My existential crisis about SPD

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

If SPD is lowered across the board, that indecisive player will still cause delays. Their effect will remain proportional to their relative SPD vs the other players. 

 

Yeah exactly.  You need to be able to identify that kind of player and make sure their character has few options and not much speed so that they have plenty of time to prepare and few choices to be paralyzed by.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah exactly.  You need to be able to identify that kind of player and make sure their character has few options and not much speed so that they have plenty of time to prepare and few choices to be paralyzed by.

We can also if the player has been playing awhile tell them that they missed their Phase. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

With my speedster friend, I would ask him what he wanted to do, and after a short period, say that he held his phase, and told him to let me know any time if there was something he wanted to do.

[Gauntlet]

18 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah exactly.  You need to be able to identify that kind of player and make sure their character has few options and not much speed so that they have plenty of time to prepare and few choices to be paralyzed by.

 

I definitely agree, it is the GMs responsibility to maintain combat. If you have a character who has problems deciding what they will do, assist them, perhaps by quickly making sure they understand their options. Another thing that can be done, especially if you have experienced players that take forever, limit the time frame they have to decide, should they not be able to, automatically state that they are holding their phase.

[Ninja-Bear]

At this point though we need a Venn Diagram. The points would be, the character I want, the game I’m in and the rules themselves. Because in reality though we say we can make any character we want, there is some give and take in that:

[Gauntlet]

17 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

At this point though we need a Venn Diagram. The points would be, the character I want, the game I’m in and the rules themselves. Because in reality though we say we can make any character we want, there is some give and take in that:

 

We gotta remember, "Nothing in Life is Free".

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

 

We gotta remember, "Nothing in Life is Free".

True but when Hero system feels like doing taxes? 🤢 I mean there HAS to be some give somewhere.

[Gauntlet]

18 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

True but when Hero system feels like doing taxes? 🤢 I mean there HAS to be some give somewhere.

 

You may be forgetting Sir, when it comes to TAXES, there ABSOLUTELY IS NO GIVE!

[LoneWolf]

One thing to consider is that not all players can handle all concepts.  For the most part a player should have great leeway in the concept of his character, but sometimes the player is not well suited to run particular concept.   For example, a cosmic VPP is probably one of the most difficult characters to actually run without bringing the game to a crawl.  In my gaming group there is only one player I would trust to run this type of character.  

 

While a speedster is not as difficult to run as that it can create problems.  A character with an extremely high SPD might need to be limited to players with at least some familiarity with the system. A player that is complexly new to the system or that lacks basic understanding of the game might be better steered to a different concept.  Almost anyone posting on this board probably has enough understand to handle it, but that does not mean everyone will. 
 

[Hugh Neilson]

On 8/28/2024 at 1:45 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I was wondering if there ever was one, I couldn't remember him.  But that was a remarkably low speed character.  Normal human stats by definition are untrained, unathletic ordinary folks.  Like most gamers and game writers.

 

Why doesn't VIPER have higher speed characters?  Because they aren't as trained or gifted as superheroes.  They're much more trained than ordinary people (which is why they have 3 and 4 speed) but they aren't super well trained.  I mean... is this such a challenging concept?

 

SPD 2 is "normal".  Average. Neither exceptionally fast nor exceptionally slow.  [and it was Giganto!]  10 primaries are above average.  8 is an average person, 10 is a bit higher.

 

So EVERY Super is a highly trained combatant, even more so than members of an elite paramilitary force, and being only as fast as a top-end elite member of a military or paramilitary force is slow and plodding compared to average SPD 5 Supers?  That's not how I view the source material.  Many supers are average in many respects that fall outside their Super abilities. Most will improve over time - they get a lot of practice in Supers combat - but if we had started 1e with Supers having SPD 2-4, with the occasional plodding 1 and some rare 5-6 SPD supers for whom exceptional SPD was part of their schtick, we would all have played basically the same game with those baselines.

[Grailknight]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

SPD 2 is "normal".  Average. Neither exceptionally fast nor exceptionally slow.  [and it was Giganto!]  10 primaries are above average.  8 is an average person, 10 is a bit higher.

 

So EVERY Super is a highly trained combatant, even more so than members of an elite paramilitary force, and being only as fast as a top-end elite member of a military or paramilitary force is slow and plodding compared to average SPD 5 Supers?  That's not how I view the source material.  Many supers are average in many respects that fall outside their Super abilities. Most will improve over time - they get a lot of practice in Supers combat - but if we had started 1e with Supers having SPD 2-4, with the occasional plodding 1 and some rare 5-6 SPD supers for whom exceptional SPD was part of their schtick, we would all have played basically the same game with those baselines.

