badger3k Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: D & D Diatribe The Istari are the names of the five Maiar who came from the West in the guise of old men. The Maiar are lesser powers, demigods at best, compared to the Valar. One of the Maiar married the High King of the Elves of Middle Earth in the First Age, and they had a child, Luthien. As for the Elves, Tolkien's Elves aren't the same as D&D Elves and in some ways could also be treated as a lesser race of Outsiders. They're immortal beings whose home "plane" as it were was Valinor. Slain Elves go to the Halls of the Dead but they can be brought back if the Valar think there is merit to it. Glorfindel, who in the books was the one who brought Frodo to Rivendale, actually was slain in the First Age fighting a Balrog (which I believe he managed to take out in the process). He came back with the Istari from the West. Ah well, gotta go back eventually and reread that stuff - it's been more years than I like to remember. Forgot the elves=outsider from the stories - although if they chose mortality, I think they would lose that status, which is what was in the back of my mind. I think I equated being in Middle Earth in the Third Age (IIRC) with being mortal, but most didn't choose until after the Quest was over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug McCrae Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: D & D Diatribe I love 3rd ed D&D. Don't think it's munchkin at all, though it depends what you mean by that. IMO it's the most balanced system I've ever played. The one drawback is that spellcasters rule the roost from about 10th level onwards (and suck at low levels) but that's always been the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: D & D Diatribe Ah well' date=' gotta go back eventually and reread that stuff - it's been more years than I like to remember. Forgot the elves=outsider from the stories - although if they chose mortality, I think they would lose that status, which is what was in the back of my mind. I think I equated being in Middle Earth in the Third Age (IIRC) with being mortal, but most didn't choose until after the Quest was over.[/quote'] Nope. Only those with mixed human/Elven blood got to make that choice. The rest of the Elves never got to make a choice about whether to become mortal or not. Though there is one case of a human who supposedly became an Elf (married an Elf, headed into the West). Legolas, for example, got zero choice in the matter. Or for that matter whether to remain in Middle Earth. He heard the sea and got the longing to head West. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: D & D Diatribe Are Dwarfs immortal in Middle Earth? It's implied they're long lived, but I can't think offhand of any reference to them dieing of old age. Technically Orcs are also immortal - as they come from Elves. But their lifestyle inclines them to being killed at a young age (usually by another Orc). But again, there is no definite writing on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: D & D Diatribe Are Dwarfs immortal in Middle Earth? It's implied they're long lived, but I can't think offhand of any reference to them dieing of old age. Technically Orcs are also immortal - as they come from Elves. But their lifestyle inclines them to being killed at a young age (usually by another Orc). But again, there is no definite writing on this. Dwarves are mortal, just long lived by human standards. There is no indication that Orcs are immortal. The fact that they were formed from Elves that Morgoth messed with does not mean anything. It is entirely possible they have degenerated so far as to be mortal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupus Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: D & D Diatribe Ah well' date=' gotta go back eventually and reread that stuff - it's been more years than I like to remember. Forgot the elves=outsider from the stories - although if they chose mortality, I think they would lose that status, which is what was in the back of my mind. I think I equated being in Middle Earth in the Third Age (IIRC) with being mortal, but most didn't choose until after the Quest was over.[/quote'] The High Elves are outsiders, anyway - those who have actually seen Valinor and returned. The whole Elven family tree is incredibly twisted. There are a good half-dozen 'breeds' of elf, generally separated by a) whether they followed Orome to Aman, and how far they made it along the journey. The three groups who actually made it (Vanyar, Noldor and Lindor) are the High Elves. Of these, the only ones we see in LotR are the Noldor - such as Glorfindel and Galadriel. All elves, however, return to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor upon death. So they don't die in the same way as humans. Then those who sail west, they're effectively reaching the elven afterlife WITHOUT dying. And those who stayed in Middle-Earth, according to Tolkein, eventually devolved into the fairies and brownies that live in legends today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupus Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: D & D Diatribe Dwarves are mortal, just long lived by human standards. There is no indication that Orcs are immortal. The fact that they were formed from Elves that Morgoth messed with does not mean anything. It is entirely possible