Campaign Everyman Skills

[Steve]

I had an interesting situation come up in a session recently.

 

One of the players thought Interrogation was an Everyman Skill. I gently corrected this, but it got me to thinking.

 

How might choosing Everyman skills help in defining a culture or even a campaign? If I’m running a campaign and decide Charm is an Everyman Skill, how does that help define the campaign? Or if I did run a campaign where Interrogation was an Everyman Skill, what does that say about the type of world it is?

[Michael Struck]

Charm? Most people are manipulative. Interrogation? Most people are violent, or live under a government that uses torture so much, "everyman" has basic knowledge of torture.

 

If Riding: {some animal or another} is an everyman skill (EMS), then most people not only can travel by {that animal} in ordinary circumstances, but have a little knowledge of "fancy maneuvers" - - - IOW, cavalry and such is so widespread most people have the basics. Add Animal Handler for that (type of) animal, and most people have basic ability to raise their own {that animal}; the combination means many people are more-or-less oriented towards {that animal}.

 

If Navigation: Land is an EMS, most people are used to traveling significant distances overland.

 

Hmmm.... Those combined could be the start of a EMS list for Bedouin or Mongols.

 

Navigation: Marine would be for a society oriented around seafaring.

If Acting is not an EMS, the society applauds straight-forward behavior. If Climbing is not, there are few tall things in the environment; or, the only tall things are hard to climb, so few people try.

 

SS: Robotics is a society with a lot of robots, possibly with many more robots than humans.

 

Gambling; (choice of category) as a EMS indicates a society where gambling is widespread, and probably totally accepted. If the EMS is for a particular category, that category is widespread and accepted. Gambling for a particular game/subcategory would mean that game/subcategory is fairly to very central to that society. Such a society would likely also have an EMS for that game, or at least for its rules.

 

EMS KS: History, because they don't want to repeat it. 😉

 

You know, this is an interesting topic!

[Doc Democracy]

It is a strength of HERO that the ability to define a campaign, through the system, from the ground up is possible. 

 

It is a weakness that you need to, if you want to avoid things feeling the same, campaign to campaign.

[unclevlad]

I think trying to shade Everyman Skills...or the lack thereof...to say something about a society is massively overthinking things.

 

Every Characteristic-based skill can be bought as an Everyman skill.  At 8-.  That's barely competent.  PS at 11-...you're "competent."  You can get a job, sure, but on a professional path, it's VERY much a starter job, and in most cases, those don't pay squat.

 

So who can get these?  Heck, high school grads can have 8- Stealth.  An EMT-Basic has minimal requirements...applications only require a HS diploma or GED, and then there'll be some minimal specialized work.  Four years of being in the high school plays, with notable parts?  Gotta be worth an 8- Acting.

 

Look at the suggested lists on 6E1 60.  They're widely scattered.

 

Far as I'm concerned, ANYTHING that can be earned by an average person, with an associate's degree (2 years post-HS) or less, can be bought as an Everyman skill.  For earlier genres, that still holds;  it just becomes more of a notion of what equivalent training is.  

 

So IMO there's absolutely no inference, pro or con, about what is, or is not, an Everyman skill for the right background.  I'll leave the door open to saying there might be some I'd exclude...that become particularly technical...but that seems it's offset because you're only getting a basic acquaintance with the skill.

[Doc Democracy]

To be honest, I would be content with providing a few everyman skills at a competent (11-) level to highlight something about the society you are in, so thereby using the system to do something that is not in the core rules.  As I said, it is easy to do, it can be valuable in a game and can give signals to players about the features of a society (they may feed into an Eddings-like stereotypical representation of societies but I find that often works well in RPGs).

 

Doc

[unclevlad]

An Everyman skill doesn't mean "everyone knows it."  It means "anyone can pick it up at a basic level."  Now, sure, if you want to say "everyone knows this"...then, sure, it's something that really does highlight something about the society.  I'm minded of the planet Komarr, in Bujold's Vorkosiverse.  Cold planet, bad air, being terraformed slowly, all people live in domes.  SERIOUS safety rules regarding avoiding damage to the domes, obviously, and kiddies are drilled constantly about breather masks for inter-dome travel.  So, some notion of Survival would definitely be an 11-. 

