bows and arrows

[Ork]

wow my 1st post..

 

hi there,

 

i have a question regarding bows and arrows. i've read the past threads about this topic in this forum but i'm still confused how to handle that subject.

 

here is what i want to achive:

 

i want to build bows and arrows as separate powers. the damage is done by the arrow, the skill roll and END costs are part of the bow. Is must be possible to combine any bow with any arrow. i do not want to just have arrows as HKA and see the bow just as the ranged adder. i know this can be fixed with quite simple rules, but i want it to be a bit more complex.

 

So i tried to do the following:

 

Normal Longbow: Custom Power, Requires A Skill Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; +0), Limited Range (+1/4) (50 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 12 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Limited Power (Requires Arrows) (-1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

This bow can fire all arrows up to 40APs. To fire better arrows, you need a better bow.

 

Standard Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 1/2d6 (40 Active Points); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), Limited Power Can only be used with a Bow (-1), No STR Bonus (-1/2), 12 Charges (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances (Arrows may break during impact, can be fixed with a skill roll); -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

So the bow and the arrows will cost 16 AP together (a normal HKA weapon like a sword with 1 1/2 d6 would cost about 12).

If you get better Arrows like 2d6 HKA, the costs will increase not as much as it would having a sword with 2d6 HKA (Arrows +1AP, Sword +3AP).

The max damage done with this bow would be 2 1/2d or 19AP wich is about the cost of a 2 1/2d HKA Sword.

 

So here are my questions:

- Is this a realistic and "valid" way to do what i want to achive?

- did i miss any limitation/advantage?

- how to handle magic arrows that are build with much more AP?

 

Regards,

Ben

 

btw... please excuse my bad english, i'm just a poor european with a different native language

 

--

http://www.hero-system.de

The World desperately needs more Heros!

[HewhoisMatt]

Re: bows and arrows

 

I really can not see why you would want to make it more complex. I also think the bow has the most effect on damage because it provides the power and the type of arrow is just a modifier.

 

Broad head- more killing damage

 

Blunt- stun only

 

Arrows built for range, to start fires, cut ropes, signal people, etc, etc.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: bows and arrows

 

 

i want to build bows and arrows as separate powers. the damage is done by the arrow, the skill roll and END costs are part of the bow. Is must be possible to combine any bow with any arrow. i do not want to just have arrows as HKA and see the bow just as the ranged adder. i know this can be fixed with quite simple rules, but i want it to be a bit more complex.

 

Hmmm. Well, thats interesting, but realistically speaking, its the Bow that determines the damage potential of its projectile (the arrow). That damage potential is definately modified by the type of arrow/head being fired, but the majority of the damage comes from the velocity generated by the Bow itself (don't forget the damage of projectiles is calculated by taking 1/2 the mass of the projectile and multiplying it by the square of the projectiles velocity, thus velocity is the main determination of damage)

 

So i tried to do the following:

 

Normal Longbow: Custom Power, Requires A Skill Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; +0), Limited Range (+1/4) (50 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 12 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Limited Power (Requires Arrows) (-1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

Why Requires a Skill Roll? You want the characters to make 2 rolls each time they fire their bows? Don't forget that Requires a Skill Roll is in addition to the attack roll.

Limited Range: How is the range limited? Should't this be a limitation and not an advantage?

Limited Power: That limitation seems a bit high, considering how common arrows are and the fact that absolutely everyone knows what the device is used for. I would suggest -1/2

The rest of the limitations seem fine.

 

Here's how I would write up the Bow using your method:

 

Bow:

Naked Advantage: Ranged(+1/2) For up to 40 active points (20)

Limitations: OAF(-1)

Limited Range(-1/4)

STR Min (-1/2)

Two Handed(-1/2)

STR does not add(-1/2)

Real Weapon(-1/4)

Only adds to Arrows(-1/2)

Total cost: 4pts

 

This way, the bow only adds the Ranged advantage to arrows it fires. The range is 1/2 of the range based on the active points of the arrow. (a 40 active point arrow would have a range of 100")

 

This bow can fire all arrows up to 40APs. To fire better arrows, you need a better bow.

