Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

[Guest taxboy4]

Hello all

 

I was curious in people's experiences / comments when they have played a game of D&D 3.5 after / while playing a Fantasy Hero campaign.

 

I'm playing in a Conan d20 game and the DM is awesome as is the story but the mechanics are really bugging me - the fights seems artifical given the use of hit points, general damage, not able to aim or specify damage etc.

 

Even saving throws are p'ing me off.

 

I will finish this campaign but I'm sticking to Famtasy Hero in future - the combat and flexibility are just the best.

 

Thoguhts, comments?

[tkdguy]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

I was never that impressed by the d20 system in the first place. It's not the worst one out there, but I don't consider it the best either. Frankly, I was happy enough with the 2nd Edition rules.

 

But I agree with you. I'd rather play Hero any time.

[Fitz]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

I got all excited about D&D d20 when it came out, because I had so much fun playing AD&D1e back in the Pleistocene. And at first, I thought it was fine, keeping the feel of D&D without the more egregiously pathetic features of AD&D. I played it for about a year before I realised that although it was better than AD&D, it was still a straitjacket system -- just a bit looser under the armpits than the old one.

 

As usual, I went back to the Hero System. I've found nothing to beat it, as long as the GM and players make sure to play the genre, and not the mechabics of the system.

[sbarron]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

I played 3.0 for a while, but it just got old once my character reached 12-13th level. Advances up levels and picking new feats was fun, though. And nothing annoys me more than saving throws. Particularly save or die stuff. It's so un-fun to die from a bad die roll.

[BlackSword]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

We are currently running Spycraft. It does use the Vitality/Wound rules, so it has a little feel of Hero. However, during character creation I was neerly pulling my hair out.

 

Me: Okay, I've bought all the skills I want, now to make my character more combat effective, oh wait....I CAN'T...my attack value is set by class. Well how about these feats, oh, because of the way my dice* fell in character creation I can't use about half the feats because I don't meet the min requirements.

 

I am spoiled by Hero and other point-buy systems, so nice for character creation.

 

*We did use random character generation, which was fun and I like my character, however I rolled a near average character, so only one spectacular attribute.

[Ron]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

I know quite a few people that were not much in D&D and were excited with the release of D&D d20. Problem is, after a while all of them realised that the game itself wasn't that good, that they could do better with other systems, and if they want nostalgia, they would do better sticking with AD&D.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

I haven't played any form of D&D for 15 years, not including the day I DMed for my nephew and his friend so they could see what gaming was like. If they had had any experience in gaming at all, I would have used Hero, though...

 

How's that Conan game's background, though? Worth buying for conversion to Hero? My FLGS is having a 50% off sale on Thursday, and I'm wondering what I should pick up.

[Nevenall]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

My friend is thinking of converting his Star Gate campaign to the d20 version.

 

When we were making characters I was astounded to discover that the class I choose would determine what kinds of equipment I could take on missions. At least I think it was my class. Could also have been the major or minor specialties which I had to choose. Character creation was really complex.

Also, one of my feats has the effect of increasing the friendliness rating of neutral NPCs by one level. I could annoy some GMs a lot with a power like that. "Your NPC can't do that, he has to be friendly."

 

I've also played in an actual D&D 3.0 game while GM Fantasy Hero. It was a blast. There were only two of us and we didn't really give a hoot about the game we were just there to roleplay our slightly wacky characters to the hilt and get stuff and xp so we could get better at getting stuff and xp and that was fun.

[Vondy]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

If I were to play D&D it would be AD&D, but I prefer fantasy hero. It used to be the absence of a workable magic system (the way 4E did it was extremely substandard IMO) made it hard for me to take fantasy hero seriously (yes, I know, you can make your own - but that's massively time consuming) as well as the fact that it was an AD&D clone setting (why bother...), but the release of the griomoires (and what I've heard about them) will make my job a lot easier if I decide to run non-AD&D setting clone hero. Make mine Hero!