 

And, yeah, using the Eddings cultural stereotyping isn't such a bad thing.  Not like he was unique.  Go back to Trek...Vulcans are rigidly logical and unemotional, Klingons respect only strength and power, Romulans are devious schemers.  In DS9, Ferengi are always looking to get the best of every deal with everyone.  Simplifies NPC interaction quite a bit.

 

[LoneWolf]

You are confusing an everyman skill with familiarity with a skill.  A character can purchase familiarity with any skill for a point.  That gives them an 8 or less roll, but you cannot use skill levels to increase the roll.  

 

An everyman skill is a skill that all characters in the campaign get familiarity with for free.  It represents basic knowledge and abilities that everyone has.  What is an everyman skill can vary from campaign to campaign.  For example, most modern setting gives TF with small motorized vehicles, but a fantasy setting usually gives TF with some form of ridding animal.  Some science fiction campaigns have computer programing as an everyman skill, while others may not. In some cases lacking an everyman skill can actually be a complication. 

 

For culture specific skills it would probably be better to create package deals for those.  Fantasy Hero has multiple examples of cultural package deals but there is no reason that you cannot use them in other campaigns.  
 

[unclevlad]

First, there's 2 distinct variations on "everyman" skills.  For the characteristic-based (Acrobatics, Climbing, etc.)...yes, "everyman" means 8- for free.  OTOH, for professional, knowledge, and science skills, Everyman means 11-.

 

The rules state a PS at 11- is Everyman.  Everyone pretty much has a professional skill, sure...but not the same one.  THIS is what I'm talking about...not the characteristic-based.  Even then, I'd argue...I couldn't climb a rope for squat even in high school, and I was OK at sports generally.  There's no way "everyone" learns the basics of climbing.

 

Mostly it's grammatical.  To me, there is basically NO characteristic-based skill that "everyone knows how to do these things."  That's an untenable, ridiculous standard.  I'm simply making it into a standard I can live with:  If a relatively average person can learn the skill "to some extent"...then it can be bought as an Everyman skill.  Many can.  Some that can't would be Computer Programming (the hacking angle is why) and Demolitions.  Some, I'd tend to say are part and parcel of more complex training, like Analyze (Style).  I'll carry that over for KS, SS, and PS.  I won't do it for languages.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gauntlet]

10 hours ago, unclevlad said:

First, there's 2 distinct variations on "everyman" skills.  For the characteristic-based (Acrobatics, Climbing, etc.)...yes, "everyman" means 8- for free.  OTOH, for professional, knowledge, and science skills, Everyman means 11-.

 

The rules state a PS at 11- is Everyman.  Everyone pretty much has a professional skill, sure...but not the same one.  THIS is what I'm talking about...not the characteristic-based.  Even then, I'd argue...I couldn't climb a rope for squat even in high school, and I was OK at sports generally.  There's no way "everyone" learns the basics of climbing.

 

Mostly it's grammatical.  To me, there is basically NO characteristic-based skill that "everyone knows how to do these things."  That's an untenable, ridiculous standard.  I'm simply making it into a standard I can live with:  If a relatively average person can learn the skill "to some extent"...then it can be bought as an Everyman skill.  Many can.  Some that can't would be Computer Programming (the hacking angle is why) and Demolitions.  Some, I'd tend to say are part and parcel of more complex training, like Analyze (Style).  I'll carry that over for KS, SS, and PS.  I won't do it for languages.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It sounds like absolutely no one who has been trained to climb cannot climb a ladder. In hero you need a skill to be able to climb, including a ladder. The everyman skills are for the extremely basic uses of the skill, like climbing to allow the character to climb a ladder. Just because they have an everyman skill does not mean that they can do absolutely everything. 

[unclevlad]

Just now, Gauntlet said:

 

It sounds like absolutely no one who has been trained to climb cannot climb a ladder. In hero you need a skill to be able to climb, including a ladder. The everyman skills are for the extremely basic uses of the skill, like climbing to allow the character to climb a ladder. Just because they have an everyman skill does not mean that they can do absolutely everything. 

