How does "Life Support: Doesn't Breathe" work when it costs END?

[Bathawk1]

  Hey going through the archives again, and came up with Charcoal from "Classic Organizations"

 

Charcoal has Life Support: Self Contained Breathing" Costing END and 3x END (Total: 3) with the special effect of "holding her breath" From what I understand, she has to pay this END every active phase, with a SPD of 5, this would cost 15 END per turn, and with 46 END that means she could use this for three minutes before it fails? (And that assumes she doesn't burn END elsewhere)

 

  Am I misunderstanding the power? 3 minutes doesn't seem like it would be worth spending the points on

[Steve]

That’s three minutes of being at full fighting response time with the ability to take recoveries. SPD can be dropped if not doing anything, so that could be quite a long time holding a breath.

[Bathawk1]

16 minutes ago, Steve said:

That’s three minutes of being at full fighting response time with the ability to take recoveries. SPD can be dropped if not doing anything, so that could be quite a long time holding a breath.

So hypotheticaly, if she wanted to just hide from pursuers at the bottom of a lake, how long could she sit at the bottom "holding her breath"?

[Rich McGee]

30 minutes ago, Bathawk1 said:

So hypotheticaly, if she wanted to just hide from pursuers at the bottom of a lake, how long could she sit at the bottom "holding her breath"?

If she lasts three minutes at SPD 5 normally, then dropping to SPD 1 and not spending END elsewhere will extend that to fifteen minutes.  If there's nothing preventing her from taking Recoveries (not sure how that "hold your breath" SFX would affect that) and her REC is 3 or more, she can stay under essentially forever.

Edited September 10 by Rich McGee

[Christopher R Taylor]

I mean... that build makes no sense.  Reducing speed to 1 means 3 END spent per turn... or you could just hold your breath normally, you spend 2 END per turn.  I guess this lets her get around the "cannot recover" aspect, and with her REC she can easily get back all the END used every post 12 recovery but why even HAVE the END cost then??

[Bathawk1]

5 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I mean... that build makes no sense.  Reducing speed to 1 means 3 END spent per turn... or you could just hold your breath normally, you spend 2 END per turn.  I guess this lets her get around the "cannot recover" aspect, and with her REC she can easily get back all the END used every post 12 recovery but why even HAVE the END cost then??

Exactly, I was wondering about the REC issue, but thought "that can't be right"

[Stanley Teriaca]

If she is Stunned while holding her breath she starts drowning and following drowning rules, as powers which cost END turn off when a character is Stunned. At least...I think that would happen.

[Bathawk1]

52 minutes ago, Stanley Teriaca said:

If she is Stunned while holding her breath she starts drowning and following drowning rules, as powers which cost END turn off when a character is Stunned. At least...I think that would happen.

I believe so...so it's essentially Doesn't breathe: "only when conscious"?

[Stanley Teriaca]

3 minutes ago, Bathawk1 said:

I believe so...so it's essentially Doesn't breathe: "only when conscious"?

Basically, as long as you can keep spending END.

[Rich McGee]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I mean... that build makes no sense.  Reducing speed to 1 means 3 END spent per turn... or you could just hold your breath normally, you spend 2 END per turn.  I guess this lets her get around the "cannot recover" aspect, and with her REC she can easily get back all the END used every post 12 recovery but why even HAVE the END cost then??

To lower the cost of the life support? 

 

As others noted, if her REC is even decent she really doesn't need to reduce her SPD much if any while still holding her breath forever - or until she's Stnned or passes out for some reason.  It's better than just plain holding your breath the regular way as written, but still seems like a lot of trouble.

[LoneWolf]

Normally you cannot reduce your SPD below 2, with the exception of having a 1 SPD.  

 

I have to agree with Christopher R Taylor that the power is poorly written.  From the sound of it I am guessing it is from a previous edition.  Under 5th edition or latter, they have extended breathing.   Extended pushes the END use down the time chart.  For 1 point you spend 1 END per turn, 2 points is 1 END per minute, 3 points for 1 END per 5 min, and 4 points for 1 END per 20 minutes.  It does state you cannot take recoveries when using extended breathing.  
 

[Bathawk1]

28 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

Normally you cannot reduce your SPD below 2, with the exception of having a 1 SPD.  

 

I have to agree with Christopher R Taylor that the power is poorly written.  From the sound of it I am guessing it is from a previous edition.  Under 5th edition or latter, they have extended breathing.   Extended pushes the END use down the time chart.  For 1 point you spend 1 END per turn, 2 points is 1 END per minute, 3 points for 1 END per 5 min, and 4 points for 1 END per 20 minutes.  It does state you cannot take recoveries when using extended breathing.  

