Reconciling Manga & Batman

[steriaca]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Hey... thanks for the concept. I really do like it... and I appreciate folks pulling this thread out of it's innane "Ranma vs. Nightwing" geek crap it fell into. Geez.

 

Yes, I also think it was slightly crappy, and started that part of the thread. I do have one thing to say about it...it was the perfect example of 'superhuman' martial artest agenst 'human' martial artest where there was a chance the human level would win (at least one combat).

 

I'll say no more on that subject.

[Chimpira]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Chimpira... same as Storn. I think the Path idea is really cool... I just have a problem with applying the arbitrary "worthy" concept to disallow supers. It just raises too many questions if you put yourself in the place of a super person in that world. "Why can't I compete? Why can't I use my natural powers the same way that guy uses his natural strength?"

 

Perfect example is Storn's long running character, Vector. High Powered TK... and he actually knows a little Jiujitsu... able to throw and block and grab... with his hands AND with his TK. His TK is a natural ability (no weapons or cybernetics or what-have-you) so combined with a smattering of training (and a shitload of combat experience... like 12 years worth) he'd ANNIHILATE almost any mystic martial artist in my campaign. So... when we as players want to do a Tekken style game... free for all of colorful "fighters" all competing... we are posed with this question? What keeps Vector out of this? He could trounce everyone with relative ease in single combat... he is noble and honorable and a stalwart warrior, so it would be hard to claim him as "unworthy"... and it as players we find an entire genre that we love (martial arts, from gritty to wuxia) pulled apart and left wanting. It's just kind of depressing, that's all. One of those "things that work in comics, but not in games"

 

Well... it does work in a game... but you have to take a very different approach to reconcile it with a consistent game world... and it involves arbitrary rules...

 

... and hoping Vector doesn't get it into his head to kick some ass because he wants a cool trophy of a head with pointy hair!

 

Hey... thanks for the concept. I really do like it... and I appreciate folks pulling this thread out of it's innane "Ranma vs. Nightwing" geek crap it fell into. Geez.

Hmmm. I ran into this once as a player. A fellow player was retiring and the GM wanted to give him a good send off so he put together this adventure where we found ourselves in a competition to determine the new ruler of a world. Now his player was a powerful telepathic named Night Psyche. It should have been a no brainer about whom was going to be the new king. Except that my character, whom was named Jester, Kept beating down everyone. The major problem was that Night Psyche could turn Desolid which meant that he beat most of the competition easily. It was just that his Desolid did not work against electricity and guess what Jester's main attack was. That's right a electrical punch and I moved faster than Night Psyche. It was a pretty good roleplaying as the leader had to convince me to forfeit my claim, especially as Jester was doing it as a lark to prove that he was the baddest mo fo on two worlds. Man that planet was going to kill him when he turned down that crown. As it was the ruling factor turned their back on him and he was publically shamed by declaring that he forfeited to Night Psyche. Believe it or not it was great! We referred to that adventure as 'The Jester who would be King'.

[Clonus]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Maybe I'm analyzing this too much... but I've just found that, before I inserted the more "mystic" or "super" aspects of manga style martial arts into the campaign... there was a place for the Batman/Daredevil/Connor Hawk type PC in my world... and afterward, they just became overshadowed because they couldn't match the raw power of the "martial masters" who could ride the lightning and call down chi-blasts of fire, or whatever.

 

 

There's an example of such a "mundane martial artist" in Naruto, Rock Lee. He took all the points the other guys invested in their multipowers or elementals or whatever and put them in SPD. He holds his own.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Another great blast from the past!

 

Personally, I think the original comparison isn't a good example. Batman scales from street-level to cosmic-level simply by improving detective skills and cranking up his immense gadget pool. If Batman really needs to take on a Superman-level foe, he uses his secondary gadget pool (Changes Only In Lab) to whip up some power armor. He's done this on multiple occasions (Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns and Matt Wagner's Trinity are the two that spring to mind), and had no trouble putting up a good fight.

 

As many people have stated in this thread, human potential goes farther than many people realize. And when the best non-Chi martial artist has hit the limits that a Chi-using martial artist ignores, it's time to whip out gadgets, magical items, or the like. Sure, Shang Chi can't punch through tank armor, but give him a mystical katana that can slice through steel like butter and suddenly he's competitive again.