[tkdguy]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

I'd rather play 2E than 3E when it comes to D&D; I don't think the latter is bad, but I wasn't impressed enough with it to buy 3.5. In any case, if I were to play other systems beside HERO, I'd rather play GURPS or Tristat dX.

 

I tried to introduce HERO to a group of players, but they seemed overwhelmd with the system. Of course, this was before Sidekick cam out. They responded better to BESM, so I can use that as a stepping stone to get their feet wet. I'm also thinking of using GURPS Lite until they can "graduate" to HERO.

[Markdoc]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

We still play it from time to time: only one-off late-night, high-beer-consumption games, though. We tend to use 2nd Ed. AD&D mostly rather than 3.5 (since most of us still have the old books, while only one of us has 3.5) and we can do 2nd Ed. characters in 15 minutes rather than the hour you use for 3.5 (what's the point of playing 3.5 unlss you use all the kw00l options?)

 

It's fun in a kind of "I'm a fighter, so I fight, you're a cleric, so you heal. Don't go taking none of them pointless damage type spells - the job of walking artillery piece is already taken by the wizard" sort of way. It's fun, but I can't imagine running a campaign using those rules again, or anything more than a kill-the-hordes of undead/orcs/giants game session.

 

cheers, Mark

[paigeoliver]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

We played D&D all weekend this weekend. Not D20 D&D, not AD&D, but old school "Basic set", "Expert Set", "Companion Set", "Master Set" D&D. It is totally unrealistic but it has a real charm to it, and combat is REALLY fast, probably 5 to 10 times as fast as it is in Hero.

 

As much as I like the Fantasy Hero books they suffer from the same problem as every other Fantasy RPG that isn't Classic D&D - 2nd Edition AD&D, and that problem is the fact that it is incompatible with the bulk of fantasy RPG materials. D20 D&D suffers from this problem too, since there is 25 years of pre d20 material that is all essentially compatible, and then d20 came along and was just different enough that the old stuff had to be converted.

 

I am writing a Classic rules D&D module right now, "Little Tomb on the Edge of the Borderlands". I'll probably convert it to Hero as well.

 

By the way, WHAT IS the current official name for the old simpler "Dungeons & Dragons" that was sold alongside of AD&D? I know it used to be D&D, but now d20 D&D is called D&D. I tend to refer to it as either old D&D or Rules Cyclopedia D&D.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

I think it is still "officially" D&D but now that is a confusing title. I'd go with D&D Classic.

 

If you want old school 1st edition with support and a decent combat system... go HackMaster. The only thing I don't like about the presentation of the system is the number of monster books (8+). It is totally 1st AD&D with some nice mechanics thrown on it but it is complex, no bones about it.

 

However, in discussions with some of my fellow gamers (not the HM GM), we've decided that if we aren't going to play HERO, that d20 with HM combat rules would be kinda sweet, if only because d20 is easier for character management.

 

1. Honor. The HM honor rules are actually quite fun.

2. Penetration. All dice in HM open end at -1, including 2dx. So, if you use a 2d4 weapon both can open end, rolling an additional 1d4-1 (which can still open end).

3. Critical hits. Gruesome.

4. 20 HP kicker (10 HP for really small races).

5. Armor damage

6. Shield damage

 

We thought about taking the SRD and making OGL Hack (maybe someone has). There are a lot of fun things about HM that are fun, but the skill system isn't one of them (although it is better than 1st Ed.).

 

But that said I'd still rather play HERO.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

We played D&D all weekend this weekend. Not D20 D&D, not AD&D, but old school "Basic set", "Expert Set", "Companion Set", "Master Set" D&D. It is totally unrealistic but it has a real charm to it, and combat is REALLY fast, probably 5 to 10 times as fast as it is in Hero.

 

You must have been playing fairly mid-level characters. From what I remember about D&D in all its forms, at low levels you roll all day before you hit and kill the enemy, and at high levels you hit every time, but have to do 100 points of damage 1d8 at a time to finish him off.