 

Agreed. After this point, you are no longer firing arrows, but Ballista bolts!

 

Standard Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 1/2d6 (40 Active Points); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), Limited Power Can only be used with a Bow (-1), No STR Bonus (-1/2), 12 Charges (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances (Arrows may break during impact, can be fixed with a skill roll); -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

I would drop the Limited Power: Can only be used with a Bow; arrows can very easily be gripped in one's hand and shoved into an opponents midsection or eye-socket! Using arrows in this manner though, does have a tendency to break them in the chaos of melee, so any arrow used in this fashion would lose its recoverable property.

I would also drop the "No STR bonus" limitation. This is taken care of by the Bow. When you use the Bow to fire an arrow, it does not get the bonus of one's STR to damage...but an arrow used in someone's hand should get that bonus.

OAF;Fragile-----perfect

 

 

So here are my questions:

- Is this a realistic and "valid" way to do what i want to achive?

 

I think so!

 

- did i miss any limitation/advantage?

 

See my above comments.

 

- how to handle magic arrows that are build with much more AP?

 

Well, all you would really need to do is to add more advantages/skills/powers to either the bow or the arrow. Simply do not worry about the Active point factor when it comes to powerful magic arrows and normal bows.

[Ork]

Re: bows and arrows

 

Wow.. great answer.. thanks for that lets see what i got to add ..

 

Hmmm. Well' date=' thats interesting, but realistically speaking, its the [i']Bow[/i] that determines the damage potential of its projectile (the arrow). That damage potential is definately modified by the type of arrow/head being fired, but the majority of the damage comes from the velocity generated by the Bow itself (don't forget the damage of projectiles is calculated by taking 1/2 the mass of the projectile and multiplying it by the square of the projectiles velocity, thus velocity is the main determination of damage)

 

okay, i agree here, but the bow itself would not deal any damage. maybe a d6 stun if you really hit that bow hard over someones head. but i dont think the bow deals the damage, even if its the velocity of the arrow is determined by the bow. so how about that:

 

standard bow: naked adv (like you desc. below)

longbow: naked adv (like you desc. below) plus HKA 1/2d6

 

so the increased strength of the better bow would result in that plus HKA,

so all arrows deal the same damage but better bows with better velocity

deals a bit more damage

 

Why Requires a Skill Roll? You want the characters to make 2 rolls each time they fire their bows? Don't forget that Requires a Skill Roll is in addition to the attack roll.

yeah, i did forget about that, so this is nonsense..

 

Limited Power: That limitation seems a bit high, considering how common arrows are and the fact that absolutely everyone knows what the device is used for. I would suggest -1/2

The rest of the limitations seem fine.

okay.. agree..

 

Bow:

Naked Advantage: Ranged(+1/2) For up to 40 active points (20)

Limitations: OAF(-1)

Limited Range(-1/4)

STR Min (-1/2)

Two Handed(-1/2)

STR does not add(-1/2)

Real Weapon(-1/4)

Only adds to Arrows(-1/2)

Total cost: 4pts

 

now i did read about naked advantages like this ranged, but where in the FREd does i find the approriate section that describes that?

 

This way, the bow only adds the Ranged advantage to arrows it fires. The range is 1/2 of the range based on the active points of the arrow. (a 40 active point arrow would have a range of 100")

sounds fine ..

 

I would drop the Limited Power: Can only be used with a Bow; arrows can very easily be gripped in one's hand and shoved into an opponents midsection or eye-socket! Using arrows in this manner though, does have a tendency to break them in the chaos of melee, so any arrow used in this fashion would lose its recoverable property.

