions are made, the evil sheriff's thugs/guards arrive to arrest everyone or a big monster or hunted shows up ("Egads ! it's a shambling cube of Eye-Pudding or Neo Eye-Pudding !") encouraging a temporary truce.

 

And the robbers can always surrender or back down too. Why are the PCs wrong in defending themselves and belongings ?

[Outsider]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

They arent always wrong in defending themselves or their belongings, but sometimes it seems like they take on impossible odds, relying on the fact that they are PCs to get them through.

 

"Oh, sure the odds are impossible... but the GM wouldnt kill us without having our player's approval and our deaths having some grand tragic consequnece, because then we'd spend the next 3 gaming sessions in 'recrimination phase' and that would be really unpleasant for him. So... we can do stupid things, and each one that doesnt result in our deaths will just spur us to do something even more stupid! HAHAHA!"

 

Thats an extreme example, but even the early stages of it are best avoided. Hard to do if your players identify with their characters too much, or play them as idealized fantasy versions of themselves. Kind of a tightrope there.

[Guest taxboy4]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

They arent always wrong in defending themselves or their belongings, but sometimes it seems like they take on impossible odds, relying on the fact that they are PCs to get them through.

 

"Oh, sure the odds are impossible... but the GM wouldnt kill us without having our player's approval and our deaths having some grand tragic consequnece, because then we'd spend the next 3 gaming sessions in 'recrimination phase' and that would be really unpleasant for him. So... we can do stupid things, and each one that doesnt result in our deaths will just spur us to do something even more stupid! HAHAHA!"

 

Thats an extreme example, but even the early stages of it are best avoided. Hard to do if your players identify with their characters too much, or play them as idealized fantasy versions of themselves. Kind of a tightrope there.

 

Actually I have had this prob before, usually only with one Character / playerat a time though.

 

Thank goodness with using HERO's fully optioned combat system I simply cheated and gave him a nasty head injury straight away that translated into lost stats - permenantly.

 

Not death but a lesson well learned...

 

[CBikle]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

They arent always wrong in defending themselves or their belongings, but sometimes it seems like they take on impossible odds, relying on the fact that they are PCs to get them through.

 

"Oh, sure the odds are impossible... but the GM wouldnt kill us without having our player's approval and our deaths having some grand tragic consequnece, because then we'd spend the next 3 gaming sessions in 'recrimination phase' and that would be really unpleasant for him. So... we can do stupid things, and each one that doesnt result in our deaths will just spur us to do something even more stupid! HAHAHA!"

 

Thats an extreme example, but even the early stages of it are best avoided. Hard to do if your players identify with their characters too much, or play them as idealized fantasy versions of themselves. Kind of a tightrope there.

In general, you're right.

 

However, unless the "gentleman bandit" angle is played up, the PCs are relying on the GM to not have them murdered or sold into slavery (which is unrealistic for the fantasy genre).

[Outsider]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

Actually, being sold into slavery is not unheard of in the fantasy genre. Conan the Prepubescent was sold into slavery, for example. In a less well known example (but much more recently read by me, online at the Baen Free Library) the title character in The Lion of Farside by John Dalmas spent some time enslaved after being captured. Being broken and staying a slave forever more, though, is a genre violation. It would also not necessarily even be 'realistic' in that most PCs are superb physical or mental specimens with extreme skillsets, and it would be highly wasteful to just break or cripple them.

[CBikle]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

[QUOTE]Actually, being sold into slavery is not unheard of in the fantasy genre. Conan the Prepubescent was sold into slavery, for example. In a less well known example (but much more recently read by me, online at the Baen Free Library) the title character in The Lion of Farside by John Dalmas spent some time enslaved after being captured. Being broken and staying a slave forever more, though, is a genre violation. It would also not necessarily even be 'realistic' in that most PCs are superb physical or mental specimens with extreme skillsets, and it would be highly wasteful to just break or cripple them.

 

That's why many PCs would rather try to fight off the bandits mentioned in this thread(even with insurmountable odds against them) rather than surrender and risk death or

slavery.

 

Thinking further on this, I think the reason that the "Robin Hood scenario" often is a disaster is because it inherently allows for three extremes players hate:

 

1 Being railroaded into an adventure.

2 Getting your stuff taken away.

3 Potential confrontation with the GM's pet Super-NPC fighter type who'll easily kick

your ass and be a smartass while doing it.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Robbers on the Road

 

Its a Fantasy Standard that the Heroes get ambushed on the road by robbers / bandits.

 

I have some troubles with this though - the players tend to slaughter them, as most robbers are poor and desparate skill and weapon wise.

 

And when they were attacked by organised robbers, the PC's fought to the death anyway - afterwards when I asked why - they said its because everyone knows when you surrender to robbers and they kill/rape/rob you (not necessarily in that order!!)

 

Has any other GM's had some cool ideas to do with Robbers or any suggestions.

 

p.s. as an aside Goblins are cool monsters and I use them all the time, the tricky little buggers

 

 

A little bit of magic (or just talent) and planning goes a long way. Throwing one's voice is a great way to force the PC to look off in a different direction just long enough to dive into the woods and hide (Concealment & Stealth with lots of bonuses for due to lots of foliage.) In high magic worlds, some of the goblins may just be illusions to draw attacks from the heroes. Potions that make thick smoke can make it hard to fight and allow goblins to escape, of course, the heroes might learn how to make goblin smoke potions themselves, but they'll remember who they learned it from.

 

Traps are a fun one. The smallest goblins and kobolds are remarkable dangerously with traps and gives something to worry about. "So, you're running full speed after the goblin, make a Perception roll at minus 5. Oh, you failed, ok, you fail to notice the trip wire. " Common traps is a net trap that captures them in a net that gets pulled off the ground. The swinging tree that bonks them for 6d6 (or just knocks them down). Or maybe the wire just trips them and they hit the ground hard.