Does Hero need...

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by tesuji

i have the same experiences. In the lit/source, there are plenty of cases of limited invulnerability... some more vulnerable than others.

 

A ghost that is indestructable by any normal means but who, by finding his bones and brying them in sacred ground can be dispelled is one such example. A scenario involving such could provide good horror potential with "the unstoppable foe" as the heroes try basic physical means to stop the ghost and watch in horror as he works his way thru a family tree pruning as he goes finally have to research, explore, and solve the mystery and dig his bones out of the cellar wall and give them a proper burial before he gets to one of the PC's branch on the family tree instead of relying on "if i roll good enough i can hurt it!" to stop the bad guy.

 

IMo that type of mystic adversary would be rather silly if we instituted an "oh and on a lucky enough roll with a ballbat you could kill him" so as to give "chance" its "proper" due.

 

Still, if the majority of experienced herophiles say the system wont handle it, they might be right. Maybe HERO isn't the system for such stories. (Not my view, but i could be convinced.)

Funny, the HERO Systems already does that. It's called Desolidification. Of course, Desolid doesn't actually make you invulnerable, it just removes you from the ability to affect and be affected by other characters. But ultimately, that's the same effect. And it suddenly gets very expensive if you want to affect others even though they can't affect you.

 

I thought the whole point of this thread was to discuss methods of creating or inventing Invulnerability and Never Miss without using established methods presented in published books and used by HERO GMs everywhere.

[Al_Beddow]

Originally posted by Blue

I know I've chimed in on this already, but I'd like to complete it by saying There should Always be something tougher than you. If you're the pinnacle (invincible) what's the point?

 

And if I had an absolute invincibility of some kind, every PC would want it. I'm not startin' that slippery slope.

 

EXACTLY!

 

I mean even Superman, when he lost his vulnerability to Kryptonite, he was still vulnerable to MAGIC. {fondly remembers Zatana and her fishnet stockings w/high heels}

 

as has been said... if a character (PC or NPC) has true and absolute invulnerability, then what is the point? They can't be hurt, can't be beat, etc.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Al_Beddow

EXACTLY!

 

I mean even Superman, when he lost his vulnerability to Kryptonite, he was still vulnerable to MAGIC. {fondly remembers Zatana and her fishnet stockings w/high heels}

 

as has been said... if a character (PC or NPC) has true and absolute invulnerability, then what is the point? They can't be hurt, can't be beat, etc.

 

Can still be role played, though. Even if such a character were allowed, while there might be no challenge in combat, there would be plenty of other ways to challenge the character.

 

In any event, no one is talking about absolute invulnerability. Superman from your example could have infinite PD and ED and still be vulnerable to magic, after all: either the defenses have the Limitation, Not Against Magic, or magic works against alternate defenses and bypasses them entirely. Derek's concept for absolute defense, as another example, was invulnerability to one thing: just because the Human Torch can't be burned doesn't mean he can't be shot.

[tesuji]

[/b]

 

Originally posted by Dust Raven

Funny, the HERO Systems already does that. It's called Desolidification.

if you had been keeping up, you will find me mentioning this multiple times already.

Originally posted by Dust Raven

Of course, Desolid doesn't actually make you invulnerable, it just removes you from the ability to affect and be affected by other characters. But ultimately, that's the same effect. And it suddenly gets very expensive if you want to affect others even though they can't affect you.

Unless you are dealing with some of the options for waiving this extra cost when dealing with "only to stop damage" styles of desolid as presented in FRED.

 

Again, this has already been covered.

Originally posted by Dust Raven

I thought the whole point of this thread was to discuss methods of creating or inventing Invulnerability and Never Miss without using established methods presented in published books and used by HERO GMs everywhere.

 

Then you haven't been keeping up.

 

By the sixth post in this thread, the original poster had already opened it up to include limited invulnerabilities as well as defined his meaning behind never miss which included attacks which require no to hit roll but still would require a condition be met (being heard for instance.)