 

i dont know about that.. as you wrote earlier on, its the velocity that makes the damage. even though you might drive an arrow into someones torso, i dont think that would have the same effect as firing the arrow with a bow. and hitting an eye with an arrow would require a very agile agressor so maybe we can make an arrow to a multipower for sadistic heros if he prefers it that way.

 

I would also drop the "No STR bonus" limitation. This is taken care of by the Bow. When you use the Bow to fire an arrow, it does not get the bonus of one's STR to damage...but an arrow used in someone's hand should get that bonus.

 

dont agree here. like i said, you will not be able to generate the necessary velocity to be really effective. the arrow will more likely break than go further into the body. especially if the victim has an armor.

 

Well, all you would really need to do is to add more advantages/skills/powers to either the bow or the arrow. Simply do not worry about the Active point factor when it comes to powerful magic arrows and normal bows.

 

thats sounds like a acceptable way. simply ignoring the added AP will save a lot of rules stretching .. i can live with that..

 

thanks for the comments, it really helped me to move on..

 

Regards,

Ben

[Ork]

Re: bows and arrows

 

I really can not see why you would want to make it more complex. I also think the bow has the most effect on damage because it provides the power and the type of arrow is just a modifier.

 

Broad head- more killing damage

 

Blunt- stun only

 

Arrows built for range, to start fires, cut ropes, signal people, etc, etc.

 

yeah i know this is more complex that is must be, but i like it more complex when it comes to ranged combat. i'll see if it is a practical way as i just started to design my fantasy HERO campain. thanks for your hints..

 

regards,

ben

[Ork]

Re: bows and arrows

 

I would drop the Limited Power: Can only be used with a Bow; arrows can very easily be gripped in one's hand and shoved into an opponents midsection or eye-socket! Using arrows in this manner though, does have a tendency to break them in the chaos of melee, so any arrow used in this fashion would lose its recoverable property.

 

one more thing.. how about:

 

Limited Power Power - loses about a third of its effectiveness (Does only deal half of the damage if not used with a bow; -1/2)

 

for the bow.. so we have a compromise between your point any my -1 limitation

[lazarus]

Re: bows and arrows

 

Here's how I'd do it (assuming this is actually legal...)

 

bow (multipower, real weapon, etc, etc, etc) 40 point powers

slot: normal arrows RKA xD6

slot: knight killers RKA xD6 + AP

slot: blunt arrows EB xD6 (stun only)

 

etc, etc

 

Laz

[lazarus]

Re: bows and arrows

 

I forgot, the arrows would have the 12 charges (recoverable) adv/lim as well. However, depending on the type of arrow, it might be different.

 

Laz

[Ork]

Re: bows and arrows

 

Here's how I'd do it (assuming this is actually legal...)

bow (multipower, real weapon, etc, etc, etc) 40 point powers

slot: normal arrows RKA xD6

slot: knight killers RKA xD6 + AP

slot: blunt arrows EB xD6 (stun only)

 

yeah, thought about that as well, but then you have to pay for

all possible arrow types even though you just prefer to use only

one arrow type.

 

again i want to achive independet bow and arrows to place them

once on my equipment chart and dont have to care anymore if

any player want a strange combination of bow/arrow.

 

i guess your approach is legal and even recommended for a

superheroic campain, but it wont work on a heroic campaing

as equipment.

 

regards,

ben

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: bows and arrows

 

one more thing.. how about:

 

Limited Power Power - loses about a third of its effectiveness (Does only deal half of the damage if not used with a bow; -1/2)

 

for the bow.. so we have a compromise between your point any my -1 limitation

 

That was exactly what I was about to suggest.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: bows and arrows

 

Here's how I'd do it (assuming this is actually legal...)

 

bow (multipower, real weapon, etc, etc, etc) 40 point powers

slot: normal arrows RKA xD6

slot: knight killers RKA xD6 + AP

slot: blunt arrows EB xD6 (stun only)

 

etc, etc

 

Laz

 

This is the method I would recommend for a Green Arrow style character in a Supers campaign...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: bows and arrows

 

Ah yes. And if you are planning to make your characters pay points for these items, don't forget the Independant limitation as well as OAF.