[arcady]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

DnD is playable, but certainly not what I would call the best system on the market. With 3.x I can stand to sit through it, and even run a game of it, but I do end up feeling tied down.

 

That said, DnD does have a certain feel to it, but I suspect that is personal nostalgia. When I sit down to DnD I remember being 11 years old, watching smurfs, freaking out over my sister putting my dice in the oven, or running her through the 'S' series of modules. I remember days of 1gp = 1xp, and mistakes in my read of the treasure tables causing it to be 3000gp per orc and not per tribe of orcs, I remember all 18 stats, I remember characters named 'herpes' because my older brother told it me 'sounds like an elf' and well, not knowing what it meant it sure did.

 

I remember the cool and funky art of those old days, and the novelty of an RPG. That is what draws me to DnD...

 

It's one of the good parts of my childhood...

 

When I play DnD in a more in depth and flavored setting, the flaws of it start coming to mind. When I'm not just chasing down monsters I can take off the rose colored glasses of childhood memories and then I realize what I have left is just not letting me do what I want to do in the crafting of complex stories.

 

 

I got back into DnD with d20 because Fuzion had made me very hostile to Hero games, and let me finally move away from the system and not feel a need to put up with the problems it has. It left me without a super hero option for some years - wandering through games like 'Sailor Moon' in attempts to construct an alternative (and comments by me and others likely led them to make Silver Age Sentinels out of a Sailor Moon adoptation).

 

But it has worn thin over time. I can play through dungeon crawls for a few years, but unlike some of the groups I played with when playing d20 - I can't stick to it for decades at a time, and even when I do do it I have to peel in deeper and start doing things with my characters that upset the paradigms of the game.

 

DnD can handle more than Dungeon Crawls now, but it doesn't handle it well by comparrison - and that fact sticks with me all the more because I know the alternatives even better than I do DnD. Having played GURPS since 1982 (Melee, Wizard, TFT) and Hero since 1984 - my thought process starts there when I work out ideas, and then has to translate over to DnD. For me DnD is always about limiting my ideas, narrowing them down to its paradigms. Even though those paradigms are wider now, they are still constrained.

 

There are old threads on DnD boards where I try to explain to people why I find leveling a problem for me as a GM - it forces my storyline in a certain direction. DnD people generally do not understand this problem, or why I have it - they think differently than me. To them it is natural and they quote one set of mythos to back their paradigm where I see another set to back mine. That is just one case among many.

 

It became especially stark in the last DnD campaign I played in. The GM kept us at level 2 for half a year - the length that a normal DnD game takes to reach level 20 - and I just started getting really frustrated with the lack of character growth and the fact that it was not playing like DnD. It was that leveling paradigm again, only in a different way. The game was not following DnD's paradigm. At that point, I started realizing that the urban no combat intrigue game we were playing would work so much better in all those other RPGs I own...

 

It started to be a drag to go to the sessions, and that drag has extended out to it now being a drag to run my own DnD game - which is now set to end soon.

 

I will move on to Fantasy Hero, but I face players who do not desire the move, and fear that I may lose half or more of my group in the process. But, at this point I'd rather not game than game in something that doesn't pull me anymore.

 

Give me a simple dungeon crawl and I'll show up for your DnD game, but only if the kill rate is at least one PC per session... DnD for me is a boardgame without the board - and in that you need challenges and HARD won victories. Give me plot, story, character depth, long lived PCs, and so on and I will flee back to a system that will let me excel with that style of play.

[Guest taxboy4]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

You must have been playing fairly mid-level characters. From what I remember about D&D in all its forms' date=' at low levels you roll all day before you hit and kill the enemy, and at high levels you hit every time, but have to do 100 points of damage 1d8 at a time to finish him off.[/quote']

 

Yep, the combat really peed me off, when i hit someone with my heavy long bow, he should die, or be badly hurt..not shrug and keep on coming...

[paigeoliver]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

For me one of the real strengths of classic D&D is the fact that it moves fast, as we can often play through an entire game (without a GM screen) without ever having to consult the rules.