 

Yes this is from "Classic Organizations" #416 of 4th edition the chapter on "Sanctuary", the updated version of "Neutral Ground"
 

 

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

Normally you cannot reduce your SPD below 2, with the exception of having a 1 SPD.  

 

I have to agree with Christopher R Taylor that the power is poorly written.  From the sound of it I am guessing it is from a previous edition.  Under 5th edition or latter, they have extended breathing.   Extended pushes the END use down the time chart.  For 1 point you spend 1 END per turn, 2 points is 1 END per minute, 3 points for 1 END per 5 min, and 4 points for 1 END per 20 minutes.  It does state you cannot take recoveries when using extended breathing.  
 

 

Which pretty much makes extended breathing completely worthless, unless you are just standing there and doing nothing. If you are acting, then in most cases you can stay about a turn underwater before you start to drown.

 

For example:

Should you be a Sperm Whale who has an END of 70 and is only swimming.

You will use 6 END per turn, which means you can last for about 5 and 2/3 minutes

Now, while hunting, meaning they are both moving and attacking with their bite and STR, they should be able to stay underwater for 90 minutes in real life, but in Hero they will not even be near (less than 1/10th) what the real animal is capable of.

 

A simple fix that I use is that if you have extended breathing, you can get post 12 recoveries, but cannot take recoveries, and the END used via the time ration of extended breathing, cannot be recovered.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

A simple fix that I use is that if you have extended breathing, you can get post 12 recoveries, but cannot take recoveries, and the END used via the time ration of extended breathing, cannot be recovered.

 

That is how I have always run it, because it makes extended breathing make more sense as a concept: its supposed to do, but does not in the rules.  Its supposed to simulate creatures who can hold their breath longer in the ocean regardless of their END use.

Edited September 11 by Christopher R Taylor

[LoneWolf]

Self-Contained Breathing costs 10 points.  Extended Breathing starts at 1 point. At that level your typical character with 30 END can hold their breath for 6 minutes if doing nothing else.  If they were swimming, they could swim for about 2 minutes before running out of END.  Even without buying up your swimming that lets them swim for 320m.  While that is not a lot of time it still only cost 1 point.    

[Christopher R Taylor]

OK so the question is: how much duration of Extended Breathing is as good as self contained breathing?  Its tough to measure, because there is no set END use or average END use in a game like Hero, which an represent a hobo taking a swim or Aquaman.

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

Self-Contained Breathing costs 10 points.  Extended Breathing starts at 1 point. At that level your typical character with 30 END can hold their breath for 6 minutes if doing nothing else.  If they were swimming, they could swim for about 2 minutes before running out of END.  Even without buying up your swimming that lets them swim for 320m.  While that is not a lot of time it still only cost 1 point.    

 

But that one (or two, or three, or four) point(s) is a complete waste of points. It is overwhelmingly much more valuable to purchase Expanded Breathing if you want to be underwater. The way they have it all whales and seals and dolphins are dead and have pretty much never existed. They either drowned or starved at conception. I understand it is just the way the rules are, but if you are going to create creatures to be used in the game you should at least make them close to what they actually are.

 

Sometimes you have to have at least some realism.

[LoneWolf]

Compare extended breathing to what was done in the first post.  That cost 4 points, and you use 3 END per phase.  Which one is more of a waste of points?  

 

Just because you the power does not work for all characters does not mean it is useless.  Holding your breath normally cost 1 END per phase in addition to any other END you use.  For 1 point I can reduce that to 1 per turn.     
 

[Gauntlet]

At least his version doesn't have the only choice when underwater as to hold breath and do nothing. That is assuming that he/she want's to be underwater for more than a Turn or two anyways.

[LoneWolf]

If you want to stay underwater for long periods of time just buy expanded breathing for 5 points.  Then he can stay underwater indefinably with no END cost. 

 

If you want to limit the amount of time you could use a recoverable continuing charge.  1 continuing charge lasting 20 minutes is a +0 limitation.  That would work fairly well for holding your breath.

 

With the original power it cost a minimum of 6 END per turn when doing nothing else and reducing your SPD to 2.  A character with a 5 SPD, acting in every phase will burn through 15 END per turn plus what he spends on other actions.  So, if he is swimming that would be a minimum of 20 END per turn.  Personally, I would rather pay 1 point to spend 6 END per turn instead of 4 to spend 20.   Assuming a 10 REC and 30 END I am out of END in 2 turns with the original write up, where with the extended breathing it takes 5 turns.  

 

My point was that the way the original power was written up was outdated and inefficient  
 

[Gauntlet]

57 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

My point was that the way the original power was written up was outdated and inefficient 

 

Very Very True.