My existential crisis about SPD

[Grailknight]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Why?  Is the second character stupid? The first character dodged.  He can't attack.  There is no reason for the second character to put anything to DCV if he wants to attack, rather than flee (if his goal was to steal something and escape), move behind cover so the Dodger can't see him or take some other action rather than just standing toe to toe and trading shots.  

 

If he IS going to attack, why shouldn't he put all levels in OCV?  He can Abort to Dodge in Segment 1 if he needs to. If Character 1 attacks in Phase 3, Character 2 can Abort and get his Dodge bonus right into Phase 8.  Or we could give the lower SPD character a Block instead of a Dodge (he can still use the standard Dodge if he wants).

 

Or he can tough out one Sacrifice Strike (when Character 1 puts everything in OCV) and respond with a much more damaging Offensive Strike after taking that hit, and in the same segment so Character 1 can't Abort to restore his DCV.

 

We could also give Character 2 another 2 skill levels instead of +1 OCV and +1 DCV.

 

Been over all that with him and got the same answers. Apparently, comparisons have to take character psychology into account and that leads to the higher SPD character getting an OCV boost from his Martial Arts while the lower SPD gets an OCV minus. But the second character has the higher OCV/DCV because that was how the conversation started: +1 OCV/DCV base vs +1 SPD.

 

Edited August 31 by Grailknight

[Gauntlet]

Another way to make a character that is supposed to be rather fast is to give them an area effect attack, radius, selective, no range and base the damage on his/her HTH damage. The following is a possible example:

 

Run around and hit EVERYONE:  Blast 9d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (12m Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4) (112 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Considered to be Touching Anyone Attacked with Power (-1/4), Individuals Can Block (-1/4)

 

The Radius should be the value no larger than the attacker can run in a phase.

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The reason for the second character not to put everything in OCV is the second character is going first.  If the first character has a higher DEX he saves phase and aborts if he is attacked.  That means the second character has to declare the maneuver and distribute the skill levels.  Since the first character is aborting he can distribute the skill levels in response to the attack.  This may result in a Mexican standoff as both characters wait for the other to attack.  

 

If the second character does not attack the first in 12 and does something else, the first character can go all out against him in 12 and will attack again in 3.   If that happens and the second character is stunned, he is going to be at a severe disadvantage in 3.  

 

The sacrifice strike does as much damage as an offensive strike.  The only difference between them the modifiers to OCV and DCV.   
 

 

As @Grailknight has commented, the deck seems stacked against Character 2.  He is given maneuvers that are inferior for the suggested combat, and is assumed to act without considering Character 1's abilities while Character 1 receives full knowledge of Character 2's abilities.

 

Why is Character 2 going first?  I thought the only differences were SPD, OCV/DCV and maneuvers.  Which one goes first is determined by a rolloff.

 

So Alpha has an attack that gives +1 OCV, -2 DCV and Beta gets -1 OCV, +2 DCV.  Both have a Martial Dodge and 4 skill levels.  Leaving aside any question of alternative character design and neither having the required 10 points of martial maneuvers, we just use that baseline.  Let's given them base CV of 5 and 6 so we have numbers,

 

Nothing stops Beta delaying just like Alpha delays. Beta can also attack with all levels on DCV.  He has OCV 5 and DCV 12. Alpha can Dodge and have DCV 10.  Beta will only hit on a 6-.  If Alpha does not Dodge, Beta will hit on 11-.  If Alpha is not hit and stunned, he can attack with OCV 10, so he will need a 9- to hit.

 

In Ph 3, Beta can abort to Dodge for a DCV of 15 with all skill levels, meaning Alpha needs the same 6- to hit with his 10 OCV. Beta's Dodge will continue until Ph 8.

 

Or they can both stand around all day waiting for the other to make the first move.

Edited August 31 by Hugh Neilson

[LoneWolf]

The example I used is based on a character I ran.  I have used the strategy in actual games and had a lot of success with it.  In my experience I have found that most players tend to try to get in attack as soon as they can.  The vast majority of players are going to try and attack in 12.  Most players when attacking also do not tank their DCV and cancel the next phase, they usually to maintain a decent DCV while attacking. It is also my experience that offensive strike is a lot more common that sacrifice strike even though the maneuvers are similar.  

 

The strategy does not always work, but a higher SPD can make it easier to exploit a mistake made by your opponent and recover from your own mistakes. 