 

SPD 2 is not average for a PC. It's the base before any points are spent. That's the normal person you're basing your argument on, a 0 points plus 25 in Disadvantages NPC. We don't have to make average SPD 5, but well-trained soldier or athlete will be at 3. Maybe 5 percent of those will be considered "elite" and be at 4. If you want to put the majority of supers here and reserve higher values for especially quick supers, I don't see a problem. As to supers not being as trained as elite agents, supers routinely go in to fight alongside or rescue those forces. 

 

Having a higher SPD doesn't make you a highly trained combatant. That's a function of CV and Skill Levels. An NPC with a 3 or 4 SPD that has a 4 CV has more actions but isn't a threat to someone who spent points on combat. Plus, we're discussing baselines that were set up in 1st Edition. Having an 18 DEX put you 2 points from 3 SPD, a 23 DEX put you 7 points from 4 SPD. And you bought the DEX anyway for Skills and CV.

[Ninja-Bear]

Nah, when they made VIPER goons SPD 3 naturally every Hero is going to be higher. But the bigger question is though @Hugh Neilsonare you playing Hero with the reduced SPD? Because at the end of the day we can theorize if they would have started with lower speeds what it would like. However since this is Hero System we aren’t beholden to official stats. (It is easier to though-usually). 

[Steve]

38 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Nah, when they made VIPER goons SPD 3 naturally every Hero is going to be higher. But the bigger question is though @Hugh Neilsonare you playing Hero with the reduced SPD? Because at the end of the day we can theorize if they would have started with lower speeds what it would like. However since this is Hero System we aren’t beholden to official stats. (It is easier to though-usually). 

I wonder if VIPER goons at SPD 3 was the reaction to higher SPD heroes to make them a little more of a threat, or if heroes bought higher SPD scores to make agents less of a threat.

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

I wonder if VIPER goons at SPD 3 was the reaction to higher SPD heroes to make them a little more of a threat, or if heroes bought higher SPD scores to make agents less of a threat.

 

And heroes with the speed a lot of players like for every character, 1,000,000 Viper Agents to 1 Hero is absolutely no threat to the hero at all.

[LoneWolf]

12 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Having a higher SPD doesn't make you a highly trained combatant. That's a function of CV and Skill Levels. An NPC with a 3 or 4 SPD that has a 4 CV has more actions but isn't a threat to someone who spent points on combat. Plus, we're discussing baselines that were set up in 1st Edition. Having an 18 DEX put you 2 points from 3 SPD, a 23 DEX put you 7 points from 4 SPD. And you bought the DEX anyway for Skills and CV.

 

I have to disagree with this.  Being a highly trained combatant is more than just a single stat.  Not only will they have a higher CV they will also have a higher SPD, CON and probably at least PD, and most of the time ED.  Higher STR will be common, but not always the case. 

 

10 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Nah, when they made VIPER goons SPD 3 naturally every Hero is going to be higher. But the bigger question is though @Hugh Neilsonare you playing Hero with the reduced SPD? Because at the end of the day we can theorize if they would have started with lower speeds what it would like. However since this is Hero System we aren’t beholden to official stats. (It is easier to though-usually). 

 

If Viper agents are SPD 3, the Hero with a SPD 4 is higher.   Characters in latter editions of the Hero System have options that allow them to fight multiple opponents without needed a higher SPD.  Many of these were not in the earlier editions so the higher base SPD of 1E is understandable.  They adjusted expectations of some things, in the latter but have not made any in regards to SPD.   

[Grailknight]

3 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

 

I have to disagree with this.  Being a highly trained combatant is more than just a single stat.  Not only will they have a higher CV they will also have a higher SPD, CON and probably at least PD, and most of the time ED.  Higher STR will be common, but not always the case. 

 

CV is the not the only factor, but it's the foundation for everything. If you rarely miss and your opponent rarely hits you've got the advantage. And that happens at a gap of 2 CV.

 

3 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

 

 

If Viper agents are SPD 3, the Hero with a SPD 4 is higher.   Characters in latter editions of the Hero System have options that allow them to fight multiple opponents without needed a higher SPD.  Many of these were not in the earlier editions so the higher base SPD of 1E is understandable.  They adjusted expectations of some things, in the latter but have not made any in regards to SPD.   

