little man big sword

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Ndreare

Slap the player in the head

 

I'm with Ndreare on this one.

[Blackout]

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme

Uh, I almost hate to say this, but 3 foot 15 STR is *proportionately* the same as STR 30 for a human sized character: It *is* superhuman. Could you use an aluminium sword that length? 'Cause for the weight, that's what it is to the little guy.

 

Um...yes and no.

 

Height and weight play a HUGE part in what you can do with a massive STR (at least in the real world).

 

I'm almost ashamed to admit it, but I get a huge kick outta watching World's Strongest Man competitions. In every one I've ever seen, the shorter, lighter guys are at a disadvantage in many events.

 

Bending steel rods? The taller guys with longer arms get much better leverage.

 

Let's use an example event from one of the competitions and apply it directly to our "halfling" character in question: holding a 60 pound weight straight out from your body at shoulder height. Oh, you can't have one leg in front of the other, either. The short character we're talking about wouldn't be able to do this for one second. Sure, he could lift the weight with no problem...but, as soon as he extends his arms, he's gonna fall forward because 60 pounds is almost three times his personal weight. He just doesn't have the mass to counteract the weight he's trying to deal with.

 

The same thing applies to the sword... A two-handed/great sword/claymore is going to weigh nearly HALF of what the character does. The problem I have with this scenario (little-guy big-sword) is all about mass, rather than strength.

 

Again, I'm not saying he shouldn't be able to use the sword, just that he'd have all sorts of penalties doing so. Even though he's strong enough, he just doesn't weigh enough.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Yamo

As a GM, I would rule that the character's small/light Physical Limitation (he does have one, right?) is more than enough justification to deny him the ability to use a massive sword. That's what Disadvantages are for.

 

Fool that I was, I left such things up to (un)common sense. Even if such a character DIDN'T have the disad of "small - has problems with humans sized things" I would still rule that a small character couldn't wear human sized plate armor and use a tower shield.

 

No "small people" characters have been made yet so I suppose it isn't too late to make a change. Knowing the player in question, he'll probably get grouchy about it and deserve the slap in the head.

[Beetle]

You left something to common sense? Isn't that the reason for most GM/Player problems?

[Old Man]

Followed closely by the tendency for munchkins to bend common sense in order to promote their sick little agenda. After all, how many of us can say with certainty that a 3 foot tall person strong enough to deadlift 200 kilos can't effectively swing a claymore? Have we ever seen one try? Well then.

[The Mad GM]

I still think you could get all new furniture with the 2x4 idea.

[Ndreare]

Originally posted by Old Man

Followed closely by the tendency for munchkins to bend common sense in order to promote their sick little agenda. After all, how many of us can say with certainty that a 3 foot tall person strong enough to deadlift 200 kilos can't effectively swing a claymore? Have we ever seen one try? Well then.

 

You may joke on this but I have a player that thinks in this very light.

 

He often uses circular logic jumps in the same way as Monty python or Douglas Adams. Then when I in my completely irrational way tell him “No your character still takes damage from fire†he follows with “Whatever you just refuse to compromiseâ€.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Ndreare

You may joke on this but I have a player that thinks in this very light.

 

He often uses circular logic jumps in the same way as Monty python or Douglas Adams. Then when I in my completely irrational way tell him “No your character still takes damage from fire†he follows with “Whatever you just refuse to compromiseâ€.

 

When he says “Whatever you just refuse to compromise†respond with: "Yes."

[Beetle]

After all, how many of us can say with certainty that a 3 foot tall person strong enough to deadlift 200 kilos can't effectively swing a claymore?

You could offer to cut the player in half and see if he's able to use a claymore in that state. If he can, than his character can.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Beetle

You could offer to cut the player in half and see if he's able to use a claymore in that state. If he can, than his character can.

 

Now that's my kind of compromise!

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Ndreare

He often uses circular logic jumps in the same way as Monty python or Douglas Adams. Then when I in my completely irrational way tell him “No your character still takes damage from fire†he follows with “Whatever you just refuse to compromiseâ€.

 

That's the sort of statement that would have me reaching for the Wandering Damage table. But then again my inability to deal with munchkins and verbally abusive players is why I never liked GMing in the first place. Whatever the group, there was always at least one guy that would take up a majority of my GMing time with arguments. I always found it easier to deal with them as a player than as the target of their warped mindset.

"Hey, Old Man, my character needs healing."

"So he does."

"So heal me! You're the healer."

"Yeah, but I took a psychlim 'total lack of sympathy for assholes (freq, tot)', see?"