[Vondy]

My objection to deso is that the -1 limitation for "only v damage" is for a narrow special effect. For "all PD/ED damage" it should be -0. And the character should still be vulnerable to adjustment powers, ego powers, NNDs (though life support will cover a lot of those), and AVLDs (same as NNDs). I also

 

Deso, Only Versus Damage, 0 End, Persistent, Inherent. 90 Points.

 

The mechanic does work conceptually, though I'd probably never allow it. And interesting lim on this might be "subject to con stun." The character can be stunned (superman is now and again), but is still immune to actually getting hurt (mostly).

 

The reason I don't want it in the book is because - once it becomes official - it becomes more acrimonious when you say no.

[Doc Democracy]

Originally posted by tesuji

A ghost that is indestructable by any normal means but who, by finding his bones and brying them in sacred ground can be dispelled is one such example.

 

[...]

 

IMO that type of mystic adversary would be rather silly if we instituted an "oh and on a lucky enough roll with a ballbat you could kill him" so as to give "chance" its "proper" due.

 

IMO that ghost is a plot device that needs no statistical write-up. If there is only one way to defeat it then the scenario is about the heroes finding out what that way is. Obviously you can run combats but the ghost is quite removed from the statistical battle taking place.

 

A good scenario is possible from this, given the right players , but you are making a decision at the planning stage to remove any combat/power mediated means of success. Thus why invent a power for a plot device?

 

I know that one of my most successful games was a haunted house style adventure where the basis was an all powerful mental illusionist/mind controller. I didn't write up the powers of the protagonist as I didn't want to roll dice - it was a plot device that funnelled the players to the place I wanted them. It was an all-powerful power - virtually no defence (one player had a defence but switched it off and then couldn't switch it back on).

 

The players loved it because they could see there was no way round it and went with the story and trusted me not to screw them over. Your scenario would likely be the same - and still not require any new rules - there are no rules required for a plot device.

 

Doc

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by tesuji

if you had been keeping up, you will find me mentioning this multiple times already.

I've certainly noticed, which is why I mentioned it.

 

Unless you are dealing with some of the options for waiving this extra cost when dealing with "only to stop damage" styles of desolid as presented in FRED.

 

Again, this has already been covered.

 

I don't think this is the best way. Certainly the most effective way of simulating invulnerability. You end up with a Power that's techinally legal, but doesn't fit every definition of "invulnerable".

 

Then you haven't been keeping up.

Gimme a sec while I refuel my rocket skates .

[tesuji]

[/b]

 

Originally posted by Doc Democracy

IMO that ghost is a plot device that needs no statistical write-up. If there is only one way to defeat it then the scenario is about the heroes finding out what that way is. Obviously you can run combats but the ghost is quite removed from the statistical battle taking place.

Well, of course, a GM is free to decide whether or not he needs to write up his NPCs or not and whether he needs to point them out down to the disads, run them free form with a scribbled line or three, or anywhere in between.

 

I have run many a HERo scenario where the enemy superteam was nothing more than names on a paper which i referenced many times cautiously... to give my players the impression it was actually stats instead of my grocery list. i have also had NPCs who were completely pointed out down to skill level bonuses.

 

i imagine there are other DMS who span that gap as well.

 

However, while for some its fine to not stat out the NPCs, for others these things have weight. heck, the whole "hero balances things if you do the math" thing kind of urges those who believe to stat out the NPCs.

 

There are books published for HERo filled with vehicles statted out to the nth degree, starships, solar sail drives, hyperspace drives etc... many of whom for most campaigns will never be anything more than a NPC akin to a plot device.

 

So, while i can definitely understand your preference for not statting such things out, surely you realize that among hero players there are those who will want these characters like the ghost i just mentioned to be statted fully, to give them the satisfaction of doing it or maybe the comfy sense of balance the points adding up provides.

Originally posted by Doc Democracy

A good scenario is possible from this, given the right players , but you are making a decision at the planning stage to remove any combat/power mediated means of success. Thus why invent a power for a plot device?

