Combat Maneuvers

[Tywyll]

How would you, at Heroic level, create modified manuvers when using a set of weapons. For instance, the percise duelist who wants to be able to make Armor piercing attacks with any piercing sword he uses. Since he isn't paying for the effect (ie his weapon(s) are free) how would you buy the AP effect to reflect his percise knowledge of getting past armor? I know that with Focus you can take Focus of opportunity, but it doesn't seem fair to make him pay for the manuever in its entirety when he wouldn't normally have to pay to use a weapon.

 

Thanks!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/Class3e/Fighters.shtml

[tkdguy]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

If you have Ninja HERO, you can find a lot of armed styles written up as an EC or a VPP. Maybe you'll find something you like there.

[JMHammer]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

How would you, at Heroic level, create modified manuvers when using a set of weapons. For instance, the percise duelist who wants to be able to make Armor piercing attacks with any piercing sword he uses. Since he isn't paying for the effect (ie his weapon(s) are free) how would you buy the AP effect to reflect his percise knowledge of getting past armor? I know that with Focus you can take Focus of opportunity, but it doesn't seem fair to make him pay for the manuever in its entirety when he wouldn't normally have to pay to use a weapon.

I'm pretty sure there are examples of things like this in the varous 5th Edition books. Here, off the cuff, is one way of doing it:

 

Naked Advantage: Armor Piercing on up to 30 Active Points (+1/2) (15 Active Points), OAF: HTH Thrusting Weapon of Opportunity (-1), Real Cost: 7, END Cost: 1

 

(You could add additional Limitations, such as Only with the Lunge Maneuver (-1/2), or something similar.)

 

This will allow the character to apply the Armor Piercing Advantage to any thrusting weapon he purchases, steals, finds, picks up, or otherwise gets into his hand. The character can use up to 30 Active Points of that weapon's damage while applying the Advantage. He can use a 2d6 sword, for instance, and use all of the sword's damage; when using a 3d6 spear, on the other hand, if he applies more than 2d6 of the weapon's base damage he cannot apply his Armor Piercing.

 

This is a Naked Advantage applied to a weapon the character uses; it is not a combat maneuver. Therefore, the character can use any of the Hero System's standard maneuvers (or purchased martial maneuvers) while using this Naked Advantage.

 

Note that with the Naked Advantage, the character is paying only for the Advantage, not the entire attack. The base damage of the attack, and other Advantages and Limitations, are part of the weapon of opportunity for which the character does not pay character/experience points.

 

As a further example, I've attached a Hero Designer 2 file of an early draft of the Animated Justice League's Green Arrow, which I am working on for another thread. Now, he isn't a Heroic-level character but he has a pair of Naked Advantages (some extra damage and Autofire) which he can apply to bow-and-arrow attacks which are based on weapons of opportunity – although he has defined those Naked Advantages so that they do not apply to the weapons for which he paid points (i.e. his Bow-and-Arrows Multipower).

 

I hope this helped,

John H

 

edit 1: Technically, Green Arrow's added damage on "pick-up" bows is not a Naked Advantage, although the Autofire is. In practice, the extra damage is more like the Deadly Blow Talent.

edit 2: I've attached an HTML file of the Green Arrow character so you can see the "naked" advantage construct if you don't have Hero Designer 2. Remove the .txt suffix in order to view it in your web browser.

[Tywyll]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

JMHammer, Killer Shrike... thanks for the info. I had missed Naked Power advantages (and though I was familiar with them in your website KS, since I couldn't figure out how they worked I didn't understand where you were getting your point cost). I get it now... Thanks a bunch!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

No problem!

[Gunrunner]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

I never liked the idea that you had to pay character points to perform a maneuver with a given effect that theoretically ANYONE should be able to do (even if they rarely succeed). There are a couple ways that anybody with a weapon that has an armor piercing point can make his attacks armor piercing (at least this is how I handle it):

 

First, your character can make a Placed Shot to an unarmored/less armored portion of the body with an OCV penalty. This attack would either bypass armor or would be armor piercing, depending upon location and the coverage of armor.

 

Second, you can create a manuever that anyone with an appropriate weapon can use.

 

Pierce maneuver: OCV -3 / DCV -0, makes any attack with a weapon that has an impaling point Armor Piercing.

 

This will make swords and spears more versatile weapons. The special effect of this attack maneuver can be described as requiring precise thrusting attacks to strike between the joints of armor, or a strong attack to pierce armor with the sharp point of an impaling weapon. This can also be used with axes or polearms that have armor piercing points on the back or top of it's head/tip.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

Second, you can create a manuever that anyone with an appropriate weapon can use.

 

Pierce maneuver: OCV -3 / DCV -0, makes any attack with a weapon that has an impaling point Armor Piercing.

 

This will make swords and spears more versatile weapons. The special effect of this attack maneuver can be described as requiring precise thrusting attacks to strike between the joints of armor, or a strong attack to pierce armor with the sharp point of an impaling weapon. This can also be used with axes or polearms that have armor piercing points on the back or top of it's head/tip.

 

These maneuvers can be designed as 0 point maneuvers based on the UMA rules (as I believe most or all standard maneuvers are). Oncew it costs zero points, it's a pretty short stretch to define them as "everyman maneuvers" or, perhaps, maneuvers that everyone proficient (at least having WF with the weapon in question) may use.