 

The biggest problem I see with the system though is that it is way too lethal with lower level PCs often dying from a single hit, and there is no negative body rules in classic D&D (only an optional mention for using a system like that if you were playing in a "no ressurection" game).

 

A few other small problems with classic D&D.

 

Thiefs are nearly useless until 6th or 7th level, having little chance to successfully perform any maneuver other than climb walls.

 

The weapons table really favors a couple of weapons, and characters wanting to use more unique weapons are at a bit of a disadvantage.

 

As far as miss, miss, miss, miss, miss with low level characters goes. That is really only an issue if the GM is throwing creatures with low armor classes at you. Low level characters tend to fight monsters with an average AC of six. Assuming the average low level character is getting a +1 to hit for some reason, and they only need a 12 or better on D20 to hit. With a party of 6 that makes for 2 or 3 hits per round.

 

We started off with first level characters, after playing through one entire module, and half of another, the characters now vary from 1st to 3rd level. There were 3 player deaths (out of 7 characters), and the characters spent most of their money getting dead characters revived.

 

At this point the party is really varying in power level. The 3rd level Dwarf seems near immortal compared to the other characters though, as everyone got maximum hit points for level 1, and the dwarf rolled max for levels 2 and 3 as well, and he had a CON bonus, so he has like 30 hit points, while the other characters have 6-16.

[Edward Kann]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

The challenge that I have faced in trying to write 3.5 material is that there is no universal standard for what a point means or what a d6 means in the game system.

 

The entire 3.5 game system is pretty far all over the map and you need to very nearly have a photographic memory (tough on us old guys with poor memory to begin with) to keep track of the ten zillion different spell exceptions, rules exceptions and all the million different feats and skills that go with all the countless prestige classes.

 

On the one hand it is fun to have so many options but it can be a little difficult having to re-study several chapters in several different hard cover books just to make sure you are putting an individual encounter that will last maybe 20 minutes in game together.

 

To my mind the trade off should best case be about two to one on writing up adventures and game material for any game system I want to run in. In the Hero System I am very familiar with the rules and I can consistently create a four hour adventure with everything i want written up with a good amount of detail and that includes villains, magic items, coming up with some spells and creatures and the entire ball of wax in about 8 hours of work for a 4 hour adventure.

 

In 3.5 on the other hand while I also have run a DnD campaign off and on for the last 30 some odd years the rules have changed so dramatically and there are so many countless books that even while I own MOST of them and keep them on a shelf within arms reach of my computer and desk it usually takes me about double the time to write and adventure using 3.5 if I want to make sure that I have all my basis covered.

 

This is not because in 3.5 I am even creating any new material. In fact the vast majority of the prep. time that i face writing 3.5 adventures is in making notes on all the rules and all the abilities of existing creatures, spells, feats and magic items scattered through all four to seven books i have to keep open on the floor around my feet while I am writing up the adventure.

 

Also. When creating an adventure in Hero it takes me exactly five hot seconds to come up with the experience point reward for an adventure. In d20 I have to break out TABLES and hack through a very cumbersome and incredibly unwieldy experience reward system that often takes me another 30 to 45 minutes to hash out adventure experience for the upcoming game on TOP of what it took me to write it.

 

Bottom line is that I play both games frequently and have done so for a very, very, very long time. Chances are good I'll still be using both as I simply have two different player groups that prefer and are more familiar with each system.

 

For me it's not so much getting tied down to any one game system although I do prefer some over others but in being able to run a good game for my player group. I find that a lot of time if I want to play with a particular gaming group that I wind up adopting whatever rules system they are more comfortable provided it is one that I already own and understand. At this point with something like eight or twelve game systems on my book shelves I am loathe to purchase a new system.

 

Edward

[DRThrush]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

When the 3.0 rules came out I and some friends all picked it up for the sake of nostalgia, and I ended up running a game. That game lasted about 30 months. It went that long because my players were having a lot of fun. I have the kind of players who will overlook the weird parts of the rules if they are having a good time... but at times those same rules made my teeth itch.