[HewhoisMatt]

Re: bows and arrows

 

So Ork are you going to make your heros pay pts for all their gear?

 

I also don't know about giving that much club damage to a bow, they are designed to flex and not for melee combat.

 

The idea that you need a better bow to fire better arrows is all wrong. I can fire any arrow I own off my biggest piece of crap bow, but If I try to use one of my old, used, garbage arrows off my best bow. The arrow will shatter and there is a good chance I will get a piece of shaft in my arm.

 

As far as stabbing someone with a arrow (gotta say it's a dumb idea) it would not hurt the arrow unless you mess up the fletching and then it will fly funny. A arrow can take insane abuse. If you watch a slow motion film of a arrow being fired you will see it flex in the middle and then spring out from the bow string. It looks very odd but that is the way it works. I should also point out that arrows are designed to go in not out so if you did stab someone with a arrow you would had trouble pulling it right back out. I have found it easier to push them thru the body to retreive them but it would depend on the arrow head.

 

I would also skip the 12 charges thing and treat each arrow as one charge because some people will want to carry 10 or 20 or 40 and the numbers will change alot and often.

 

Well I hope this helps.

[Ork]

Re: bows and arrows

 

Hey Matt,

 

So Ork are you going to make your heros pay pts for all their gear?

I wanted to let them spend money on equipment. the way i understand fantasy hero, all regular equipment (like normal, non-magic weapons) is normal equipment and is payed with money (converted from AP).

 

I also don't know about giving that much club damage to a bow, they are designed to flex and not for melee combat.

i see that the way you do.. as far as i'm concerned the bow has no melee damage at all. but if i add a HKA as a plus to the bow, doesnt that means that the bow will do the HKA damage only if the 1st power (firing an arrow) is used?

 

The idea that you need a better bow to fire better arrows is all wrong. I can fire any arrow I own off my biggest piece of crap bow, but If I try to use one of my old, used, garbage arrows off my best bow. The arrow will shatter and there is a good chance I will get a piece of shaft in my arm.

i see. this is more or less a necessity on part of the HERO System rules. i have to buy the naked ranged advantage on base of a fixed amount of AP. So i decided to go with 40AP. You can build a lot of arrows with 40 AP, should be enough damage for my campain. You may be right with the fact that e.g. a shortbow build as a naked ranged adv. worth 30 AP should still able to shot high end arrows.

so i might reduce the damage of the arrow down to 30AP (or whatever the bow was build on), even if this is a 40AP arrow, arguing about the fewer velocity, or whatever.

 

but i see your point. any idea how to fix it?

 

As far as stabbing someone with a arrow (gotta say it's a dumb idea) it would not hurt the arrow unless you mess up the fletching and then it will fly funny. A arrow can take insane abuse. If you watch a slow motion film of a arrow being fired you will see it flex in the middle and then spring out from the bow string. It looks very odd but that is the way it works. I should also point out that arrows are designed to go in not out so if you did stab someone with a arrow you would had trouble pulling it right back out. I have found it easier to push them thru the body to retreive them but it would depend on the arrow head.

this sounds like you already did push a few arrows thru yourself

but yes, you're right, an arrow is very elastic. maybe i should drop the fragile part. but do you think its possible to inflict the same amount of damage simply by driving the arrow into someone with his own hand, instead of firing the arrow with a bow? i dont think so, that why NuSoardGraphite and i thought about the 'does only half damage when using without a bow' limitation.

 

I would also skip the 12 charges thing and treat each arrow as one charge because some people will want to carry 10 or 20 or 40 and the numbers will change alot and often.

this was only used to make life easier. if someone wants to buy a single arrow, i'll divide the price for a single arrow by 12. again, i want the characters to pay money, not pts for this.

