Does Hero need...

[nexus]

Mechanics for:

 

Attacks that normally do not miss

 

True Invulnerability

 

In your opinion. Or would it would be damaging to the system as a whole to introduce such things?

[Mike W]

You don't really need True Invulnerability when you have 75% Damage Reduction. Combine that with 40 points of DEF and a high STUN total and you might as well be invulnerable to everything. And you can get virtually unmissable attacks by giving a character just a few CSLs. I also think that there should be a little chance to miss, no matter what -and not just on 18. But then, at 14- you're at 90% to hit.

[Blue]

I don't believe in attacks that never miss. And it's not that hard, if you have tons of points (like a GM) to make someone effectively invulnerable.

 

Either would be a fault in any game system, in my opinion.

[Hugh Neilson]

Attacks that don't normally miss? Area Effect 1 hex accurate and Line of Sight means you only need to hit DCV 3 at any distance. An OCV 6 means you'll hit on 17- unless the target dodges, dives for cover, etc.

 

Invulnerability? Desolid only to protect against damage and buy all your attacks "affects solid world". A big force wall can also do the trick quite nicely.

 

Exoensive? You bet - but these are powerful abilities, so they shouldn't come cheap.

[TheEmerged]

The game mechanic in me says there should always be a way. The GM that has played numerous systems since 1979 however says that these two mechanics as well as the "always does damage" mechanic cause far more problems than they're worth -- and players always want them cheaper than they should cost.

 

Bottom line? I say you're better off without them, the approximations HERO has work well enough.

[nexus]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Attacks that don't normally miss? Area Effect 1 hex accurate and Line of Sight means you only need to hit DCV 3 at any distance. An OCV 6 means you'll hit on 17- unless the target dodges, dives for cover, etc.

 

Invulnerability? Desolid only to protect against damage and buy all your attacks "affects solid world". A big force wall can also do the trick quite nicely.

 

Exoensive? You bet - but these are powerful abilities, so they shouldn't come cheap.

 

Perhaps I should clarify. For an attack that doesn't miss as an example'

 

A magical spell, a word of power that does damage when the heard. No roll to hit, no dodge. It just does damage. Or a Voodoo doll type effect.

 

What about limited Invulnerability such as being Invulnerable to Cold based attacks. With the Desolid route you would still have to by all your attacks Affects Real World.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Does Hero need...

 

Originally posted by nexus

Attacks that normally do not miss

True Invulnerability

I think the HERO System can already handle these reasonably well, and can handle them fully with only the most minor house rules. For example...

 

An attack that does not miss is nearly simulated by adding Area Effect: 1 Hex Accurate and several Combat Skill Levels. You can easily bump this over to a true "no-miss" attack by making a house rule saying that an OCV of 10 or higher with an Area Effect 1 Hex Accurate power has no chance of missing, even on an 18.

 

Invulnerability can be approximated with a combination of DEF and Damage Reduction. I would probably house rule "true" invulnerability by basing the cost on Damage Reduction. The cost of "100%" Damage Reduction would be the same as 3/4 Resistant Damage Reduction, but would work only against a single, relatively common, special effect (for no Limitation value). If the SFX it works against is more narrow than that, the GM could allow a Limitation based on how much narrower he or she thought it was.

[Metaphysician]

Well, if all you are is invulnerable to one specific effect, you could simply buy 100% resistant damage reduction, at 120 points, with a limit based on how narrowly it is effective. While this would be highly illegal by default, I don't see why it wouldn't necessarily be bad for specific invincibility. Even an extremely limited invulnerability would cost about 60 points.

 

As for the autohit spells, you could build them BOECV.

[badger3k]

While it might be nice to have something like that, trying to balance it within the system would make it about what it is now. For invulnerability, the desolid option can be used for that as well. For the always hit, double stack some AoE advantages (its done in FHG).

 

Somewhat expensive, but it's already in the system without having to add something new and all the problems that go with it.

[sbarron]

Originally posted by nexus

A magical spell, a word of power that does damage when the heard. No roll to hit, no dodge. It just does damage. Or a Voodoo doll type effect.

