Weapon Design: OCV vs RMod

[AaronD]

I'm working on converting real weapons to Hero stats and I'm confused about a certain point. What is the rational for giving some weapons OCV bonuses and others RMod bonuses? Since OCV applies at close range, you would think that pistols (which are fairly easy to aim) would have a higher bonus that large and cumbersome heavy machine guns but HMGs get +2 while pistols get +0. Any thoughts?

 

Aaron

[BNakagawa]

HMGs are pretty much always mounted, and thus gain the benefit of being more stable than a hand held pistol. they're also typically autofire, so the bonus to OCV might be there to reflect the fact that they're spitting out more bullets than a pistol.

 

Given that the listed effective ranges of weapons get out to the hundreds of inches, you're going to have to include levels against range mod penalties if you ever want anyone to hit targets at these ranges with any frequency.

 

$0.02

[TheEmerged]

I'd really have to know more about real world firearms to answer this adequately, but I'll try and steer you in the right direction.

 

A straight OCV modifer means the weapon is simply *more accurate*, at all ranges.

 

A range-mod best represents a weapon that doesn't lose quite as much of its accuracy at long range.

 

Again, I can't help with real-world examples because most of my gun knowledge consists of "Point the open end at enemy and pull the trigger".

[Tugun Master]

Which brings up another important Q:

 

How does HERO System source it's gun performance information? (If indeed it does) And who's the big honcho that processes it and how?

 

Is it you, Steven?

 

Dark Champions was pretty cool, guns wise, but what if we want to make our own guns and don't have access tyo our own gun range and or Big Book o' Gun stats?

[Old Man]

DUDE! Where did you get your avatar?

I vaguely remember it from a video game but don'r remember which one.

[Tugun Master]

Why only my most favourite game from that age...

 

Tiger Road...

 

One of my most loved platform arcade games ever!

 

Lee Wong won me over. And while the game can be pretty hard going, I have been from the first level right through to almost the end before I ran out of coins... about NZ$5 later...

 

*sigh*

 

Those were the days...

 

Now I can't even get a ROM for it off the net. Been a big crackdown on them.

 

If they'd bring back some of these old arcade classic ROMs legally for the PC (and maybe even MAC) I'd buy them!

[AaronD]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

A straight OCV modifer means the weapon is simply *more accurate*, at all ranges.

 

A range-mod best represents a weapon that doesn't lose quite as much of its accuracy at long range.

 

I guess my main problem is that the difference between +OCV and +RMod only matters within 8 hexes or so. This is prime pistol and sub-machine gun range. After that, the Range Modifier cancels out any RMod+OCV anyway. A stable platform is one thing, but they gave machine gunners a pistol for a reason.

 

About Autofire: Yes, it seems that autofire weapons do get a sort of OCV boost. It kinda makes sense since there is no way to "spread" a autofire attack, trading rounds for a bonus to hit. However, they still get this OCV bonus even if firing a single shot.

 

 

Aaron

[Peregrine]

Two words: barrel length.

 

It seems that a longer barrel nets a +OCV, as the round is spun more in a longer barrel, thus producing a straighter flight path due to spin stabilization. Whereas a +RMod represents other features of the weapon that make it more accurate at range than a weapon of similar barrel length.

[AaronD]

Originally posted by Peregrine

Two words: barrel length.

 

It seems that a longer barrel nets a +OCV, as the round is spun more in a longer barrel, thus producing a straighter flight path due to spin stabilization. Whereas a +RMod represents other features of the weapon that make it more accurate at range than a weapon of similar barrel length.

 

I can see barrel length affecting RMod more than OCV. Does the barrel length really affect shots within 8 meters?

 

When taking my concealed carry permit test, I hit 20 /20 at seven yards and 9/10 at fifteen yards. And I had never shot a pistol before then.

 

Aaron

[BNakagawa]

Barrel length is a good way to justify range mod levels, not OCV.

 

Balance and precision are better ways to justify OCV levels.

 

Also, a shotgun with a shorter barrel should have a better OCV (and shorter range) than a shotgun with a longer barrel.

 

Probably the best thing to do is write up a standard grunt, give him a weapon writeup and see if he can perform as expected under standard conditions. Tweak the gun designs as needed to achieve more or less realistic results.