 

Thanks for the reply, yes it did help ..

 

Ben

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: bows and arrows

 

Hey Matt,

 

 

 

 

 

i see. this is more or less a necessity on part of the HERO System rules. i have to buy the naked ranged advantage on base of a fixed amount of AP. So i decided to go with 40AP. You can build a lot of arrows with 40 AP, should be enough damage for my campain. You may be right with the fact that e.g. a shortbow build as a naked ranged adv. worth 30 AP should still able to shot high end arrows.

so i might reduce the damage of the arrow down to 30AP (or whatever the bow was build on), even if this is a 40AP arrow, arguing about the fewer velocity, or whatever.

 

but i see your point. any idea how to fix it?

 

Ben

 

No need to fix it.

 

If you have an arrow of a higher AP value than the bow you are firing it with, the AP's of the arrow will be lowered to the appropriate value. Example:

 

We have an Armor piercing arrow that does 2D6K damage. Thats 45 Active. However, our Ranger only has access to a primitive shortbow that can handle a maximum of 30 Active. Thus, we reduce the HKA w/Armor Piercing to 30 AP which reduces the damage to 1D6+1K AP.

 

Thus, the Bow itself will have a lot to do with the damage the arrow can cause!

[Ork]

Re: bows and arrows

 

We have an Armor piercing arrow that does 2D6K damage. Thats 45 Active. However, our Ranger only has access to a primitive shortbow that can handle a maximum of 30 Active. Thus, we reduce the HKA w/Armor Piercing to 30 AP which reduces the damage to 1D6+1K AP.

Thus, the Bow itself will have a lot to do with the damage the arrow can cause!

 

i love this system

[Ork]

Re: bows and arrows

 

okay then..

 

thanks to the HERO Designer, this is what i figured out.. maybe someone want to see a conclusion

 

Some bows:

Shortbow: Limited Range (Range Modifiers: 3"/6"/12"/24"/48"; +1/4); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 12 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Limited Power Only adds to arrows (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) for up to 30 Active Points of Arrows (2 Active Points)

 

Longbow: Limited Range (Range Modifiers: 6"/12"/24"/48"/96"; +1/4); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 14 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Limited Power Only adds to arrows (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) for up to 40 Active Points of Arrows (2 Active Points)

 

Compound Bow: (Total: 12 Active Cost, 8 Real Cost) Naked Modifier: Limited Range (Range Modifiers: 5"/10"/18"/25"/40"; +1/4); STR Minimum 16 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1 1/4), OAF (-1), Limited Power only adds to arrows (-1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) for up to 40 Active Points (Increased Impact (add +1DC if used at the 1" to 5")) (2 Active Points) (Real Cost: 2) plus Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6 (10 Active Points); No STR Bonus (-1/2), Linked (Naked Modifier; -1/4) (Real Cost: 6)

 

Assault Bow: (Total: 17 Active Cost, 10 Real Cost) Naked Modifier: Limited Range (Range Modifiers: 4"/8"/16"/32"/64"; +1/4); STR Minimum 17 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1 1/4), OAF (-1), Limited Power only adds to arrows (-1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) for up to 40 Active Points (2 Active Points) (Real Cost: 2) plus Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (15 Active Points); No STR Bonus (-1/2), Linked (Naked Modifier; -1/4) (Real Cost: 8)

 

Some thoughts..

• the short and longbow may not be perfectly balanced, both cost 2 AP. The shortbow does only need 12 STR, but the longbow has +10AP and a longer range for the limitation of a necessary STR of 14. so the longbow should be more expensive..
  