 

I never said they did.  But IMO climbing a ladder is Not a Roll for anyone in average health, barring vertigo or fear of heights.  I don't even treat it as 'climbing.'  6E1 68, bold mine:

 

Quote

This Agility Skill allows a character to climb unusually difficult walls, trees, and buildings, as long as handholds exist. Most characters can climb ordinary things (like ladders) without a Skill.

 

Even stating "you have to list this even if it's gonna be 0 points" is ridiculous to me.  

 

It's pretty common for there to be Everyman equipment...you don't have to pay points for everyday items anyone can buy, even if there's a combat application (like a good combat knife.)  Things that fit the character, by and large, don't need to be listed.  Everyman Climbing is more than climbing a ladder, and asserting Hero demands that you have it listed is being extremely pedantic and petty.

[Gauntlet]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

I never said they did.  But IMO climbing a ladder is Not a Roll for anyone in average health, barring vertigo or fear of heights.  I don't even treat it as 'climbing.'  6E1 68, bold mine:

 

But technically to "Climb" a ladder you need Climbing. And it is an 8 or less roll with no way for the character (not the situation) to increase that roll. Not by wearing some type of gear, or taking more time, or anything. Now, if you want to say that Everyman skills are a kinda so what, then I have to agree with you there. I do think that they are rather pointless.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

 

But technically to "Climb" a ladder you need Climbing. And it is an 8 or less roll with no way for the character (not the situation) to increase that roll. Not by wearing some type of gear, or taking more time, or anything. Now, if you want to say that Everyman skills are a kinda so what, then I have to agree with you there. I do think that they are rather pointless.

 

That's why I say it's being pedantic and overly literal.  English is a *sloppy* language.  If I said "ascend the ladder"...would that still require Climbing?  "Climbing stairs" is used...do I need Climbing?

That's why I throw out the overly restrictive book text.  Can anyone learn a little about climbing, to climb a rope, or maybe a tree laid out well, at least to get up?  MAYBE get a ways up a first-timer's climbing wall?  Sure.  There's a *massive* difference between "anyone" and "everyone"...and I have NO trust that the rules recognize that.  

 

A good example might be properly doing CPR...that feels like a Paramedics 8-.  It isn't something you can do...safely...without training.  A quick google search says 65% of Americans learned to do it at some point...but only 18% have kept up.  CPR certification is required for even basic EMT training...but the classes are open to high school students.  Well, hey, that's "anyone can take it" but also definitely NOT "everyone knows how to do it."  This also avoids the rules awkwardness here:

 

Quote

In some cases, a character may not know all the Everyman Skills he should — for example, a modern-day character who’s spent all his life in a big city with easilyaccessed mass transportation may never learn how to drive a car. If so, he may sell back any Everyman Skills he doesn’t know for 1 point each.

Despite the name, Everyman Skills are really Everycharacter Skills. Not every single person in a given society has these Skills, but every PC and prominent NPC does. Heroes, after all, generally tend to be more competent at a wide variety of abilities than the average person.

 

This is a confusing, contradictory mess.  The skills allow 10 characteristic-based skills for EVERY character?  Why would a brick automatically pick up CPR?  A brick's one of the *last* people who should try...keeping control of their STR is non-trivial.  Shadowing is similar.  The player can focus on the character's background, history and powers, and use THOSE to start picking the Everyman skills that fit...and my criterion fits the notion readily.

[LoneWolf]

“All characters have some ability in a few Skills to reflect the fact that everybody knows how to do these things to some extent. The actual “Everyman” Skills vary according to the genre and the campaign setting.”

 

The above quote is from 6E1 page 60 and defines what everyman skills are.  For the most part they are familiarity with the skills on the list, but there are two exceptions.  One is that all characters have 4 points in their native langue and depending on the campaign may include literacy with that language.  The second is one PS at 11 or less representing the characters job or hobby.  

 

The other thing to keep in mind about familiarity is that you cannot boos the roll with any skill levels including overall skill levels.  Other modifier to the skill can still apply especially penalties to the roll. This means that a lot of times the character will have less than an 8 or less chance of success.  Some skill also may take more than one roll to succeed.  