 

If the lower SPD character uses this strategy he will be attacked twice before he gets a chance to attack. The character that gets two attacks has a greater chance to hit than the character that gets one even if the slower character has a +1 CV.  Two attacks at an 11 or less gives you about an 86% chance of success, a 12 or less gives you a 74% chance of success.    
 

[Doc Democracy]

The thing is, characters are rarely fighting for the sake of fighting.

 

My players have now realised that if I stake out a fight that seems to have no purpose than fighting, then they are missing something.  Or someone and, regardless of how the fight is going, they are "losing".

 

In the case in point, those two characters might be in an endless standoff regardless of abilities but it is on someone's interest to delay.  The villain might be holding off the hero while the vault is being robbed, the hero might be delaying the villain until police or other help arrives.

 

Having the higher speed probably gives you an action each turn to thwart the other's plans, scooting past them when they abort to dodge, either to intercept the robbery or to escape.

 

The higher the SPD differential, the bigger that utility grows.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

4 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The example I used is based on a character I ran.  I have used the strategy in actual games and had a lot of success with it.  In my experience I have found that most players tend to try to get in attack as soon as they can.  The vast majority of players are going to try and attack in 12.  Most players when attacking also do not tank their DCV and cancel the next phase, they usually to maintain a decent DCV while attacking. It is also my experience that offensive strike is a lot more common that sacrifice strike even though the maneuvers are similar.

 

In most games I play, the objective is not to beat the other players, but for the players to defeat a group of NPCs. That changes the dynamic considerably. 

 

I broadly agree with your assessment of most players' playstyles, certainly in Supers games. My players, at least, are smart enough to question why they lose a battle, and assess better tactics for any rematch or similar opponent in the future.  As well, I find that players with a lot of skill levels, as in our example, typically assign them in a balanced manner, at least until they have a sense of their opponents, so I would not often see either of the two max out their OCV and leave themselves open to counterattack as their opening gambit in a straight-up fight.

 

This seems more like one character thinking tactically while the other flails away blindly than 1 extra SPD winning the day.

 

4 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

If the lower SPD character uses this strategy he will be attacked twice before he gets a chance to attack. The character that gets two attacks has a greater chance to hit than the character that gets one even if the slower character has a +1 CV.  Two attacks at an 11 or less gives you about an 86% chance of success, a 12 or less gives you a 74% chance of success.   

 

In your example, if the lower SPD character also delays, no one ever attacks. If Alpha attacks and Beta dodges, Alpha will get two attacks, each needing 6- to hit as Beta's dodge bonus remains.  That's less than 10% likely to hit once.

[LoneWolf]

Actually in my example the higher character SPD delayed.  The strategy relies on allowing the other character to go first.          

 

My original point on this example was that being a highly trained combatant is more than just a single stat.  My use of this example was in response to Grailknights post about the importance of CV for a highly trained combatant.  His assumption was that CV was the foundation for everything.  My point is that a character can adjust his OCV and DCV to fit the situation, and that a higher SPD character has an advantage in doing so.  In reality both SPD and CV are about equally important for a competent combatant.  

 

In my experience the winner of a fight in the Hero System is often dependent on who is the smarter player or has superior system knowledge.   
 

[Gauntlet]

I still have a tendency to go with characters with lower SPD. Not incredibly low but more to the mid to low average of the game. I have played speedsters but you have to pay rather close attention to END and to getting hit (area effects in particular). Plus, it gives me a decent amount of points to utilize for other things.

[Hugh Neilson]

34 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

I still have a tendency to go with characters with lower SPD. Not incredibly low but more to the mid to low average of the game. I have played speedsters but you have to pay rather close attention to END and to getting hit (area effects in particular). Plus, it gives me a decent amount of points to utilize for other things.

 

Good point - it's not just 10 (30) points spent on +1 (+3) SPD. The character also needs to invest points in END management.

[Gauntlet]

4 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Good point - it's not just 10 (30) points spent on +1 (+3) SPD. The character also needs to invest points in END management.

 

Thanks, and one thing I forgot to say is even if you are speedster, it doesn't mean you have to be a 12 speed.

[LoneWolf]

What makes a speedster is more than just having a high SPD.  That is part of it, but that is not the only thing.   Things like adding the rapid sense modifier to allow them to search faster or process information faster, or overall levels to simulate that they can effectively take extra time to accomplish things are also important.