• the compound bow adds a +1DC if used on really short range. but the range modifier is nonlinear, so maybe that is okay for balancing
  
• the assault bow may be to powerful. maybe compound/assault should be +1pip/+1/2d6
  

 

Some Arrows:

Hunting Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6-1 (DC added for each Range Modifier: +1/+1/0/0/-1 (only if used with a bow)) (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Limited Power deals only half damage when not used with a bow (-1/2), 12 Charges (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances (arrow may break at impact, can be fixed with a PS: Archery); -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6+1 (DC added for each Range Modifier: +1/+1/0/0/-1) (20 Active Points); OAF (-1), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Limited Power deals only half damage when not used with a bow (-1/2), 12 Charges (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances (arrow may break at impact, can be fixed with a PS: Archery); -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

Warhead Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 1/2d6 (DC added for each Range Modifier: +1/+1/0/0/-1) (25 Active Points); OAF (-1), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Limited Power deals only half damage when not used with a bow (-1/2), 12 Charges (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances (arrow may break at impact, can be fixed with a PS: Archery); -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

Chainbreaking Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 1/2d6 (DC added for each Range Modifier: +1/+1/0/0/-1), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (37 Active Points); OAF (-1), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Limited Power deals only half damage when not used with a bow (-1/2), 12 Charges (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances (arrow may break at impact, can be fixed with a PS: Archery); -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

Some thoughts..

• HewhoisMatt did a good point, saying it does inflict additional damage if you want to get a damn arrow out of your torso. maybe we'll add another 1/2 d6 for warhead arrows when trying to remove the arrow.
  
• I'm not sure about blunt arrows.. NND (defence is force field/wall) or not NND?
  

 

If this is finally done, i'll post a prefab if anyone is interested ..

 

Regards,

Ben

[HewhoisMatt]

Re: bows and arrows

 

In the FH Game I'm playing now (you can read all about it a few thread from here) the game master told me to take what ever starting gear made sense. I thought this was a wonderful idea cause I really like keeping things simple, and I like them to make sense. I am not sure if we will have to pay points for magic items we find because we just found our two first a bag, and a sword but I suspect we will not and this to makes sense to me. Who ever made the item payed the points and the item should have the Idependent disadvantage. In FH your XP should be used to show what you have learned and how you have grown but thats just me. I tend to be very end justifies the means in my gaming, and I have been know to say this is the way it should be so bugger the math.

 

On stabbing with a arrow, you are right the damage would be much less maybe that of a small knife no more than a 1/2d6.

 

I really should have added somthing to that "Push arrows thru the body" line before Vegas C.S.I. shows up at my door.When life permits I enjoy hunting both with bow and rifle. So it is because of this I can say blunts work and broad heads get stuck heck I even have arrow heads for fishing.

 

 

NOTE: You want to add "Can not be fired from horseback" to the larger bows. Could you give use a description of these bow and arrows you have made please just so we know better what you are seeing in your minds eye?

[lazarus]

Re: bows and arrows

 

About the points for Magic Items thing... I'd probably just give the characters a name of the thing or something, and write ups as they figure out what it does. That is, when they find out about something, give them the write-up for it.

 

I remember in my dad's old D&D campaign, he'd write down magic items and what they do on cue-cards. I really like that system, as it allows modification of it, giving it around, etc.

 

So - no points for the MIs because you have no clue what they are. If, however, you start with them, you'd pay for them. In my (future) campaign, you can't buy magic items with just $$.

 

Laz

[Markdoc]

Re: bows and arrows

 

What in the name of the seven gods of the yellow valley is an "assault bow"?

 

cheers, Mark

[Ork]

Re: bows and arrows

 

What in the name of the seven gods of the yellow valley is an "assault bow"?

 

its the more or less successful attempt to translate the german term "Kriegsbogen" to a english form. Maybe there is a more appropriate word.

 

Regards,

Ben

[Ork]

Re: bows and arrows

 

NOTE: You want to add "Can not be fired from horseback" to the larger bows. Could you give use a description of these bow and arrows you have made please just so we know better what you are seeing in your minds eye?

 

Hey ..

 

I think i'll post all results on my webpage later on.. including all descriptions, a prefab, maybe some pics, etc. I'll post the URL here late on then ...