 

What about limited Invulnerability such as being Invulnerable to Cold based attacks. With the Desolid route you would still have to by all your attacks Affects Real World.

 

I think that what people are saying is that if you want to simulate effects like this, you can do so if you are creative with the existing rules.

 

Power word: NND EB AOE, defense being can't hear the words, incantations.

 

Invulnerable to cold: (Mike W has the right idea) 75% Damage

Reduction, only vs cold (-1) 40 points of DEF Only vs. Cold (-1). Sure, you could take some stun on really high end cold attacks. But its simple enough to attribute the little damage that leaks through to the concussive force of the blast...

 

Voodoo Doll: They had one of these in the old Horror Hero. How to do it would depend on what you want, but you could model something pretty close...

 

So in answer to your question, yes, I think it would be damaging to the system to introduce these. Absolutes are fine for comics. But if you are looking for balance, I think it's best to shy away from them.

[Arthur]

Re: Does Hero need...

 

Originally posted by nexus

Mechanics for:

 

Attacks that normally do not miss

 

True Invulnerability

 

Hero is a point-based system that uses the set of positive integers. It is an elementary axiom of mathematics that for any integer n there is a larger integer n+1.

 

How does this apply to Hero?

 

Simple.

 

You cannot truly have an absolute within a point-based system. Not without introducing a discontinuity, effectively defining something outside of the system.

 

In other words, the only real way to have an "attack that never misses" is to have an infinite OCV. The only way to have Total Invulnerability is to have an infinite number of points in defenses.

[nexus]

Re: Re: Does Hero need...

 

Originally posted by Arthur

Hero is a point-based system that uses the set of positive integers. It is an elementary axiom of mathematics that for any integer n there is a larger integer n+1.

 

How does this apply to Hero?

 

Simple.

 

You cannot truly have an absolute within a point-based system. Not without introducing a discontinuity, effectively defining something outside of the system.

 

In other words, the only real way to have an "attack that never misses" is to have an infinite OCV. The only way to have Total Invulnerability is to have an infinite number of points in defenses.

 

I am aware of that. Those rules would be exceptions. There are things in Hero that are "absolute" but don't cost infinite points. The question was if such mechanics were "nessecary" to create certain effects.

[Pegasus]

The Hero system does have some absolutes, though. As has already been pointed out, desolid is in there, as is NND. These both exist as all or nothing powers, which defies the point based convention. Personally, I hate when people use desolid to mimic invulnerability, but it's become somewhat common these days.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by nexus

What about limited Invulnerability such as being Invulnerable to Cold based attacks. With the Desolid route you would still have to by all your attacks Affects Real World.

 

I believe the rules already suggest that, for such narrow effects, the "affects real world" advantage should not be required. An optional rule, but very easy to implement if you want the "narrow invulnerability" option.

[GamePhil]

I don't think it would necessarily damage the system: there are a number of abilities that are easily abused that are left to the GM to restrict. These types of absolute abilites would be among those.

 

At the same time, however, they are not really necessary. There are ways of doing any of these already in the game. There is a section in Fantasy Hero, for example, on modifying the game world assumptions to allow for absolute powers, among other things. And, of course, there are always house rules.

[Toadmaster]

Basically these powers are already in HERO, the GM just needs to determine the cost for the specific game. For example, attack never misses, area effect 1 hex, only can effect one character, +7 OCV, (even a character with a CV of 3 will still hit the hex on anything but an 18) buy the attack twice, the odds of rolling an 18 twice are so high that it isn't worth worrying about and as GM you could fudge it and not require a roll. Just figure the cost of the attack and double the cost to say it never misses.

 

For invulnerability figure out the largest attack you will allow in the game, figure out the DEF required to defeat it and tell the players invulnerability costs that much. You don't need to explain the method of finding the cost to the players. Simple and does not put anything out of wack in the HERO system. The only down side is the players need to understand that these "powers" may not work as advertised outside your specific game world.