 

$0.02

[Toadmaster]

Based on current and previous hero stats, I found that if you assume a "standard" pistol (4" barrel) is +0 +0 and alternate adding rmod or OCV each time you increase by 1/2 you get a reasonable facsimile of the HERO guns. 2-3" +0 OCV -1 Rmod, 3-4" +0 +0, 4-6" +0 OCV +1 Rmod etc. I have made a chart that details this, I'll try to post it friday.

 

I also have done alot for guns that breaks away from the current standards, one of my biggest changes is that it uses OCV for "quick point and shoot" weapons and Rmod for weapons accurate at range. In this pistols have a +1 or +0 OCV and little or no rmod, long guns may even have a negative OCV but plenty of rmod to cancel the penalty plus some to offset range penalties, I haven't play tested this yet but the idea is that within 8" rifles may actually be less accurate complared to pistols but once youi get out beyond this range they start to leave pistols in the dust, as the weapon gets larger this gets more pronounced, a tank gun came out to have a -6 OCV or so but has +14 rmod or so.

 

I can post this friday as well if you like.

 

I also have a table for dc based on muzzle energy,

a formula for stunx based on a combination of bullet weight, velocity and caliber. I also include the idea of using some levels of piercing (a few points at most) so that rifles are more powerful than pistols even when they do the same damage (once you get to 2d6 there is not much differance between rounds with large variations in power).

 

I can post all of this if there is interest.

[AaronD]

Originally posted by Toadmaster

I can post all of this if there is interest.

 

I'm interested.

 

 

Aaron

[Herolover]

Guns, Guns, Guns

 

First let me tell you about a website you want to check out.

http://www.btrc.net/html/catalog/catmain.html#CORPS

 

The specific products you want are 3G3 and More Guns. It is written with real world numbers, you use joules and other numbers and from there you can derive information for GURPS, HERO, Traveller, and about 4-5 other systesm.

 

3G3 is a great book, available for download, that will allow you to make up many different guns from many time periods. One note though the numbers they come up with for Hero system or very differnt than the numbers Hero give.

 

That said I do not know how or why Hero comes up with the numbers they give. What I can tell you is that OCV is a measure of the guns accuracy which is based upon many different factors including barrel length, bullet type and a couple of other factors.

 

Range modifier is almost directly rated to barrel length.

[BNakagawa]

Back in 83, Firebird Limited published The Armory, Volume 1 (I don't remember ever seeing a volume2) that listed stats for MSPE and Espionage.

 

Of course, back then, the range mod mechanic was entirely different than the 5th ed one, but it's a pretty simple fix.

[Toadmaster]

HERO GUNS

These tables may be used to convert weaponsinto the Hero system. While there are a few changes, by following these stepsyou will create a weapon very close to those in existing Hero systemproducts. 

Barrel (in / cm)		OCV	RMOD	Str Min Mod	Dex Mod	Conceal
Less than 2"	Less than 5cm	+0	-2	-2	-1	-6
2 to 3"	5 to 7.6cm	+0	-1	-1	-1	-5
3 to 4.5"	7.6 to 11.4cm	+0	+0	+0	-2	-4
4.5 to 6"	11.4 to 15.2cm	+0	+1	+1	-2	-3
6 to 9"	15.2 to 23cm	+1	+0	+2	-3	-2
9 to 12"	23 to 30.5cm	+1	+1	+3	-3	-1
12 to 18"	30.5 to 45.7cm	+1	+2	+4	-4	+0
18 to 24"	45.7 to 70cm	+1	+3	+5	-5	+1
24 to 36"	70 to 91.4cm	+1	+4	+6	-6	NC
36 to 48"	91.4 to 121.9cm	+1	+5	+7	-7 (blk)	NC
48 to 72"	121.9 to 182.9cm	+1	+6	+8	-8 (blk)	NC

 

Damage To find HERO damage compare muzzle energy to the table below.
Damage Class	Damage (killing / normal)		Energy (Ft/lbs / Joules)
1	1	1d6	less than 74	less than 100
2	1/2d6	2d6	74 to 110	100 to 150
2+	1d6-1	3d6	110 to 147	150 to 200
3	1d6	3d6	147 to 294	200 to 400
4	1d6+1	4d6	294 to 588	400 to 800
5	1 1/2d6	5d6	588 to 882	800 to 1200
5+	2d6-1	5d6	882 to 1176	1200 to 1600
6	2d6	6d6	1176 to 2352	1600 to 3200
7	2d6+1	7d6	2352 to 4704	3200 to 6400
8	2 1/2d6	8d6	4704 to 7056	6400 to 9600
8+	3d6-1	8d6	7056 to 9408	9600 to 12,800
9	3d6	9d6	9408 to 18,375	12,800 to 25,000
10	3d6+1	10d6	18,375 to 36,750	25,000 to 50,000
11	3 1/2d6	10d6	36,750 to 73,500	50,000 to 100,000