 

Doing CPR on a dying character is probably at least a difficult if not extremely difficult task. A -3 or sounds about right.  Paramedic rolls also take a -1 penalty per 2 BODY the character has taken.  Usually a character that needs CPR to save them will have taken at least some body and often will have taken quite a bit of body.  So, tack on an additional -2 to the roll which means the character with familiarity with paramedics needs to roll a three. If you fail your paramedic roll by 4 or more you actually make things worse.   So, your untrained medic trying to use CPR on the dying victim has a .046% chance of success, and an 84%   chance of making it worse, which will probably kill the dying character.  That sound remarkable accurate.  
 

[unclevlad]

You're 

a)  taking the rules far too literally...and narrowly...when reading ALL the rules there offer tremendous qualifiers, and

b)  why would they teach CPR to MILLIONS of people every year if it was anything like what you say?  Even if 20% keep up to date, that's something like 60 or 70 MILLION people.  Also, the most critical use of CPR is to continue blood flow to the brain (if nothing else) while trying to get the heart to start beating on its own.  GENERALLY...right after a cardiac arrest.  It IS NOT "extremely difficult"...it's the intended case.  It's the Everyman case.

 

And heart stoppage starts the countdown to brain damage.  There is no translation to game terms to lost BODY.  From

https://med.nyu.edu/research/parnia-lab/cardiac-arrest-death

 

Quote

Cardiac arrest occurs when any event or illness, including trauma, infection, heart attack, cancer, or poisoning becomes so severe that it disrupts the delivery of sufficient oxygen to meet the requirements of the heart muscle, which then causes the heart to stop pumping. The heart can also stop pumping if it suffers a sudden abnormal electrical malfunction. Much the way that a stroke occurs after there is a restriction of blood flow to a portion of the brain, the end result of cardiac arrest is akin to a global stroke: once the heart stops beating, oxygen is cut off from all the body’s organs, including the brain, and within seconds, respiration stops and brain activity comes to a halt.

 

That's why time is so, so critical.  But there's no 'injury' as in a stab or bullet wound.

 

44 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

The other thing to keep in mind about familiarity is that you cannot boos the roll with any skill levels including overall skill levels.  Other modifier to the skill can still apply especially penalties to the roll. This means that a lot of times the character will have less than an 8 or less chance of success.  Some skill also may take more than one roll to succeed.  

 

 

That has nothing to do with it.  The argument is, what plausibly should count as an Everyman skill?  That's totally separate from the mechanics of Familiarity.

 

ALL I'm saying is, the rules notion of what *can* count as an Everyman skill is badly worded, needlessly limited, and even arguably overly generous.  I'm suggesting, leave it up to the player and the GM...based on the character's background, pick some skills...not from some vague notion of "everyone picks this up" but from "anyone *can* pick this up."  That's IT.  And "anyone can pick it up" absolutely includes "everyone does pick it up."  

[Gauntlet]

6 hours ago, unclevlad said:

That's why I say it's being pedantic and overly literal.  English is a *sloppy* language.  If I said "ascend the ladder"...would that still require Climbing?  "Climbing stairs" is used...do I need Climbing?

 

Looks like we are pretty much on the exact same page but just describe it a little differently.

 

Perhaps a better way for "Everyman Skills" would be to give character a set number of Free points to purchase some extremely basic skills based on their character's background. Perhaps 10 points would be a good number.

Edited September 6 by Gauntlet

[LoneWolf]

I was figuring the person needing CPR had been injured in an accident or through violence, in which case they probably have taken BODY.  Even without the penalty for BODY that leaves the roll at a 5 or less. Which is slightly less than a 5% chance of success, and a 74% chance of making the patient worse.  My example was off the top of my head and just to show that an 8 or less on a skill does not mean the person can do perform complex tasks with the skill.

 

But at the same time an 8 or less can allow the person to accomplish easy things in non-combat situations. Skill rolls do not have to be made every time the skill is used.  Usually, the GM will call for a roll when the characters are in combat or other stressful situations.  So, you don’t have to make a climbing roll when you are using a ladder to put up your Christmas lights but might need to make it when you are trying to climb the ladder to get away from the person shooting at you with a rifle. 