 

To be fair, SPD above 5 was pretty constrained until the change in END cost from 1 per 5AP to 1 per 10 AP and the advent of 0 END cost for +1/2 in 4th. Those changes are what let the SPD genie out of the bottle.

[LoneWolf]

With a higher SPD a character can switch from full offensive to full defensive to take advantage of opportunities.  One tactic that is very effective is to go all out defensive until you have an opportunity to go when you opponent cannot and then switch to all-out offensive to take the target out.  Then in the next segment cancel back to the full defensive posture.  Since I cannot be attacked in the phase I am attacking, I can use maneuvers that tank my DCV and all my skill levels to OCV and or damage. 

 

Most of the time the character with the higher BASE CV cannot match what the switching character can achieve.  If you have to split your skill levels between OCV and DCV chances are you will not be able to hit the other character when he is doing a full defense and will get hit when he is going all-out offensive. Usually, the switching character gets 1 phase per point his SPD is higher than his opponent per turn to attack.  When he does attack it is usually way more effective than the other characters.  

 

Now this type of tactic does require you know the systems and are aware of your options.  So, for the most part it is usually only used by experienced players.  The tactic is not strictly limited to higher SPD characters, but they gain more benefit from it than lower SPD characters.   
 

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

With a higher SPD a character can switch from full offensive to full defensive to take advantage of opportunities.  One tactic that is very effective is to go all out defensive until you have an opportunity to go when you opponent cannot and then switch to all-out offensive to take the target out.  Then in the next segment cancel back to the full defensive posture.  Since I cannot be attacked in the phase I am attacking, I can use maneuvers that tank my DCV and all my skill levels to OCV and or damage. 

 

Most of the time the character with the higher BASE CV cannot match what the switching character can achieve.  If you have to split your skill levels between OCV and DCV chances are you will not be able to hit the other character when he is doing a full defense and will get hit when he is going all-out offensive. Usually, the switching character gets 1 phase per point his SPD is higher than his opponent per turn to attack.  When he does attack it is usually way more effective than the other characters.  

 

Now this type of tactic does require you know the systems and are aware of your options.  So, for the most part it is usually only used by experienced players.  The tactic is not strictly limited to higher SPD characters, but they gain more benefit from it than lower SPD characters.   
 

 

I'll give you the higher SPD here, but I don't follow your other reasoning.

 

What makes the character with higher base CV unable to take the same defensive actions on the turns where he doesn't move also? He can abort just like you plan to on the next segment.

 

Why can't he match you? He doesn't need as many levels because he has higher base CV. 

 

If you use maneuvers that tank your DCV, he can keep his levels focused on his DCV since he won't need them to hit you. 

 

It seems to me that you are reasoning from a position that the higher base CV character will have a disadvantage in SPD and a greater one in Levels. I'm just working with the idea that the cost in SPD is equal to the cost in CV. You're also giving the higher SPD character a greater knowledge of the rules.

Edited August 30 by Grailknight

[LoneWolf]

Assuming equal number of skill levels the character not switching tactics will need to split the levels between OCV and DCV.  The switching character on the other hand will be putting all his skill levels into one or the other.  When attacking his OCV will be maxed out, when defending his DCV will be maxed out.  The switching character will also be changing the maneuver more often.  

 

Take two characters one spent 10 points to gain an extra point of SPD, the other spent it to gain +1 OCV and DCV.  The character with the extra SPD has martial art with a sacrifice strike and a dodge.  The other characters an offensive strike and a dodge.  The first character has a SPD of 4 vs 3 for the other character. Both characters have 4 skill levels.  This keeps the character equal except for one has a higher SPD the other has higher CV.

 

In phase 12 the first character dodges and puts all skill levels to DCV.  The second character attacks and splits the skill levels.  The first character has a net of +1 OCV and a DCV of +4.  The first character has a net of +9 to his DCV which puts it 8 points higher than the first characters OCV.  The second character has a very low chance of hitting.  In Phase three the first character goes.  He attacks with the sacrifice strike and puts all skill levels into OCV.  That gives him a +5 net OCV and a 2 DCV.  The second character has a net 4 DCV so the second character has a 1-point advantage on his chance to hit which means he hits about 74% of the time. In round 4 when the second character attacks the first aborts to the dodge and goes back to having an extra 8 DCV.  If the lower SPD character aborts to a dodge he cannot attack so has 0% chance to hit.