 

I finally killed that game and started a Fantasy Hero game, and my players (3-4 of whom where not familiar with the HERO system) immediately appreciated the flexibility of the rules, though they were a little intimidated by the complexity. They all felt like they were taking off their training-wheels.

 

With the right players and the right GM nearly any system is workable, but for my money the HERO system is still the best.

 

Dave

[Old Man]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

Yep' date=' the combat really peed me off, when i hit someone with my heavy long bow, he should die, or be badly hurt..not shrug and keep on coming...[/quote']

 

No, he can still keep coming after one shot. It's when you plug a guy with 4-6 magic arrows and he keeps coming that is a problem.

[arcady]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

 

Also. When creating an adventure in Hero it takes me exactly five hot seconds to come up with the experience point reward for an adventure. In d20 I have to break out TABLES and hack through a very cumbersome and incredibly unwieldy experience reward system that often takes me another 30 to 45 minutes to hash out adventure experience for the upcoming game on TOP of what it took me to write it.

Just use this:

 

http://arcady0.topcities.com/Encounter_Calculator.html

 

It is accurate to 3.5, but you can always test it with the book if you like.

 

I don't think I could stand to play any version of DnD other than 3.5, and that is itself starting to push it with me, for the reasons I outlined in my last post on the end of page one.

 

Having played an archer in a game last year, if I were a DnD monster I would much rather face a 10th level wizard or a 10th level barbarian or even both combined than a single 10th level fighter with no armor, a non magical bow (just make it mighty), and feats tailored to archery...

 

My PC did more damage per hit than anyone, usually exceeding them by 20 to 30, and I could do it predictably every round with no saving throw issues.

[Guest taxboy4]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

No' date=' he can still keep coming after one shot. It's when you plug a guy with 4-6 [i']magic[/i] arrows and he keeps coming that is a problem.

 

Yeppers, so true - in the Conan d20 game i was playing I shot a guy with long bow arrows and he shrugged it off - no winding / bruising etc.

 

In my Fantasy Hero Game an elvish archer shot from the dark into a camp of guards and killed one a round with head shots.

 

I loathe the pc creation restrictions in d20 - Hero lets you create a 40 year old archer or 35 year old wizard or 15 year old theif with incredible natural dex(terity) ....

[Markdoc]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

As far as miss, miss, miss, miss, miss with low level characters goes. That is really only an issue if the GM is throwing creatures with low armor classes at you.

 

Maybe - but after about 18 years I still remember a frustrating ADnD session where my character (Fonographix the bard, back in the days when Bards were the meanest thing you could be) faced off against 3 will o' the Wisps. I could only hit them on a 20, they could only hit me on a 20 and we spent about 6 hours real time playing out the combat.

 

Feh..... scarred me for life, that did.

 

cheers, Mark

[Fitz]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

Maybe - but after about 18 years I still remember a frustrating ADnD session where my character (Fonographix the bard, back in the days when Bards were the meanest thing you could be) faced off against 3 will o' the Wisps. I could only hit them on a 20, they could only hit me on a 20 and we spent about 6 hours real time playing out the combat.

 

Feh..... scarred me for life, that did.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Bah, serves him right, the way he ruthlessly savaged poor old Fnord's non-psionic brains

[paigeoliver]

Re: Playing 3.5 after Fantasy Hero

 

Maybe - but after about 18 years I still remember a frustrating ADnD session where my character (Fonographix the bard, back in the days when Bards were the meanest thing you could be) faced off against 3 will o' the Wisps. I could only hit them on a 20, they could only hit me on a 20 and we spent about 6 hours real time playing out the combat.

 

Feh..... scarred me for life, that did.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Ok, a smart GM could have fixed that problem in a snap. If your odds of hitting them were equal to their odds of hitting you, then simply move it on down the table, and make it more like a 15 or better instead. Of course, the smart thing would have probably been to simply run away.