"Are you saying my character is an asshole?"

"No. I'm saying you're an asshole."

"Fine, let's see how your healer likes my falchion in his brainpan."

"Oo, scary. You have an impairing arm wound, remember?"

[Rage]

Originally posted by MarkusDark

The Sauron Size ring is magical and 'resizes' itself to the wearer. It was even depicted in the first movie in the Prologue.

 

As for a 3' person swinging a 5' sword, it is a matter of manuvering and leverage and nothing to do with strength. Forget about the 2x4 as afterall the character is supposedly a trained adventurer and everything, has a 15 strength meanwhile your average gamer has half that and so on. Dunno what the 10 pound weight at the end is suppose to represent as that basically adds over a hundred pounds to the wood as well as change the HELL out of the balance (insert exponential weight/distance equation here)

 

If you are REALLY into proving the point, go out, give your friend an 11 foot piece of PVC (what he would wield if he was a hobling with a 5.5 foot sword and a 12 foot piece costs about 2 bucks - plus you can make boffer weapons out of it afterwards!) and you take one that is 4 foot in length. Have him wield it by the bottom Two feet of the pipe (Mark it with tape) and see how well he does against you. Low blocks become a REAL bitch.

 

Then have two more friends pick up 4 foot pieces and see how well he does. You don't even have to try hard and hopefully he'll get the idea.

 

the best way to use a piece of PVC like that is to swing youself like a whirly gig. Hardly any meelee damage can be done as they can't get in to hurt you (if done fast enough) but your an open target for softballs.

Only works for a while or if your a trained dancer or someone like me whose inner ear hasn't settled yet.

[Protec]

Re: little man big sword

 

The same package deal that gives the +DCV should include the Phys Lim: Small, which will of course cover this problem and keep him from reaching the lightswitch in the human's house without jumping.

 

Then if he thinks he doesnt want to play a little person anymore, let him re-write his character. Then you'll see where his priorities lie.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: little man big sword

 

Holy Thread Ressurection, Batman!

[Old Man]

Re: little man big sword

 

Yeah, no kidding. My first reaction was, "I started this thread? WHEN?"

[Old Man]

Re: little man big sword

 

That's okay, I got a real kick out of rereading my old posts. I'd forgotten how much I hate munchkins in FH.

[Wilfred_Death]

Re: little man big sword

 

If the little people in the 'game world' are actually capable of being STR 15, and it's just Special Effect - You are a little person - then let him have the sword no matter how ridiculous it would be 'in real life' or in the game. That way you get the D&D effect of being bashed around by Halflings and Dwarves, who often are stronger than your Human PC, faster & etc.

 

Fantasy games ideas of weapons sometimes lead to characters being descibed as carrying really large weapons, which would be 'impossible' to swing. Look at all those pictures in books and stuff of these huge 20Kg + Axes and etc. The Real Arnold Schwarzenegger, whilst he could lift them easily, more than likely could not swing the things at any speed. - Well you may swing once, - then give youself a hernia trying to stop the swing -

 

If the guy's actually bought Shrinking or some such to reflect the small size it's another matter:

I assume you did something like : Little People have 0 STR as normal and 10 as Maximum. Even then the player is going to whinge if he pays 20 points to get STR 15 and then you won't let him use the weapon.

This sort of rules lawyering is of course 'correct' - he pays the points and gets the power - However it ruins the Game you are trying to create, and such things should be ruled out by fiat.

 

Remember also that most of the other players, who have Human sized characters, probably imagine that they are carrying around 5' long swords as well, and not wondering - What do I do with this thing, when we go into the tavern - bonk! oh Sorry!, crash -- oops!

I don't know about the other examples of the long 2"x4", they're probably applicable ( if risky ), but you could - Just grab a Broom, or your 6' Staff, if you have one, and spend an afternoon carrying it around.

 

If you let Dwarf Boy have STR 15 , you've got to expect him to be trying to use it. It's hard to come up with a Limitation : STR - Does Not work For Long Weapons,

 

Probably Just Make a new Weapon Familiarity:

Extremely Hard to Swing Long Weapons Group 3 Points:

With this Familiarity a Character has developed the skill required to be able to use such long weapons as:

The 24' Long Chinese Stave.

The 20' Long Spear - for use in formations

The 14' Long Orc sword - seen at Live Role Playing I used to go to.

& etc

Characters who have some sort of size reduction, must buy this for an appropriate level. For Example 3' high people consider Katana and other similar weapons to be in this category, (Short Swords and such may be used as 2H weapons).