 

These powers would be expensive but justifiably so.

[JmOz]

True, but you can fake it pretty well, take always hits:

 

OCV+11-DCV=Target Number on 3d6

3d6 Max at 18, so

 

OCV+11-DCV=18. Problem is we have two variables that will be effected, so we have to eliminate one. IN HERO we can do this for a +1/2 modifier called Accuracy so:

 

OCV+11-3=18

OCV+8=18

OCV=10

 

Power must take the Accuracy modifier, and have an OCV

 

IF RANGED it must also take No Range Modifier

It should probably also take about 10 PSL for location/size

[BNakagawa]

The fundamental problem with absolutes is that it violates some pretty core meta-rules.

 

The basic issue is that most things come down to the interaction of the points you spent and the points I spent.

 

If I spent a buttload of points on DCV, then I expect that you won't be hitting me without spending a buttload of points on OCV. Anything that allows an attack to hit automatically screws with this balance since now a fixed amount of points can render an unlimited number of points irrelevant.

 

Same problem with invulnerability. If you spend N points on being invulnerable to something and I spend 100xN points on an attack using that something as the sfx, I'm going to feel awfully cheated.

 

$0.02

[AlHazred]

Originally posted by nexus

A magical spell, a word of power that does damage when the heard. No roll to hit, no dodge. It just does damage. Or a Voodoo doll type effect.

 

For the Voodoo doll, check out Doll Magic in Fantasy Hero Grimoire, in the Witchcraft section. A huge number of points, as it should be for such powerful effects.

[tesuji]

[/b]

 

Originally posted by BNakagawa

The fundamental problem with absolutes is that it violates some pretty core meta-rules.

It may be just me but, if you want to be an "untimate tookit" then it would seem violating meta rules should be a consideration second place to being both ultimate and toolkit.

Originally posted by BNakagawa

The basic issue is that most things come down to the interaction of the points you spent and the points I spent.

 

If I spent a buttload of points on DCV, then I expect that you won't be hitting me without spending a buttload of points on OCV. Anything that allows an attack to hit automatically screws with this balance since now a fixed amount of points can render an unlimited number of points irrelevant.

So, for instance, if you spent the buttload of points on DCv and i hit you with an area effect attacks or a mental attack, both of who ignore completely and laugh outload at your massive investment (assuming a large butt) of points, then have i violated this metarule?

 

Isn't it well accepted in HERO that there ARE ways around huge expenditures of points? isn't it a fact that in hero going head to head with my buttload of points vs your buttload of points is very commonly not the chosen means of getting things done?

 

Brick spends a large amount of points on Defenses... hit him with NNDs, drains and other attacks that COMPLETELY BYPASS the buttload of points spend on defense.

 

Speedster spends a ton on Dex and DCV so you hit him with area attacks and mental attacks to COMPLETELY BYPASS the buttloads of points spent on DCV.

 

Wont a 6d6 60 ap mental blast make an unlimited amount of PD, ED, and DCV irrelevent and isn't that accepted and fine and dandy within hero?

 

Why is bypassing DCV for a fixed fine as long as it uses an already in print HERo mechanism OK fine and dandy but doing so with an as of yet unprinted mechanism a violation of the meta rules?

 

Originally posted by BNakagawa

Same problem with invulnerability. If you spend N points on being invulnerable to something and I spend 100xN points on an attack using that something as the sfx, I'm going to feel awfully cheated.

 

NNDs, AVLDs, mental blast, etc... these will all bypass 100xn points on defense... why shouldn't the reverse be possible?

 

If the ultimate toolkit cannot handle, will break down, cause ripping of the spot welds in the space time continuum handling "never misses" when that is an aspect which occurs in some genres the game may well try and handle... then its not all that ultimate and not that good a toolkit.

 

Note: this is not saying that these genre elements like "never misses" are not issues deserving of a stop sign and words mentioning the oibvious potential problems and need for Gm oversight, but HERO is rife with the need for Gm oversight, so one more shouldn't hurt.

