Jump to content

The Last Word


Bazza

Recommended Posts

BTW Bazza, I have a book to recommend to you, re: your early influential books idea. A recent book is "To Explain the World" by Steven Weinberg, in which he makes a personal attempt to tease out the beginnings of modern science from its forebears. I have barely started it (just finished chapter 1) but some of the names and themes he addresses are those which seem to be dear to you. Weinberg is a theoretical physicist, and perhaps the closest to a reigning Grand Old Man in physics these days; he is coming at this from the hard science point of view.

 

Cheers. I had a peak into it at Amazon and you are right it is of interest. However the authors statements about religion in general, disinterest me in him personally. So I'm a bit torn... 

 

But thanks for bring it to my attention. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspect, but do not know, that his opinions of religion have been shaped by 80 years of active hostility from the louder portions of the population in the US who identify themselves as religious. Among Weinberg's books is The First Three Minutes, and while physical cosmologists don't get the same knee-jerk "You're all damned and we righteous people rejoice in that, and we have the political clout to have our opinions installed in the the school textbooks no matter what you say, you heathen scum" treatment that American religious fundamentalists give to evolutionary biology, the same undertone is there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspect, but do not know, that his opinions of religion have been shaped by 80 years of active hostility from the louder portions of the population in the US who identify themselves as religious. Among Weinberg's books is The First Three Minutes, and while physical cosmologists don't get the same knee-jerk "You're all damned and we righteous people rejoice in that, and we have the political clout to have our opinions installed in the the school textbooks no matter what you say, you heathen scum" treatment that American religious fundamentalists give to evolutionary biology, the same undertone is there.

 

I thought i had posted this but it seems i didn't. The quotes from him which raise a red flag for me are below. I understand and acknowledge the reasons for his views (well i mostly do), I don't agree with them. 

 

His views on religion were expressed in a speech from 1999 in Washington, D.C.:

"'Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."[17]

He modified his comment in a later article derived from these talks:

"Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery as the punishment of the children of Ham. Mark Twain described his mother as a genuinely good person, whose soft heart pitied even Satan, but who had no doubt about the legitimacy of slavery, because in years of living in antebellum Missouri she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil – that takes religion."[17]

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought i had posted this but it seems i didn't. The quotes from him which raise a red flag for me are below. I understand and acknowledge the reasons for his views (well i mostly do), I don't agree with them.

Actually, that Wikipedia quote you have is pretty much spot on what my guess was about his thinking, and it comes from living in a place where, bluntly, the most visible organized religions are strong forces behind various forms of hate, including forms that target him and his lifework directly. When I lived there I felt largely the same way. Now that I work at an institution operated nominally by a religious order who are more focused on compassion and tolerance (rather than in enforcing a social order in which their adherents are atop the social and political ladder and others are routinely denied full rights), and I live in a community where organized religion has rather lower influence than holds elsewhere in the US, I no longer receive more or less daily stimuli that reinforce the feeling that religious organizations spend most of their time stirring up hate and and organizing hateful measures against those who do not kowtow to their doctrine.

 

I figured you'd write him off because he dismisses the ancient Greeks' efforts at natural philosophy as poetry and not much more, because they valued beautiful ideas only for their beauty, not for their accuracy, and never soiled themselves by holding those ideas up for testing against reality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, that Wikipedia quote you have is pretty much spot on what my guess was about his thinking, and it comes from living in a place where, bluntly, the most visible organized religions are strong forces behind various forms of hate, including forms that target him and his lifework directly. When I lived there I felt largely the same way.

Texas? if so, I can understand where you and him are coming from.

 

(Aside to LM: remember the ep where Sheldon Cooper goes to Texas and has a disagreement about evolution with his mum?)

 

Now that I work at an institution operated nominally by a religious order who are more focused on compassion and tolerance (rather than in enforcing a social order in which their adherents are atop the social and political ladder and others are routinely denied full rights), and I live in a community where organized religion has rather lower influence than holds elsewhere in the US, I no longer receive more or less daily stimuli that reinforce the feeling that religious organizations spend most of their time stirring up hate and and organizing hateful measures against those who do not kowtow to their doctrine.

No worries.

 

I figured you'd write him off because he dismisses the ancient Greeks' efforts at natural philosophy as poetry and not much more, because they valued beautiful ideas only for their beauty, not for their accuracy, and never soiled themselves by holding those ideas up for testing against reality.

Write him off, that is fair, for the most part. I've been wavering in doing do. He wrote a monograph on cosmology which seems to a standard text on the subject which looks interesting.

 

I'm not against science, I'm against the philosophy that underpins it, mainly, scientism (belief that the scientific method is the only viable tool to give reliable knowledge) and anti-realism (disbelief in nonmaterial realm & intelligibles). I've recently come to the point of view seeing the natural science along the lines of journalism. I'll explain that in a later post. That i can discuss this with you shows that science is worthwhile. :thumbup: I may be a fool, but I'm a wise fool. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sigh. I missed this when it happened.

 

Callahan's stuff appeared in a supplement section of the local paper on Sundays in the '80s and '90s, IIRC. The one collection of his I know about takes its title from the second comic in the link: "Don't Worry, He Won't Get Far On Foot."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...