 

Any character with skill levels in combat should be able to tell when his opponent CV changes due to using maneuvers and skill levels.   
 

Edited August 30 by LoneWolf

[Grailknight]

15 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

Assuming equal number of skill levels the character not switching tactics will need to split the levels between OCV and DCV.  The switching character on the other hand will be putting all his skill levels into one or the other.  When attacking his OCV will be maxed out, when defending his DCV will be maxed out.  The switching character will also be changing the maneuver more often.  

 

Take two characters one spent 10 points to gain an extra point of SPD, the other spent it to gain +1 OCV and DCV.  The character with the extra SPD has martial art with a sacrifice strike and a dodge.  The other characters an offensive strike and a dodge.  The first character has a SPD of 4 vs 3 for the other character. Both characters have 4 skill levels.  This keeps the character equal except for one has a higher SPD the other has higher CV.

 

In phase 12 the first character dodges and puts all skill levels to DCV.  The second character attacks and splits the skill levels.  The first character has a net of +1 OCV and a DCV of +4.  The first character has a net of +9 to his DCV which puts it 8 points higher than the first characters OCV.  The second character has a very low chance of hitting.  In Phase three the first character goes.  He attacks with the sacrifice strike and puts all skill levels into OCV.  That gives him a +5 net OCV and a 2 DCV.  The second character has a net 4 DCV so the second character has a 1-point advantage on his chance to hit which means he hits about 74% of the time. In round 4 when the second character attacks the first aborts to the dodge and goes back to having an extra 8 DCV.  If the lower SPD character aborts to a dodge he cannot attack so has 0% chance to hit.

 

Any character with skill levels in combat should be able to tell when his opponent CV changes due to using maneuvers and skill levels.   
 

 

Why don't they have the same moves?  Giving the higher SPD a move with a bonus to OCV and the slower SPD a move with a minus seems like tilting the playing field in the favor of your argument. 

 

Why doesn't the slower character Dodge in phase 3 and therefore phase 6? He can use the same tactics. Dodging in 3 lets him avoid 2 attacks with only one of his actions. By RAW, even though I house rule this out, he'd get the benefits of a Dodge in phase 9 and could still attack with all his levels on OCV if the higher SPD character acts faster. If the higher SPD delays, then there's an opposed DEX roll to determine order and they both attack at full OCV or do nothing if the slower SPD delays.

[LoneWolf]

I gave the faster character a more aggressive maneuver because it fits the style of combat he engages in. part of what makes this strategy work for the higher SPD character is the willingness to go all out.  If they did have the same maneuver the faster character would put his levels into DCV and attack in 12.  That would give him 3 attacks vs 2 even if 1 has less chance to hit.   

[Grailknight]

How do you call a character that's only willing to go all out when he can't be attacked in turn aggressive? Seem cautious and calculating to me.

 

Given all things being equal, the higher SPD character will have 1 more attack with a one lower chance to hit and also have a one greater chance to be hit. The lower SPD hits on a 7 and is hit on a 6, the higher hits on a 6 and is hit on a 7. It's going to be a very long fight. If a single hit is all it takes, luck will be the deciding factor.

[Doc Democracy]

One point of SPD difference is marginal. I don't think anyone in the discussion thinks 1 additional point is a game-changer, or even 2. 

 

I think the difference really begins to bite at 3.

 

I remember running a Deathstroke rip-off against my group, 500 point villain versus four 350 point heroes.  He had a slight damage advantage, a slight CV advantage and he had SPD 12, where the heroes were 5 and 6. In the first turn he almost won the fight, one hero was down, the players quickly realised they needed to delay and ensure he was engaged in every phase.  That made it tighter but they were having to work at full tilt to stay in the fight.

 

If the fourth character had not got back into the fight, they would have lost, they managed to hold him off and, wisely, did not chase when he broke off the combat.

 

I would not gave believed the impact SPD 12 would have until I ran it. Going on segment 1 is amazingly useful, I regularly now have players holding phase 12, losing the recovery to get a strike in on segment 1.  That came from their experience in that fight.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

22 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

SPD 2 is not average for a PC. It's the base before any points are spent. That's the normal person you're basing your argument on, a 0 points plus 25 in Disadvantages NPC.

 

Exactly my statement. 2 SPD is not exceptionally slow and plodding.  It is the SPD of a normal, average person.  It is reasonable for some Supers to be at that level, especially as starting Supers.  However...