 

Special feature	Effect
Improved accuracy, minor modifications	+1 RMOD
Improved accuracy, major modifications	+2 RMOD
Improved accuracy, designed for accuracy	+3 RMOD
Open bolt	-1 RMOD
Poor quality weapon	-1 RMOD
Shoulder stock	-5 STRMIN
Integral Suppressor	-10% STRMIN
Muzzle Brake	-30% STRMIN
Recoil reduction	-10% STRMIN
Bipod	-10 STRMIN
Autofire	+5 STRMIN
Bulky	1/2 DCV
Arrangement	Most be set up before use

[Toadmaster]

Ok, came out kind of weird but it looks readable, I will post my more drastic revision when I finish converting it to html so the charts will come out.

[Toadmaster]

Ok, here is the more out there version I have been working on, this will give you numbers very differant from what you find in HERO sources, but I think it should work very well for "realistic" games at a cost of some additional work.

 

Damage and stun remain the same, I've added a "piercing" stat, this does not cause extra damage but allows some bullets to penetrate armor better, penetration is based largely on velocity so I have based Piercing on velocity, all things being equal a faster bullet will penetrate better. Finding values for cannons and such is much harder than for small arms so I also have included a method based on energy which doesn't really have an effect until 20mm+.

 

Range mod is affected by barrel length since a longer barrel tends to be more accurate, but velocity also plays a part, the faster a bullet flies the flatter the trajectory will be which makes it easier for the shooter to hit the target, so I have based rmod on barrel length but also have a bonus based on the muzzle velocity of the bullet.

 

I have included a dex mod and concealment mod based on the overall weapon length, longer weapons are harder to hide and are clumsier in tight spaces, the dex mod is only used to determine things like who goes first (if two shooters have the same dex but one has a pistol and one a rifle, the pistol gets to shoot first). These are further modified by add ons like folding stocks.

 

I've included RMOD improvements for highly accurate weapons, the lowest level represents a stock weapon with minor improvements, generally this is just a stock weapon which has been hand fitted and selected at the factory (weapons are fired before shipping, those which shoot better than average are set aside for conversion to target weapons), may also include some changes such as a heavy barrel or a better stock, this could include a weapon like the Colt AR-15 HB, or match grade versions of the M14. The next level includes weapons with fairly substantial improvements, these include all of the abve but also include better quality parts replacing stock parts, adjustible stocks etc. This would include most "sniper" weapons such as the H&K PSG-1 or Tactical versions of high quality hunting rifles such as the US Marine Corps M40A1. The highest level includes weapons which are designed from the ground up as target weapons, this would include many olympic grade .22 rifles or a weapon like the Walther WA-2000, these are not just conversions of existing rifles.

 

Many automatic weapons fire from an open bolt position, this means the bolt is held back until the trigger is pulled, the slight shift resulting from the bolt moving forward before the bullet fires can disrupt the shooters aim, the advantage is these weapons rarely overheat and runaway.

 

There are many differant attempts to reduce a weapons recoil, these typically either use some form of muzzle brake to divert the gasses, resulting in a larger muzzle blast but less recoil, or some form of energy absorption in the stick, this ranges from a simple pad on the shoulder stock to complicated shock absorber systems in the stock. Suppressors slow gasses trying to escape the muzzle and as a result they reduce recoil to some extent as well as lower noise and flash.

 

I like the old ways when AF gave a bonus to hit at the expense of greater recoil, I have included a chart that I am using.

 

Finally I have included a chart for the effects of muzzle blast, these are bonuses for people to see and hear a gun shot, I have based these on DC for simplicity, generally more powerful weapons are louder. If you have ever fired a gun with or without ear protection you know they are loud, for those who like the extra complication I have included suggested levels of flash vs hearing, the level has been bought up one so the explosion loses 5pts per 2" or roughly 1d6 per 1 ". I believe ear plugs are listed in FRED as 3 levels of flash defense which would protect against most rifles.