 

The game is also designed to allow characters to be Hero’s.  This means that often tasks that are more difficult in real life are easier in the game.   While that may not be how things work in reality it keeps the game fun.  For the most part it works reasonably well so there is no real reason to change things.

I don’t think give characters a pool of points to purchase everyman skills is a good idea. This could very well lead to situations where characters are unable to perform basic tasks that everyone should be able to perform.  The list of everyman skills is actually extremely well thought out.  About the only thing that might need to be done are minor adjustments for a particular campaign setting.  
 

[unclevlad]

10 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

I was figuring the person needing CPR had been injured in an accident or through violence, in which case they probably have taken BODY.  Even without the penalty for BODY that leaves the roll at a 5 or less. Which is slightly less than a 5% chance of success, and a 74% chance of making the patient worse.  My example was off the top of my head and just to show that an 8 or less on a skill does not mean the person can do perform complex tasks with the skill.

 

Why do you insist on applying a -3 situational mod?  CPR is a standard practice, taught to MILLIONS every year.  What would be the point of teaching it so broadly, if it's 15x more likely to HURT the injured person than help them, by your numbers?

 

And I've never argued that 8- lets you do complex tasks.  CPR, in most cases, is simply not an unusually complex task...that's a given from real life.  It is tricky enough, I'd say, to require the roll...which is nasty enough.  You keep bringing that up, trying to bolster a counter to an argument I'm not making.

 

That might be part of it...it's like the earlier "climb" the ladder discussion.  Where does one draw the lines..."no this doesn't need any skill at all, you just do it" to "you've have the skill on your sheet, you can do it" to "give me a roll."  With CPR, it's automatically, in my book, outside the realm of the first.  CPR needs to be trained, so the skill has to be on the sheet...but it's easy to get basic first aid and CPR, so, fine, it can be taken as an Everyman skill.

[LoneWolf]

Just because millions of people are trained in it does not make it an easy task.  CPR is also a lot harder than bandaging up someone or treating someone for shock. I used to be certified for CPR, but that was years ago.  It is actually a lot harder than it looks.  It is a physically demanding task that if you do it alone is exhausting. Difficulty can be more than just how complex something its.  

 

Even with 22 million people trained in CPR that still only works out to be about 0.27% of the population.

[Gauntlet]

5 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Just because millions of people are trained in it does not make it an easy task.  CPR is also a lot harder than bandaging up someone or treating someone for shock. I used to be certified for CPR, but that was years ago.  It is actually a lot harder than it looks.  It is a physically demanding task that if you do it alone is exhausting. Difficulty can be more than just how complex something its.  

 

Even with 22 million people trained in CPR that still only works out to be about 0.27% of the population.

 

Not really, I just took CPR, a week ago, and have done bandaging, CPR is much easier. Now if you are just putting on a Band-Aid, or just wrapping the wound up without doing anything (which is worthless and actually can cause more harm) then sure, it is very easy. But if you are truly checking the wound, cleaning the wound, and making sure the bandaging is assisting in stopping the bleeding and not causing a blockage of blood (making sure it is not too tight or loose) then it is more difficult and takes more attention than CPR.

 

Now on the other side, should CPR or Bandaging of a nasty wound be something that someone with an everyman familiarity be able to do, then definitely NO. I don't think that paramedics should be an everyman skill. And as for me having taken CPR, if I am not using it and/or not practicing it on a regular basis, it starts to become lost in as quickly as a week.

[Doc Democracy]

2 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

I don't think that paramedics should be an everyman skill.

 

I think this is where @LoneWolf actually came in.  Should paramedic be on a generic list of everyman skills?  The answer is most probably no.

 

If the campaign is a post-apocalypse setting where there is constant injury and combat, environmental, critters and bandits?  Then I might accept that everyone works as a paramedic at some point and it should probably be an everyman skill. 

 

My judge for this is to look at the campaign.  If around 2/3 of the people might be expected to have the skill, then the question of it being everyman should be raised.  The second hurdle would be whether I thought more than a third of my players would buy it.  If that is true, then I wouldn't give it out free, they value it, it has worth and therefore they should pay points.  If not, then give it away, to deliver the cultural baseline.