 

22 hours ago, Grailknight said:

well-trained soldier or athlete will be at 3.

 

That's going to be the baseline for a lot of Supers, even starting Supers, and even a starting Super with SPD 2 is likely to raise it with XP as they gain more combat experience.  A decent portion of Supers are elite, top-end human athletes and combatants, which means

 

22 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 those will be considered "elite" and be at 4.

 

When we set 4 SPD as slow, plodding Supers, those elites don't look so elite any more. They look slow and plodding.

 

22 hours ago, Grailknight said:

As to supers not being as trained as elite agents, supers routinely go in to fight alongside or rescue those forces. 

 

Sure.  They have abilities far beyond those elite soldiers.  Attacks and defenses well beyond those elites are common.  But agents of SHIELD, much less Nick Fury, don't look slow and plodding when they work with the Fantastic Four or the Avengers.  Captain America moves considerably faster. The Thing and Mr. Famtastic?  Not so much.

 

DEX and CV is similar.  If we dropped DEX by 8-10 across the board, we would see average Supers with a 13 rather than a 23, and some slow Supers with that baseline 8 - 10.  Their CVs could drop 3 points across the board and they would interact with one another like they always have.  Agent blasts would bounce off low DCV Bricks rather than missing unless they get a super-lucky roll. Rather than 6 - 10 base CV, Supers could get by fine with 3 - 7.

 

20 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Nah, when they made VIPER goons SPD 3 naturally every Hero is going to be higher. But the bigger question is though @Hugh Neilsonare you playing Hero with the reduced SPD? Because at the end of the day we can theorize if they would have started with lower speeds what it would like. However since this is Hero System we aren’t beholden to official stats. (It is easier to though-usually). 

 

That ship sailed at the Dawn of Hero, when 1e set the "slow Brick" at DEX 18, SPD 4.  6e especially was an opportunity to reassess, but backwards compatibility was chosen, with many good reasons.  Although it really would not be tough to drop all DEXes by 8-10 (I would use bearkpoints there), all CVs by 3 and all SPDs by 2 and end up with characters being just as comparable.

 

 

4 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Assuming equal number of skill levels the character not switching tactics will need to split the levels between OCV and DCV.  The switching character on the other hand will be putting all his skill levels into one or the other.  When attacking his OCV will be maxed out, when defending his DCV will be maxed out.  The switching character will also be changing the maneuver more often.  

 

Take two characters one spent 10 points to gain an extra point of SPD, the other spent it to gain +1 OCV and DCV.  The character with the extra SPD has martial art with a sacrifice strike and a dodge.  The other characters an offensive strike and a dodge.  The first character has a SPD of 4 vs 3 for the other character. Both characters have 4 skill levels.  This keeps the character equal except for one has a higher SPD the other has higher CV.

In phase 12 the first character dodges and puts all skill levels to DCV.  The second character attacks and splits the skill levels.  

 

Why?  Is the second character stupid? The first character dodged.  He can't attack.  There is no reason for the second character to put anything to DCV if he wants to attack, rather than flee (if his goal was to steal something and escape), move behind cover so the Dodger can't see him or take some other action rather than just standing toe to toe and trading shots. 

 

If he IS going to attack, why shouldn't he put all levels in OCV?  He can Abort to Dodge in Segment 1 if he needs to. If Character 1 attacks in Phase 3, Character 2 can Abort and get his Dodge bonus right into Phase 8.  Or we could give the lower SPD character a Block instead of a Dodge (he can still use the standard Dodge if he wants).

 

Or he can tough out one Sacrifice Strike (when Character 1 puts everything in OCV) and respond with a much more damaging Offensive Strike after taking that hit, and in the same segment so Character 1 can't Abort to restore his DCV.

 

We could also give Character 2 another 2 skill levels instead of +1 OCV and +1 DCV.

[LoneWolf]

The reason for the second character not to put everything in OCV is the second character is going first.  If the first character has a higher DEX he saves phase and aborts if he is attacked.  That means the second character has to declare the maneuver and distribute the skill levels.  Since the first character is aborting he can distribute the skill levels in response to the attack.  This may result in a Mexican standoff as both characters wait for the other to attack.  

 

If the second character does not attack the first in 12 and does something else, the first character can go all out against him in 12 and will attack again in 3.   If that happens and the second character is stunned, he is going to be at a severe disadvantage in 3.  

 

The sacrifice strike does as much damage as an offensive strike.  The only difference between them the modifiers to OCV and DCV.