 

Some suppressed weapons fire supersonic ammo, resulting in a quiet shot but still including a sonic boom from the bullet, for those cases use the sonic crack only row, while this announces a shot it is harder to determine the direction since it is heard as the bullet passes the target, not when the rifle fires.

 

And last is a chart of modifiers to the muzzle blast

 

a muzzle blast suppressor is a small sound suppressor, it does not try to silence the gun, but does result in a significant noise and flash reduction, these are becoming popular with spec ops forces and have been used for years on some short rifles such as the CAR-15. This is not a "flash suppressor" flash suppressors are very misunderstood by most, the intent of flash suppressors is only to direct the flash and sound away from the shooter, it does nothing to hide the gun shot from others. The modifier for a muzzle blast suppressor could also be used for a well made home built suppressor.

 

Sound suppressor and high volume sound suppressors are what many know as "silencers" these represent avaerage quality suppressors, less efficient suppressors are available at lower cost and better performing ones may be had at higher cost. A high volume is simply a suppressor with more volume than the minimum needed, these are nearly twice the diameter and weight but work better and last longer.

 

Some weapons that normally fire supersonic ammunition can also be loaded with subsonic loads without reducing damage, in this case they are slightly queiter than their supersonic versions, this is ignored if a suppressor is used.

 

Most cartridges have an effective barrel length, using the cartridge is a shorter barrel results in a large muzzle flash and more noise, a rifle cartridge in a very short carbine or a pistol are examples as would a .44 magnum fired from a short or snub barrel pistol.

 

Black powder leaves a large smoke cloud when fired, marking where the shot came from, in extreme cases such as a gatling gun or several volleys of fire it might be appropriate to start adding levels of change enviornment infront of the firing position, gatling guns often had spotters to the side to adjust aim since the shooter at the gun could not see the target anymore.

 

 

Well hope this is worthwhile to somebody, I'd be happy to get comments on any of this and remember this is just my thoughts, not trying to foist this on anybody who doesn't like it. The tables follow in the next post.

[Toadmaster]

Damage
DC	Damage (N)	Damage (K)	Energy (Ft/lbs)	Energy (Joules)
1	1d6	1 pip	Up to 74	Up to 100
2	2d6	1/2 d6	75 - 110	101 - 150
2+	2d6	1d6-1	111 - 147	151 - 200
3	3d6	1d6	148 - 294	201 - 400
4	4d6	1d6+1	295 - 588	401 - 800
5	5d6	1 1/2 d6	589 - 882	801 - 1,200
5+	5d6	2d6-1	883 - 1,176	1,201 - 1,600
6	6d6	2d6	1,177 - 2,352	1,601 - 3,200
7	7d6	2d6+1	2,353 - 4,704	3,201 - 6,400
8	8d6	2 1/2 d6	4,705 - 7,056	6,401 - 9,600
8+	8d6	3d6-1	7,057 - 9,408	9,601 - 12,800
9	9d6	3d6	9,409 - 18,375	12,801 - 25,000
10	10d6	3d6+1	18,376 - 36,750	25,001 - 50,000
11	11d6	3 1/2 d6	36,751 - 55,125	50,001 - 75,000
11+	11d6	4d6-1	55,126 - 73,500	75,001 - 100,000
12	12d6	4d6	73,501 - 147,000	100,001 - 200,000
13	13d6	4d6+1	147,001 - 294,000	200,001 - 400,000
14	14d6	4 1/2 d6	294,001 - 441,000	400,001 - 600,000
14+	14d6	5d6-1	441,001 - 588,000	600,001 - 800,000
15	15d6	5d6	588,001 - 1,176,000	800,001 - 1,600,000
16	16d6	5d6+1	1,176,001 - 2,352,000	1,600,001 - 3,200,000
17	17d6	5 1/2 d6	2,352,001 - 3,528,000	3,200,001 - 4,800,000
17+	17d6	6d6-1	3,528,001 - 4,704,000	4,800,001 - 6,400,000
18	18d6	6d6	4,704,001 - 9,408,000	6,400,001 - 12,800,000
19	19d6	6d6+1	9,408,001 - 18,375,000	12,800,001 - 25,000,000
20	20d6	6 1/2 d6	18,375,001 - 27,562,500	25,000,001 - 37,500,000
20+	20d6	7d6-1	27,562,501 - 36,750,000	37,500,001 - 50,000,000
21	21d6	7d6	36,750,001 - 73,500,000	50,000,001 - 100,000,000