 

I'm sure that Dwarf Boy will probably balk, then accept this, then later in game buy a potion of Growth - usable on weapons.........

[Outsider]

Re: little man big sword

 

The rule I used to consider was to have smaller than human and larger than human characters be built exactly the same as a human sized one, then they'd get modifiers to damage and lift, depending on the size difference.

 

All else being equal, each halving (or doubling) in mass would adjust lift by 1/2 (or 2), and remove (or add) 1 DC to the character's attacks, and subtract (or add) 2 DEF per 3 halvings of mass to his armor for the same "encumbrance". Thus a micro-knight who was 1/2 the height of a man, and proportioned the same, would have 1/8th the mass. His lift would be 1/8th what his STR stat dictated, and his greatsword would do 1D6 Killing (and require both hands) and his Plate Armor would have only DEF 6.

 

The theoretical backing for this :

 

Lift : People are made of the same stuff, so a pound of muscle is a pound of muscle. having 1/8th the muscle should mean 1/8th the lift. I think this method is better because adjusting the actual STR stat screws with the figured stats too much.

 

Damage : Originally this was going to be -2DCs per halving of mass, along the lines of the old Danger International explosives rules, where half as much explosive added or subtracted 2 DCs. Instead, I went with the progression on STR, which is 5 points ( DC) is half or twice the 'power'. It means that a half (1/8th mass) Greatsword will be 1D6, and be about 2.5 to 3 feet long.

 

Armor : As one decreases the dimensions of an object, its volume (and mass) go down by cubes, but its surface area only goes down by squares. Thus a half dimension object will have 1/8th the mass, but only 1/4th the surface area. In order to keep the mass of armor vs volume contained constant (making the relative encumbrance the same) the actual thickness of the armor would have to be halved. And halving the thickness of a wall reduces its DEF by 2.

[Old Man]

Re: little man big sword

 

 

Lift : People are made of the same stuff, so a pound of muscle is a pound of muscle. having 1/8th the muscle should mean 1/8th the lift. I think this method is better because adjusting the actual STR stat screws with the figured stats too much.

 

I dunno...

 

Everything being the same sure. Now, I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just saying stuff.

 

Various races might have muscle that is more or less efficient than normal human meat. Your typical Dwarf masses more than a human but isn't any stronger. While Elves are skinny skinny and just as strong as humans.

[Outsider]

Re: little man big sword

 

I dunno...

 

Everything being the same sure. Now, I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just saying stuff.

 

Various races might have muscle that is more or less efficient than normal human meat. Your typical Dwarf masses more than a human but isn't any stronger. While Elves are skinny skinny and just as strong as humans.

 

 

Thats why I said "everything else being the same". Having some races be made of slightly different stuff is A-OK, just realize that they are made of slightly different stuff.

 

The problem with the "little man, big sword" deal is that the "little men", in order to be half the dimensions (1/8th the mass) of a human but still have a normal characteristic max of 15, have to be made of stuff that is 4* (!) as powerful as what humans are made of. Elves and dwarves, on the other hand, are generally in the man sized range, and probably dont need to be made of anything more or less than maybe 0.8* to 1.25* as efficient 'stuff, pound for pound, to explain themselves.

[Enforcer84]

Re: little man big sword

 

Man, I thought this was going to be complaints about effite anime style RPG characters with swords 10' to 12' feet long.

 

*goes off and pouts*

[Old Man]

Re: little man big sword

 

 

The problem with the "little man, big sword" deal is that the "little men", in order to be half the dimensions (1/8th the mass) of a human but still have a normal characteristic max of 15, have to be made of stuff that is 4* (!) as powerful as what humans are made of. Elves and dwarves, on the other hand, are generally in the man sized range, and probably dont need to be made of anything more or less than maybe 0.8* to 1.25* as efficient 'stuff, pound for pound, to explain themselves.

 

True.

 

The max of 15 is based on a racial -5 STR Disad. Maybe I should have made it -10. But having a race with an average STR of 0 rubs me the wrong way.

[mikesama]

Re: little man big sword

 

It really is all about the leverage. I teach historical sword fighting and the group I belong to does ren faires and at the faires we do free intro lessons to anyone who wants one.

 

Even using very light practice weapons (1 to 1 1/2 pounds) many children have issue making them work, not only because of leverage issues but also size issues (at 3 feet tall thier hands simply don't encompass enough of the hilt for good grip and control)

 

 

{Edited for spelling errors}