 

Doc

[unclevlad]

20 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Even with 22 million people trained in CPR that still only works out to be about 0.27% of the population.

 

a)  The stats, IIRC, were that about 65% of the US population had learned CPR...and about 18% have remained *current* with it.  

b)  NONE of this discussion applies to the world population, so using it as your denominator is inappropriate.  "Modern" as per the 6E examples, means "first world countries"...and the numbers I can find easily, are ONLY US.

 

12 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

My judge for this is to look at the campaign.  If around 2/3 of the people might be expected to have the skill, then the question of it being everyman should be raised.  The second hurdle would be whether I thought more than a third of my players would buy it.  If that is true, then I wouldn't give it out free, they value it, it has worth and therefore they should pay points.  If not, then give it away, to deliver the cultural baseline.

 

 

This is getting a LOT closer to where I'm coming from.  I wouldn't demand 2/3...even that's too high, IMO.  Why should it be that high?  Lots of things might not be that readily available.  How many people play piano passably?  I'm talking basic lessons, playing in the HS jazz ensemble, that sort of thing.  With guitar, it'd likely be higher, but piano?  I doubt it's 5%.  It's something most are *capable* of learning, but is often not available or practical for them.  That should not disqualify it from being an Everyman skill.  

 

On 9/5/2024 at 10:23 PM, Gauntlet said:

Perhaps a better way for "Everyman Skills" would be to give character a set number of Free points to purchase some extremely basic skills based on their character's background. Perhaps 10 points would be a good number.

 

6E1 60 lists 9 characteristic-based skills, plus a PS, TF, and AK, so 10's in the ballpark for what they're thinking.  I really dislike their rigidity...why not a couple PSs?  Say I take 4 years of HS musical theater.  Why can't I take Acting, PS:  Singing, and maybe PS:  Cooking?  That's also trivial to justify.

 

There's NO good reason for the rules to be as rigid as they are, particularly so long as a sane cap on the number is maintained.  We're still talking 8- on the characteristic-based, and 11- on the background.

[LoneWolf]

One thing to keep in mind is that the game abstracts a lot of things in order to make the game playable.  The game has no rules for CPR or cardiac arrest.  Using real world situation as examples of game mechanics does not work well.  In order to do that we would first need to have game mechanics for things like cardiac arrest and other real-world situation.  That level of detail is going to slow the game down to a crawl and make it so complex that understanding of the game is going to require the same investment in time and learning as a PHD.  

 

Using a paramedic roll to stabilize a dying person may not be hyper realistic but it works in the game.  This way the GM does not have to determine the exact medical condition and what steps are needed to save the character in danger.  The GM can simply have the character make a paramedic roll and use the narrative method to determine what happens.  It also can factor in the chance of the character stabilizing by himself, but at the same time allowing a trained character to improve the chances of saving the character.   How difficult CPR is in the real world does not really matter in the game.  Focusing on that level of detail is not really helpful.  

 

There is no reason a character cannot have multiple PS or any other skills, they just have to pay for those.  The purpose of the list of everyman skills is to give a baseline list of abilities that nearly all character in the campaign can perform.  Giving acting as an everyman skill means pretend to be someone else. Climbing allows you to climb over a fairly easy obstacle like a short wall. Concealment means the character can try and find something that is hidden or to try and hide.  Paramedic allows someone to realize they need to warm up the person who has been unconscious in the cold for hours.  Going down the list what skill on the everyman list do you think that most functional adults would not have?   
 

[unclevlad]

Yeah, well, this is pointless to continue.

[Jason Reid]

I'm just gonna say, having been through actual weeks of CPR training (and unfortunately not kept current), that the percentage of population who says they have taken CPR training also includes a lot of people who have been to a single two hour class once in their life and never used it since, certainly not on an actual human.

 

I for one would not trust that most of those people actually "have the everyman skill".

[Gauntlet]

That's why I think it might not be a bad idea of having characters select everyman skills based on their character's background. Perhaps they could be chosen out of list of available skills that could be everyman skills. That way the everyman skills would be based on the character's background.

Edited September 8 by Gauntlet