[Markdoc]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

In game terms' date=' it is easy to tell what a "power" is compared to say, a maneuver... but in conceptual terms, not so much. Is a ch'i blast really a power? Philosophically, it is simply an advanced form of a punch. [/quote']

 

And to me, this is the kernel of your problem: you're blending philosophy (special effects) with effect (mechanics).

 

It's like saying that glass is a liquid (it is), so it shouldn't break when you hit it (but it does). From a crudely mechanical point of view, all that matters is that it breaks when you hit it.

 

So I understand (and to a large extent, sympathise with) your point of view, but I'd summarise the problem as "I've limited the combat abilities of one archetype to keep them more realistic, and now they're limited!"

 

Well.... isn't that what you wanted?

 

It's not even an anime vs western comics thing - in a universe where Karate Kid exists (and keeps popping into the 20th century on a regular basis in various incarnations), Batman can't really claim to be anything more than "pretty good" - they've even fought and Batman won (as usual) by a dirty trick, not fighting skill. And as far as I know, Karate Kid doesn't have any superpowers, so they're a fair match: one's a martial artist (period) the other's a detective who's also a pretty good martial artist. Could Karate Kid tackle Goku? Dunno, but he went toe to toe with Superboy, so it doesn't seem unreasonable...

 

Now I know you said not to focus on the specific characters - I simply used this example to show that the problem is not Ch'i powers versus normal martial arts - it's a result of how you've chosen to define normal martial arts. Within the DC universe you have two unpowered martial artists who span the power range you delineated. You could just as easily have chosen to disallow or severely limit Ch'i powers and still have stayed true to genre. (A different genre, true, but still....)

 

The problem that Storn bought up (breaking/not breaking stuff) is a different, but related one, since it affects people with powers and people without powers equally (it's also genre-independant: the martial artist/tank problem is equivalent to: if a warrior has a magic sword that does 3d6 HKA for its fine edge, can he hack his way through a castle wall?) and that's that DEF on a person behaves differently from DEF on an inanimate object.

 

My solution, rather than a flat cap, would be to limit talents like find weakness and/or attacks with the effect you want in mind. For example, use reduced penetration with "real" martial arts attacks or "cannot affect more than X physical DEF" for Find Weakness and not to get hung up on the "powers" thing.

 

That way against mooks (or each other), Realmartialartsguy and Chiblastlass are dishing out equivalent amounts of STUN damage, but Realmartialartsguy can't physically hurt Supes or punch holes in tanks - whereas Chiblastlass can. Sure, that limits his combat utility a smidgeon, but then assuming similar damage levels, he has a bunch of saved points he can use on other things: and he's still just as "skilled".

 

cheers, Mark

[OddHat]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I'm in agreement with Mark (above), but I'd also add that most of the problem comes from genre mashing in a campaign.

 

Person A has conceptualized his campaign as being about "realistic" street level vigilantes, some of whom happen to be "realistic" master martial artists. His inspirations include movies like Batman Begins, maybe the Jackie Chan Police Story films, maybe the 2006 version of Casino Royal. Characters written for Person A's campaign may easily be 350 points or more, but won't be putting out more than 8 DCs with their best martial arts attacks, their total PD will cap at 15, and guns will still be a serious threat.

 

Person B has conceptualized his campaign as being about classic American Comic Book Superheroes, and he's throwing Chinese wuxia films into the mix. Men in this world can fly, bounce bullets, smash tanks with their fists, and otherwise tell reality to go boink itself. Damage classes with bare hands can be in the 12 DC to 15 DC range, and defenses in the 30+ PD range are common.

 

A character designed for Campaign A is going to be woefully underpowered, as a martial artist, in Campaign B. If you cap "normal" martial artists at Campaign B levels, that's the choice you've made as GM. They'll need to sink those leftover points into superskills, gadgets and luck to keep up with their higher DC and DEF limit foes. That said, if they do sink those extra points into gadgets and superskills, and they're built on the same points, they should end up roughly as powerful as their Wuxia counterparts.

[JmOz]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Well I am coming really late to the party but here is how I handle the difference

 

Humanity is actualy a number of races, the two most important for this one our the normals and the Paragons

 

A normal has 75 points of disads he has to take (not that important, except he needs to take NCM, HCM* and a phys lim heals at 1/2 rate)

 

Characters with NCM are required to take some serious lims on powers (-2 lims on all but tech, tech requires -1 in most cases)

 

Paragons only need to take HCM

 

The various F/X permited by HCM, while open to everyone are considered ecentric skills that take a lifetime to master, so why can't batman fly like Krillin (from DBZ, a human IIRC), it's because A) he never learned how, and He does not have the time (measured in years normaly) to do it

 

*HCM is a varient of NCM, worth 0 points, limits characters to 1.5 NCM, and limited F/X rules (only allowed Tech, Magical, Mental, Ch'i, Intense training)

[Lucius]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I didn't know they were quarreling. Who's "Manga" and what's she got against Batman?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Has not read comic books in a long time, but occasionally feeds one to the palindromedary

[Lucius]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

And some one dead lifting 150 kilos and towing a 3-ton truck with their Wang.