 

Stun
Stun mod = bullet weight (Grams) x Caliber (mm) + (Velocity (meters/sec) / 20) Stun mod (20mm +) = Caliber (mm) squared x2
Total	Stun X
0 - 99	+0
100 - 199	+1
200 - 399	+2
400 - 799	+3
800 - 1599	+4
1600 - 3199	+5
3200 - 6399	+6
6400 - 12,799	+7
12,800 - 25,599	+8
25,600 - 51,199	+9
51,200 - 102,400	+10

 

Piercing
Muzzle velocity (Ft/sec)	Muzzle velocity (m/sec)	Levels of piercing
0 - 987	0 - 299	0
988 - 1977	300 - 599	1
1978 - 3977	600 - 1199	2
3978 - 8247	1200 - 2499	3
Muzzle energy (Ft/lbs)	Muzzle energy (Joules)	Levels of piercing
7,350	10,000	2
14,700	20,000	3
29,400	40,000	4
58,800	80,000	5
117,600	160,000	6
235,200	320,000	7
470,400	640,000	8
882,000	1,200,000	9
1,764,000	2,400,000	10
3,528,000	4,800,000	11
7,056,000	9,600,000	12
14,112,000	19,200,000	13

 

Range Mod
Velocity (Ft/sec)	Velocity (m/sec)	Range Mod
0 - 822	0 - 249	+0
823 - 1647	250 - 499	+1
1648 - 2472	500 - 749	+2
2473 - 3297	750 - 999	+3
3298 - 4122	1000 - 1249	+4
4123 - 4947	1250 - 1499	+5
4948 - 5772	1500 - 1749	+6

 

Barrel Length
Barrel (in / cm)		OCV	RMOD	Str Min Mod
Less than 2"	Less than 5cm	+1	-4	-2
2 to 3"	5 to 7.6cm	+1	-3	-1
3 to 4.5"	7.6 to 12cm	+1	-2	+0
4.5 to 6.75"	12 to 17cm	+0	+0	+1
6.75 to 10"	17 to 25cm	+0	+1	+2
10 to 15"	25 to 38cm	-1	+3	+3
15 to 22.5"	38 to 57cm	-2	+5	+4
22.5 to 34"	57 to 86cm	-2	+6	+5
34 to 51"	86 to 130cm	-3	+8	+6
51 to 77"	130 to 196cm	-4	+10	+7
77 to 116"	196 to 300cm	-5	+12	+8

 

Size
Overall length (in / cm)		Concealment	Dex Mod
> 3.9"	>10cm	+0	-1
3.9 - 5.9"	10 - 15cm	+1	-1
6 - 9.9"	15 - 25cm	+2	-2
10 - 15.8"	25 - 40cm	+3	-3
15.9 - 25.6"	40 - 65cm	+4	-4
25.7 - 37.4"	65 - 95cm	+5	-5
37.5 - 53.2"	95 - 135cm	+6	-5
53.3" +	135cm +	+7	-6 (Bulky)

 

Other modifiers
Special feature	Effect
Improved accuracy, minor modifications	+1 RMOD
Improved accuracy, major modifications	+2 RMOD
Improved accuracy, engineered for accuracy	+3 RMOD
Open bolt	-1 RMOD
Poor quality weapon	-1 RMOD
Shoulder stock	-5 STRMIN
Folding stock	Reduce overall length 1 level when folded
Detachable stock (pistol)	-5 STRMIN, adds 1 level to overall length
Integral Suppressor	-10% STRMIN
Muzzle Brake	-30% STRMIN
Recoil reduction	-10% STRMIN
Bipod	-10 STRMIN
Autofire	STRMIN and OCV increased, see chart below
Bulky	1/2 DCV
Arrangement	Must be set up before use

 

Autofire
Rate of fire	OCV Bonus	Str Min
3	+1	+1
5	+2	+3
8	+3	+4
10	+4	+5
13	+5	+7
15	+6	+8
18	+7	+9
20	+8	+10
23	+9	+12
25	+10	+13

 

Effects of muzzle blast
DC of attack	Per mod (hearing)	Per mod (sight)	Flash vs hearing (Ex, -1 DC per 2")
1	+1	+0	0
2	+2	+0	1d6
3-4	+3	+1	2d6
5-8	+4	+2	3d6
9-16	+5	+3	4d6
17+	+6	+4	5d6
Sonic crack only	+3	N/a	0

 

Muzzle blast modifiers
Device	Per mod (hearing)	Per mod (sight)	Flash
Muzzle blast suppressor	-2	-3	-1d6
Sound suppressor	-3	-3	-2d6
High volume sound suppressor	-5	-3	-3d6
Muzzle brake	+1	+1	N/a
Subsonic ammunition	-1	+0	N/a
Short barrel	+1	+2	N/a
Very short barrel	+2	+3	+1d6
Black powder	N/a	+2	N/a

[AaronD]

Couple random thoughts...