they have degenerated so far as to be mortal. Except that the notion of Orcs coming from Elves comes from two sources: one is Treebeard (who Tolkien has said got some things wrong), and the other is a passage from the Silmarillion, which was an unfinished work. Apparently, in notes on his original manuscript, he had written (next to the line about elves being twisted into orcs) 'Change this, Orcs are not Elvish.' So the origin of the orcs is up in the air again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupus Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: D & D Diatribe As for Gandalf's powers: in the very first book we see him (The Hobbit), he kills a whole buncha goblins with a lightning spell (this was when the dwarves and Bilbo got snatched in the goblin cave). Later, he has other displays of power. Firstly, there's his fight against the Ringwraiths on Weathertop, a display of power that Strider and Frodo spotted three days away - they saw lightning dancing around the summit of the hill for an extended period. I can't remember how many Nazgul there were, at the time. It was possibly all nine (four of whom left to chase Gandalf after that, leaving only five to attack Frodo - I think that's how it happened). Later, there's the whole 'beating the Balrog' thing, something which only the mightiest of High Elves had done previously. Yes, the Balrog was probably less powerful than it had been in the First Age (since Morgoth was no longer around). The big difference, of course, was that Gandalf has Narya, the ring of fire. This probably helped him greatly (of course, he still says he was 'burned' by the Balrog). Still, it may not have helped much after they crashed into the water at the bottom of the abyss, since that quenched teh Balrog's fire and it became a creature of slime that tried to grapple with him. When they finally reached the top of the Endless Stair and came out onto the summit of Caradhras, the fight there was highly magical as well - a lot more than just the single lightning-sword trick seen in the movie. Again, brilliant flashes seen all over. So, that's three examples of him using quite significant power. Much more than a couple of levels of wizard. i think the original articles saying 'Gandalf is a level 5 wizard!' were designed to show that MOST of his stunts could be achieved using that - so you can have a lot of fun even in a low-level game. The character, however, was far more than that in power. Those are just the three biggest examples of power (from Gandalf the Grey, not even touching on the White) that I can think of off the top of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badger3k Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: D & D Diatribe I couldn't find the Dork Tower strip online (I thought it was there, but I guess was wrong). They had one that outlined Gandalf's powers. IIRC, he could: 1) toss flaming pinecones at Goblins 2) blow smoke rings 3) make fireworks and 4) He was tough, because he fought the Balrog, who we know was tough, because he fought Gandalf, who we . . . edit - he could also Threaten to turn hobbits into toads, and was rumored to have cause milk to spoil (these are not as sure as the others quoted above). Really funny strip - they end up using Gandalf to smash down doors. This is not the same as the first one, where they burn down the Shire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Re: D & D Diatribe No - you'll always be the same number of *experience points* behind. In D20 that works out to levels behind' date=' since all levels cost the same (a smart change in my opinon), but in every other D&D variant, you'll end up one level behind because of the cheapness of lower levels.[/quote'] Ah, that's clear now, thanks. Yep, multi- and dual-classes in AD&D2 rocked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Re: D & D Diatribe Ah' date=' that's clear now, thanks. Yep, multi- and dual-classes in AD&D2 rocked.[/quote'] Not to mention the (cue ominous music) 2e Bard!!! Nothing in the D&D universe was as scary as a person with a musical instrument.... cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starblaze Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Re: D & D Diatribe Ah' date=' that's clear now, thanks. Yep, multi- and dual-classes in AD&D2 rocked.[/quote'] Gasp, sputter What do you mean? Dual classed humans sucked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Re: D & D Diatribe Gasp, sputter What do you mean? Dual classed humans sucked! Nani? i always played dual-classed humans if I had the stat.s to qualify. As noted before, the way the experience point system worked, you could essentially get a butt-load of levels for the price of your next level. That made them hyper-excellent value. It was especially good for spellcasters to pick up some hit-pointy type levels, but paladin/monk dual class also kicked major butt (combines fighty stuff and sneaky stuff and - best of all - takes no damage from spells/breath weapons, etc on a successful save, with excellent saves AND a saving throw bonus...) Ahem. OK, I admit, munchkin land, but still..... cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Re: D & D Diatribe Munchkinland? Munchkinland? I thought everybody made one of those when they could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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