[Markdoc]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

I'm pretty loathe to give people "naked modifier" powers in FH, even though their gear is free. Indeed, this is a pretty good general rule - I'd only allow a naked modifier if that were the only way to do the power in question: not just as a way to save points.

 

To take the example given, to take the naked modifer AP on any thrusting HTH weapon costs 7 points. That makes it more or less equivalent to Find Weakness in effect, but without the need for a skill roll.

 

If a player wanted to start with a magic weapon, he'd have to pay full price, despite the fact that ordinary weapons are free. And he'd only get one. Thus, in my game - although I'd have no problem with a player having this power - he'd have to buy the full power.

 

For example: HKA 2d6 AP (45 Active Points), OAF: HTH Thrusting Weapon of Opportunity (-3/4), Real weapon (-1/4), STR min (-1/2 IIRC...) cannot do more damage than type of weapon used (-1/2) Real Cost: 16 END Cost: 2

 

That costs about the same as Find Weakness with a decent roll. Unlike Find Weakness, it never fails and takes no extra time, but you can't reduce the target to less than than half defences, which seems about right as far as balance goes. The fact that you can counter AP with hardened is the same as countering find weakness with lack of weakness.

 

You might object to the price - 16 points is a fair investment for a FH character - but someone with this power is going to easily put BOD damage through plate armour with anything heavier than a rapier, while his companion's weapons go bling! That can be especially grim if you use hit locations since you double BOD in head and vital locations AFTER armour. A head hit with a normal weapon (say, 2d6 total) will do no BOD on average to a heavily-armoured foe - this power allows a thrust to do 6 BOD off the same attack....

 

He'll put a lot more stun through too since he not only halves their armour but also the nonresistant PD behind it. And with a two handed sword, he will readily make holes in things like Iron Golems that can shrug off most non magical HTH attacks...

 

So beware of making it too cheap!

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

Also, I didnt mention it previously, but I also build some of what it sounds like you want into the weapons directly in my Variant Weapons system.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/armamentsNotes.shtml

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/weaponsChart.shtml

 

But thats off the reservation as far as by-the-book-goes.

[JMHammer]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

Killer Shrike,

 

I enjoyed reading all the material you put together on weapons and armor. I definitely see myself adapting some or all of this for any future fantasy games I will run.

 

I'm curious: You seem to have invested a great deal of effort to develop all those modifiers and characteristics for different weapons, yet you state that in your own game you use a generalized system where the weapon type is just a special effect of the damage being done. I'd very much appreciate it if you could walk me through the logic of that decision.

 

Thanks,

John H

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

Killer Shrike,

 

I enjoyed reading all the material you put together on weapons and armor. I definitely see myself adapting some or all of this for any future fantasy games I will run.

 

I'm curious: You seem to have invested a great deal of effort to develop all those modifiers and characteristics for different weapons, yet you state that in your own game you use a generalized system where the weapon type is just a special effect of the damage being done. I'd very much appreciate it if you could walk me through the logic of that decision.

 

Thanks,

John H

Thanks for the kind words.

 

RE not using it, not sure what you mean exactly. I use that variant weapons chart in my own FH games.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

Ah, you mean this block:

 

"For my own campaign I am opting to use a modified form of the "Equal Damage" variant, described on page 177 of the Fantasy HERO genre book. By this method, weapons are grouped together in general terms and do a set amount of damage based on the size. Weapons become purely a Special Effect for a HKA, RKA, HA, or EB. The classifications in effect in my campaign are:"

 

That section is refering to the variant rules.

 

Underneath the hood, all the weapons of the same size category are the same -- whether you are using an "Axe" or a "Sword" its a HKA that does a certain amount of damage based on it's size.

 

To break up the monotony, I also use the weapon variations. They spice the weapons up a bit, but underneath all the weapons are really just size categories.

[JMHammer]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

Ah! I understand. Thanks for taking the time.

 

John H

[Yesman]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

Find Weakness ?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Combat Maneuvers

 

...snip...

If a player wanted to start with a magic weapon, he'd have to pay full price, despite the fact that ordinary weapons are free. And he'd only get one. Thus, in my game - although I'd have no problem with a player having this power - he'd have to buy the full power.

 

For example: HKA 2d6 AP (45 Active Points), OAF: HTH Thrusting Weapon of Opportunity (-3/4), Real weapon (-1/4), STR min (-1/2 IIRC...) cannot do more damage than type of weapon used (-1/2) Real Cost: 16 END Cost: 2

 

That costs about the same as Find Weakness with a decent roll. Unlike Find Weakness, it never fails and takes no extra time, but you can't reduce the target to less than than half defences, which seems about right as far as balance goes. The fact that you can counter AP with hardened is the same as countering find weakness with lack of weakness.

...

cheers, Mark

I agree in general principle that a naked advantage AP is roughly equivalent to Find Weakness assuming that you are describing both with essentially the same special effect: *A fighter's skill with use of his weapons

There are essentially 3 ways to accomplish this:

 

• Targeting weak hit locations (assuming those rules are being used)
  
• Using Find Weakness
  
• Using a naked advantage AP as described earlier.
  

Each have advantages and disadvantages. Hit location rules can sometimes slow down combat. Find Weakness can too. And naked AP has already been talked about.

 

The real problem IMO is when you have a game where all 3 exist and are being described by essentially the same special effect*.

 

Then you can run into some really confusing issues on what defenses are getting lowered or bypassed since the rules for resistant defenses vs. FW are completely different from those that apply to AP.