 

The day i sacrifice genre, flavor or feel for fear of violating a metarule is the day i hang up my dice.

[nexus]

Originally posted by BNakagawa

The fundamental problem with absolutes is that it violates some pretty core meta-rules.

 

The basic issue is that most things come down to the interaction of the points you spent and the points I spent.

 

If I spent a buttload of points on DCV, then I expect that you won't be hitting me without spending a buttload of points on OCV. Anything that allows an attack to hit automatically screws with this balance since now a fixed amount of points can render an unlimited number of points irrelevant.

 

Same problem with invulnerability. If you spend N points on being invulnerable to something and I spend 100xN points on an attack using that something as the sfx, I'm going to feel awfully cheated.

 

$0.02

 

What about Invisibility? I buy my Visual Perception roll up to 100 or less. You spend a fixed amount of points on Invisibility to the Sight Group. I can't see you. Now, I can buy another Targetting Sense, but you can also buy an attack of another special effect to my Invulnerability and absolutely no increase in cost. If I get a NND:gas attack and you get the right life support, that gas attack is negaged despite my having spend more points on it.

 

I'm not trying to be jerk and I hope I'm not coming off as one, but things like Invulnerablity, at least to certain things, aren't uncommon in the type of material Hero is typically used to simulate. Such a thing would have words of caution attached to it, of course.

[Doc Democracy]

I think the biggest problem about ultimate powers is when they clash.

 

I have a power that is irresistable whereas my target has true invulnerability. Who wins? If I'm the player I want my invulnerability to be total - I don't want some half assed GM telling me that this particular NPC has a power that hurts me. I'm INVULNERABLE!!

 

Same with the person who has an attack that never misses coming up against someone with the ultimate dodge skill. What trumps what??

 

I'm not sure that the core material even merits such things. Sure, D&D has magic missile but since when has D&D been genre material? Superman is classed as invulnerable but there have been plenty of people that have damaged him some of them seriously. Essentially Superman is just VERY tough and not many people are in the same combat class as him. Put up against his peers he is just as vulnerable as they are.

 

I think that if a player wants a character that is invunerable you have to give him powers that make him effectively invulnerable in most situations and put him in those situations often enough that they get the kick they are looking for.

 

 

Doc

[tesuji]

[/b]

 

Originally posted by Doc Democracy

I think the biggest problem about ultimate powers is when they clash.

 

I have a power that is irresistable whereas my target has true invulnerability. Who wins? If I'm the player I want my invulnerability to be total - I don't want some half assed GM telling me that this particular NPC has a power that hurts me. I'm INVULNERABLE!!

 

Same with the person who has an attack that never misses coming up against someone with the ultimate dodge skill. What trumps what??

This is simply a case of POWER DEFINITION. Just like any other HERo power, the scope has to be defined when the power is created.

 

Sure, a Gm could permit in his games an "auot hits" power and a "auot avoids" power and decide for grins and giggle not to resolve the clashh at power definition, using the SFX, but thats just a case of sloppy definition.

 

Originally posted by Doc Democracy

I'm not sure that the core material even merits such things. Sure, D&D has magic missile but since when has D&D been genre material?

Wasn't bullsye for the longest time "never misses guy"? That was his "power" as i recall. its not just DND. (Thus nimbly avoidning the notion of DND actually qualifying as GENRE by dint of the mass amount of novels and even a movie following its setting.)

Originally posted by Doc Democracy

Superman is classed as invulnerable but there have been plenty of people that have damaged him some of them seriously. Essentially Superman is just VERY tough and not many people are in the same combat class as him. Put up against his peers he is just as vulnerable as they are.

HE just avoids stun lottos a lot? :-)

 

Actually most of the invulnerables i have seen are more a case of vs a particular effect... like a creature made of living flame being immune to fire. Another such case would be ghosts or the like needing specific means to destroy them. Consider the spectral warriors in LOTR.

 

Actually, just consider... n HERo now, most desolid guys are in fact invulnerable to a lot of different effects, only vulnerable to a specific set.