 

First, I've been thinking about the +OCV bonus for autofire. There should be some advantage when firing single shot at long range. I was thinking of having a bonus to OCV but an offsetting penalty to RMod. I still haven't gotten the number right. On a related (but off topic) point, have you thought about reworking the suppression fire rules since a weapon has the same effect regardless of rate of fire. In fact, a AF3 weapon is preferable to a AF10 weapon because it will use less ammo.

 

Also, what about the effect of lighter bullets being more affected by wind resistance and, thus, having poorer long range performance regardless of barrel length.

 

Finally, I'm trying to work out a system were large caliber weapons (.50s and ATRs) have the ability to blow through soft cover. Right now, a character shooting at someone peeking out from behind cover gets a -4 OCV penalty regardless of the type of cover. I was thinking of a +1 OCV bonus only useable to offset soft cover.

 

Edit: What exaclty do you mean by "levels of piercing?"

 

Aaron

[Toadmaster]

AF vs single shot at range, I hadn't really thought about it but in earlier versions of HERO Rmod was a -1 / x# inches (-1/3" etc) AF cut this in 1/2 so that -1/3" was only -1/2" on AF. Something I didn't mention but I was thinking that with the larger Rmod bonuses is that the Rmod should only apply to braced or set shooting or at least only part should apply, unless braced and or set. Perhaps only the velocity based Rmod should apply to regular shooting (faster bullets have less drop and are effected less by wind etc) by taking a little more time these can be adjusted for.

 

An AF3 weapon should be "better" than an AF10 weapon, thats why 3 rd bursts are prefered they are more efficient, but the AF will be much handier for suppression or spraying multiple targets.

 

I suppose you could provide a wind penalty and subtract part of it with the stun mod (since the higher stun mod tends to apply to heavier bullets).

 

There have been a few discussions about shooting through cover, about the only thing that makes sense to me is to ignore the barriers body and only use the defense of it, if the bullet does more damage than the DEF the remainder passes on to hit the hit location originally rolled minus that absorbed by the barrier.

[AaronD]

Originally posted by Toadmaster An AF3 weapon should be "better" than an AF10 weapon, thats why 3 rd bursts are prefered they are more efficient, but the AF will be much handier for suppression or spraying multiple targets.

 

Certainly an MG42 is better at suppressing an area than a Thompson. The rules, however, do not distinguish the two. I was thinking of having multiple OCV penalties for suppression fire based on ROF. I don't like the sprayfire rules as is. They seem to fiddly.

 

I suppose you could provide a wind penalty and subtract part of it with the stun mod (since the higher stun mod tends to apply to heavier bullets).

 

I didn't mean wind per se. If you have two bullets, a .22 and a .50 both shot with the same muzzle velocity and same barrel length, the .50 will travel straighter longer and, thus, should have a better RMod. (Or, rather, the .22 should have a worse one).

 

 

Aaron

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by AaronD

Edit: What exaclty do you mean by "levels of piercing?"

 

Aaron

 

Piercing was a 3rd edition Advantage. Basically, with 1 level of Piercing on an attack, you treated the target's DEF as being 1 lower, ie 10 rPD becomes 9rPD in reference to that attack. Sometimes, it's useful in converting weapons etc from other game systems, or for giving a real world weapon a slight advantage over another without giving it a full damage class or AP advantage....

[Toadmaster]

Sorry about that, I was making sure I responded to your other comments that I missed your direct question.

 

The Captain has it right, basically its extra damage only vs armor (no body or stun), my intent is to allow more flexibility so a .44 magnum (2d6) and a .30-30 (2d6) are not exactly the same, the .30-30 would have an extra level or 2 of piercing so would penetrate armor a little easier. Many rifles penetrate far better than pistols even though the muzzle energy would put them in the same DC. My thought is Piercing will held differentiate them.