My existential crisis about SPD

[Gauntlet]

47 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The standard for Champions, set way back in 1e, was about 2 SPD too high.  Supers ended up clustered at SPD 5 - 6 when 3 - 4 would have worked just as well.

 

And that is definitely an issue. With Many characters there just isn't a good reason to buy up their SPD that high. There should be more 3 SPD characters as it put them above Normals but not so overwhelmingly high that they can no longer work with Normals.

[Duke Bushido]

Hugh is completely correct, and as someone who is still buulding 250 pt 2e characters, it is nice to see someone "get it" once in a while.

 

 

 

Now here is the thing that I think we _all_ figured out, way back in the day, but for some reason don't talk about:

 

The SPD characteristic is the perfect thing making super-powered speedsters.   We talk all the way _around_ that, of course.  There is an entire separate book with advice and suggestions on how to build a super powered speedster without actually building a super-fast speedster.

 

We give lots of advice on how to "simulate" the things a speedster can do and convince ourselves that just buying lots of movement is kinda the same thing, even when we know in our hearts that it is _not_.

 

You can spend two hundred points worth of AoE on your STR to simulate that your speedster ran all around the room, punched ten guys, and for whatever reason, decided to return to his exact starting position.  Not great if the room is on fire.  And how much so you have to spend to make sure that your area is at least enough to cover your combat move?

 

You can buy six different Change Environments and a couple of   cosmetic T-forms and Instant Change and STR: AoE and four hundred points of other things that simulate a tiny portion of the Schticks that a speedster has at his disposal, and still not have the same feel- or even utility- and a guy who dumped 100 points into SPD and another 20 or so making his STR zero END, or his movement Zero,END, or whatever.

 

Because no matter how many little tricks you buy your SPD:5 speedster, he can only do five things in the course of a Turn.  The true SPD:12 speedster-  or even higher!  It isn't like 12 is an impossible barrier; it is merely the point where the pattern repeats.  STR doesn't stop just because the chart does!  What makes us assume SPD does?

 

So your SPD:5 speedster with some nifty tricks (maybe a permissive GM let you put AoE on your Martial Disarm.  That's pretty cool!) Can use exactly five of those nifty tricks.  SPD:12 can do _twelve_ things per Turn!  SPD 24 can do even more!  At SPD 96, you can almost decode the blur of movement that is Barry Allen!

 

Speed is _not_ broken!  I know, that is the delusional fever dream of a madman, but remember this:  I don't give a red rolly rat's rump how many splatbooks and genres are published under the guise of HERO System.  HERO _is_ Champions.  It isnt even a core pulles out of Champions: it is the exact same rules (pulling all the niche rules into one core rule book will do that to a game) with different special effects and a new list of what is off limits.

 

Champions _is_ superpowers.  No matter what you _want_ to play, as long as you are playing Champions, there will be rules for speedsters, because speedsters are one of the absolute archetypes of super powered person, going all the way back to Superman.

 

I submit that _speedsters_ are broken, at least when it comes to interaction with non-speedsters.  Even the Flash TV show-  filled with villainous speedsters!  Why?  Because outside of truly creative author fiat,  anything else is a joke.

 

And the temptation-  everyone wants an edge; even in cooperative gaming, it is an edge, and everyone wants it.  What is better than _one more action_ before the round ends?

 

The question is this:

 

If you are not playing superheroes, why are you using SPD at all?

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Oh my - now Jane Ordinary can hit Brickly with her purse (on a 10 or less assuming Brickly's CV is dropped to 4.  So, with a heavy purse adding +1 1/2d6 HTH to her 8 STR, she can do 3d6+1 normal damage.  On a maximum roll of 19 STUN and 6 BOD, Brickly might even notice she is there!

 

Brickly isn't Super because he's fast. I would also expect that only the slowest of Supers would have a SPD 2.  That would be the Supers who presently have SPD 4, and even many Bricks in Champion writeups have SPD 5.

 

The whole point is that the net effect against other Supers is largely unchanged, but Supers whose schtick has nothing to do with enhanced reflexes or super speed no longer run rings around a Normal, "only" move 50% faster (SPD 3 vs 2) or react twice as fast (SPD 4 vs 2). 

With an average Super at 5 - 6 SPD, a 7 or 8 is not all that impressive.  If the typical Super has a SPD of 3-4, Spidey can be truly Amazing with a SPD of 6.

 

 

The standard for Champions, set way back in 1e, was about 2 SPD too high.  Supers ended up clustered at SPD 5 - 6 when 3 - 4 would have worked just as well.

Something to consider Hugh when Champions first came out END was ACT/5. So I’m wondering if SPD was higher so the Heroes could catch a breather. Also Surbrook many a year ago pointed out that since 1e, editions have now allowed more things to happen in a Phase like Multi Attack. I believe he felt SPD should be lower now because the game allows for more options than before. I think we should at the rules as a whole before we say 1e were too high. It wouldn’t be too hard to make a proxy game of 6th to run like 1e and reduce the SPD as you suggest and seem if it feels right. Maybe it will or maybe it won’t.

[Gauntlet]

SPD is definitely an important Characteristic. I just can't see all Superheroes having a SPD lowest of 5-6.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

The question is this:

 

If you are not playing superheroes, why are you using SPD at all?