 

Originally posted by Doc Democracy

I think that if a player wants a character that is invunerable you have to give him powers that make him effectively invulnerable in most situations and put him in those situations often enough that they get the kick they are looking for.

 

So, script the invulnerability instead of making it an actual matter of character?

 

Why not do both? If you are going to allow him IN ACTUAL PLAY to have the invulnerability seen often enough to make him happy, why not also let him write it on his sheet as "invulnerable: the power"? Why is it better to go to chargen extremes to avoid having a defined "invulnerable power"when you intend to script it to be that way IN PLAY?

 

In truth, desolid in 5th is close to invulnerable... if you take the options provided. Heck, its pretty close to the comics for say classic supes... a built in weakness which bypasses his invulnerability.

[Lord Liaden]

The two main issues raised - "invulnerability" and "never missing" - are rather different ones when looking at the source material. Never missing is a not uncommon feature of mythological weapons; Thor's hammer and Odin's spear had this quality, for example. As has been pointed out on this thread, it's possible to build attacks that for all intents and purposes never miss, except for the slight chance of rolling a "natural" 18 on 3D6. Considering that this would be a very potent ability for a GM to allow for a PC, we could assume that if he did it was because he wanted such an absolute attack in his game. If so, IMHO the GM would be justified in ignoring rolling for the attack and just assuming it always hits. There's really no need to include a game mechanic you don't really want that would hardly ever come up anyway.

 

Invulnerability is a different matter, though. When this appears in legend or fantasy fiction, it's usually for creatures who can't be harmed by certain substances or forces, like fire elementals who can't be burned, or only by certain substances or forces, such as werewolves only being harmed by silver weapons. The degree of invulnerability may be limited by the scale of the attacks used within the genre, though. If a werewolf isn't normally injured by iron weapons, does that mean he won't feel an Abrams tank being dropped on his head? Will a fire elemental be just fine if you throw it into a star? I remember a demon in a past story arc for Buffy the Vampire Slayer who could be harmed by "no weapon forged by man" - but that was many centuries ago. Didn't quite hold up when Buffy took a rocket launcher to him.

 

In comic books, as someone mentioned here earlier, "invulnerability" is mostly relative. Even in Superman's most ludicrously overpowered incarnation, when he could sunbathe in the core of the sun, he could still be harmed by sufficient force. If you do want an absolute invulnerability in your game the Limited Desolid approach works pretty well. Now, I've often heard protests about this approach still leaving the character vulnerable to Affects Desolid attacks. IMO it's necessary for play balance to allow characters with this capabilty versus opponents with a "blanket" Desolid Invulnerability; but note that in source material the invulnerable character is almost always vulnerable to something. It's not unreasonable to assume that an Affects Desolid attack falls within the parameters of what it's vulnerable to. OTOH if we're dealing with a very Limited Desolid Invulnerability to narrowly restricted phenomena, the rules already allow for the GM to choose to ignore the "Affects Solid World" Advantage requirement for attacks used by that character. I'd say there's enough precedent there for a GM to say that Affects Desolid attacks don't affect the target either, unless their SFX fall within what would harm the Desolid target anyway.

 

Bottom line; these two absolutes are already doable in HERO System for all practical purposes. They would only "break the system" if you insist on rigid adherence to the rules as written, which even the rules themselves don't demand.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Crisis

The Hero system does have some absolutes, though. As has already been pointed out, desolid is in there, as is NND. These both exist as all or nothing powers, which defies the point based convention. Personally, I hate when people use desolid to mimic invulnerability, but it's become somewhat common these days.

 

NND and Desol aren't really absolutes. Being "all or nothing" is just that. An absolute would be, well, just "all."

 

 

I don't feel HERO System bould benifit from the addition of absolutes such as "Never Miss" or "Invulnerability." Mechanically, the value of these Powers or Modifiers would have to be so high as to make them affordable/useful in only the most cosmic level of campaigns (where creative use of Powers and such would almost always find cheap ways of negating either, anyway). Practically, it just isn't balanced.