For all the reasons any NPC gets statted, any starship gets statted or the hyperdrive on the scout ship gets statted... to gain all the benefits the point system provides.

Originally posted by Doc Democracy

I know that one of my most successful games was a haunted house style adventure where the basis was an all powerful mental illusionist/mind controller. I didn't write up the powers of the protagonist as I didn't want to roll dice - it was a plot device that funnelled the players to the place I wanted them. It was an all-powerful power - virtually no defence (one player had a defence but switched it off and then couldn't switch it back on).

I think i can safely say that not statting the NPCs so you dont have to roll dice is not a very common trait among HERO gamers. :-) The exception perhaps, not the norm. So perhaps you can understand why "how to do it" is being discussed?

Originally posted by Doc Democracy

The players loved it because they could see there was no way round it and went with the story and trusted me not to screw them over. Your scenario would likely be the same - and still not require any new rules - there are no rules required for a plot device.

Thats great that you dont feel the need to stat the NPC protagonist in this case.

 

I hope you can see that some Gms might want more specs on the primary antagonist in the story. They might want specs on its chance to hit, its damage done, its ego rolls to avoid being distracted or taunted, its int rolls to work its way thru subterfuge or per rolls to search for hiding potential victims.

 

See, and i know this may be hard for some hero guys to get, just because you cannot beat it with a stick, just because by combat you cannot stun it and knock it unconscious, doesn't mean you are unable to affect it, to delay it, to maybe even for a time thwart its goals while you try and solve the puzzle as to how to permanently stop it.

 

If you consider that your players might try and hide the victim, to put the victim in a car and drive away, to try anf dool the ghost into going the wrong way with subterfuge and guile, then you might, as a GM, want some of those traits (perception, intelligence, ego, psyche lims) expressed mechanically.

 

In other words, even for HERO players, not being able to beat it with a stick does not equate to "its a plot device" and remove any sense or reason for iy having capabilities including limitations.

 

Heck, for those who don't see beating it with a stick as the be all and end all for whether you need info and detail, the fact that combat is out of the picture is a GOOD REASON to have as much info as possible on its other characteristics... in other words... stats are MORE important, not less, when the normal routine obvious beat it with a stick solution is removed.

 

For some, obviously not for all.

[tesuji]

[/b]

 

Originally posted by Dust Raven

 

I don't think this is the best way. Certainly the most effective way of simulating invulnerability. You end up with a Power that's techinally legal, but doesn't fit every definition of "invulnerable".

uhh, ok i am sorry but is there a hero power which fits every definition of the power it represents?

 

EB certainly doesn't fit every definition of an energy blast... foir that we need NNDs, APs, RKAs etc. Flight doesn't fit every definition of flight... for that we need FTL, megascale, etc...

 

if your criteria for being a good power includes fitting every definition of the general power, which hero powers do meet those criteria?

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by tesuji

 

 

uhh, ok i am sorry but is there a hero power which fits every definition of the power it represents?

 

EB certainly doesn't fit every definition of an energy blast... foir that we need NNDs, APs, RKAs etc. Flight doesn't fit every definition of flight... for that we need FTL, megascale, etc...

 

if your criteria for being a good power includes fitting every definition of the general power, which hero powers do meet those criteria? [/b]

 

Sorry, strike that. Please insert "reasonable number" where I said "every."

 

The idea behind Desol is twofold. First, to walk through walls. Second, to become unaffected by nearly everything at a the price of not being able to affect anything yourself. Even limited to represent invulnerability to a specific SFX defies this, unless the character can't interact with those SFXs at all (invulnerability to fire means that any attacks against a fire character are considered Desol). This isn't the case, however, mostly because it doesn't make sense. Because of this inconsistancy I prefer to use Powers designed to prevent damage while allowing the character full effect in combat situations (Armor, FF, Damage Reduciton, etc). I've even worked up a clunky Absorption/Damage Reduction combo, but it works great.