 

 

When I first read this sentence I thought you said you had seen a corpse lifting weights and was very confused....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary reminds me that we're talking about East Asian chi powers not Haitian Voodoo

[Susano]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I didn't know they were quarreling. Who's "Manga" and what's she got against Batman?

 

It's all about the fickleness of the fanbase.

[OddHat]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

The palindromedary reminds me that we're talking about East Asian chi powers not Haitian Voodoo

 

The Qi Gong practitioners who can pull trucks with a crotch harness or tie 300+ pounds to their privates and stand are not fictional; it just takes a lot of training.

[Markdoc]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

The Qi Gong practitioners who can pull trucks with a crotch harness or tie 300+ pounds to their privates and stand are not fictional; it just takes a lot of training.

 

You don't even need qi training - just a certain phlegmatism and practice: I've seen (oh god - for some memory bleach) men lift very heavy weights on a hook driven through their penis and then swing them around. They weren't martial arts masters, they were just S&M freaks.

 

It wasn't even anywhere exotic - Castro district in San Francisco at Halloween a few years back.

 

I suspect however, that we're getting a wee bit off topic

 

cheers, Mark

[Kal'El Wayne]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

First of all, no, I haven't read the entire topic, sorry.

 

Second, sorry to correct anyone who has obviously been on the board a lot longer than me, but Batman can and does cast spells. He's not Zatanna, but he has summoned ghosts in the past, I.E. his contact, the ghost of a dead circus acrobat, Deadman.

 

Thirdly, in a manga universe like Dragonball Z, people like Batman don't exist. You are either an incredible martial artist, in which case you start to be able to throw fireballs because you're just -that- good at martial arts, or you're an average guy and haven't taken a karate lesson in your life. At least, that's how I perceive it.

 

Fourth, in the DC universe, people like the martial artists in manga are not human. They are 'metahuman'. Someone who shoots balls of fire because they got incredibly good at martial arts? Something's not quite normal there.

Batman is still amongst the best -human- fighters in the world. Not to mention, he's amongst the best -fighters-, not martial artists. Martial artists want to perform better martial arts, fighters want to stop the crooks doing what they're doing as quickly as possible. Hence why a saiyan would try fighting Superman by developing new technique after new technique, but Batman just grabs a green rock and starts breaking some ribs. It might take a lot of kryptonite and a hell of a plan, but plans and resources are the Bat's schtick.

 

Batman seems fine with letting Karate Kid/Dragon be the best human martial artists in the world. He's never fought Lady Shiva because she likes to kill anyone she fights and she doesn't want to kill such a good fighter. So he seems to only be the joint best human fighter in the world. But does it matter?

 

If it was possible for just -any- martial artist to kill the Bat, or even just nigh-on kill him, do you really think they would stand a chance against the combined onslaught of all the people who'd avenge him or even the villians that wanted to kill him themselves? And not all of them are gonna refrain from killing, y'know.

[Lucius]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

The Qi Gong practitioners who can pull trucks with a crotch harness or tie 300+ pounds to their privates and stand are not fictional; it just takes a lot of training.

 

Uh, I didn't say anything was ficitonal; I was saying that I had initially misunderstood the sentence as saying that a dead man was lifting weights. The palindromedary's reference to voodoo was because if we were talking about that, we might be discussing how much weight a zombie can lift. I read "Someone dead lifting" and misconstrued it as "someone dead" "lifting" not as "someone" "dead lifting."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary explains that Lucius is often inordinately amused by his own stupidity.

[input.jack]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Batman has no powers.

 

Dragonball Z people do.

 

Batman is -one of- the greatest martial artists in the DCU. Not the greatest, But one of them.

 

Dragonball Z characters are on a scale that makes Superman look wimpy.

 

I reconcile this disparity by NOT comparing them. I wouldnt allow DBZ characters into my supers games, because they arent on an appropriate scale, and are from a totally different genre.

 

But thats me.