 

 

Because as I have stated several times, Speed is not just movement or actions, its tactical.  It can represent superior combat training.  A trained martial artist for whom reaction time is much faster than an untrained person and who has the moves and attacks so ingrained that they happen without conscious thought has more actions in combat than someone who is not.  Further, a higher speed gives you tactical advantages in combat that a lower speed does not. 

 

Captain Canada is able to use her higher speed to recover safely in combat, abort to a block or dodge, delay to act to protect another character in case she needs to, etc.  Someone with a 3 speed has fewer tactical options in a turn than someone with a 5 speed.  That's true in Danger International just as it is in Champions. In Fantasy Hero it gets even more options; magical "haste" can grant more speed.  A certain kind of fae might be super fast while a lumbering barbarian not so much so.

 

I agree that characters can see a power creep with speed just to move more even if it makes no sense to the character.  EVERY energy projector had to have at least 5 speed in 4th edition, even if they had no special training.  Having your brick able to act 6 times in a turn is fun but does it make sense?  So there's an extreme in that direction that you don't want to get into as a GM or players.  But having too low speed also causes problems.

[Doc Democracy]

17 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

If you are not playing superheroes, why are you using SPD at all?

 

Because it is a fundamental part of the system.  You get [SPD] actions between each free recovery.  My question is really about what we charge for varying it.

 

I would be happy playing a Justice Inc campaign where all the characters had SPD 4 or 5 or even 6 for free.  It would mean they probably had to think about recovering and not using attacks on some of their actions to better conserve their END.  I would, if the PCs were SPD 4 increase normals to SPD 3 and if the PCs were SPD 6 increase normals to SPD 4.   To be fully open, I would also play in a game where there was no option to increase/decrease SPD but everything was set.

The actual SPD does not matter (outside of END management) it is the relative difference between characters, normals and everything else.

 

And once you have that (a campaign SPD) then everything else is about the cost of varying it.  If Campaign SPD is high then the value of increasing one or two points is less than if the Campaign SPD is low. 

 

But SPD is fundamental to the system.

 

 

[Gauntlet]

18 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

The question is this:

 

If you are not playing superheroes, why are you using SPD at all?

 

Because it makes Combat a hell of a lot more interesting then the I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go.

[Duke Bushido]

 

 

 

 

58 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

But SPD is fundamental to the system.

 

 

 

 

You are not wrong.

 

But it is a fundamental part of a superhero-building system, and using it will result in super powered beings.  Bluntly put, you are wither okay with that, oe you are not.

 

If you are okay with it, then what is to be gained by penalizing the character for buying it?

 

If you are _not_ okay with it, making it more expensive doesnt make ir to away; it is still a thing that you are going to have to deal with, simply because someone will find it worthwhile, and because eventually, everyone is going to run out of not-SPD places to dump their XPs.

 

 

 

 

[Gauntlet]

47 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

and because eventually, everyone is going to run out of not-SPD places to dump their XPs.

 

Not sure of that. I am running a game that went from starting at 350 and is now at just over 900, and my players have found plenty to purchase other than Speed. My whole thing is that if a player wants a higher speed, give a reasoning for it. No extra cost, just a reason other than I want to go more times in a turn or I have nothing other to spend points on. With this I have never stated that a character could not buy up their Speed.

[Doc Democracy]

5 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

But it is a fundamental part of a superhero-building system, and using it will result in super powered beings.  Bluntly put, you are wither okay with that, oe you are not.

 

If you are okay with it, then what is to be gained by penalizing the character for buying it?

 

As I said, I am not sure I buy the fact that higher speeds are integral to superherodom (cept for the impact on running speed!).  I would be content with SPD being how many actions you get in 12 seconds and to buy movement powers by the turn rather than by the phase.

 

I would also contest the use of penalising.  Are we saying that spending points for an in game benefit is a penalty? 🙂

 

I think SPD multiplies the impact of almost everything else.  It increases your damage output, it increases your movement, it provides options in combat that might aid both offensively and defensively. It allows for more rapid recovery of STUN and END.  How could something like that NOT be worth points, and potentially worth more than 10 points per point?

 

My big issue with high SPD differentials us the impact on the players.  If my fast guy goes 12 times a turn, the brick goes 5 times and the blaster goes 6 times, I get more spotlight time than both my mates put together. That might work because I am so entertaining and charismatic,  but what if Dull Joe has the SPD 12 character?

 

Doc

[Gauntlet]

44 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

but what if Dull Joe has the SPD 12 character?

 

The truth is that if Dull Joe has 1 Action, 2 Actions, 6 Actions, 12 Actions, or 7,624,954,732,186,881,258 Actions, it doesn't matter, we all will still be digging our own graves.

[Hugh Neilson]

8 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Because as I have stated several times, Speed is not just movement or actions, its tactical.  It can represent superior combat training.  A trained martial artist for whom reaction time is much faster than an untrained person and who has the moves and attacks so ingrained that they happen without conscious thought has more actions in combat than someone who is not.  Further, a higher speed gives you tactical advantages in combat that a lower speed does not.

 

I don't think that is the real question. In a typical Champions game, the average Super will have a 5 SPD. That Martial Artist might have a 7. If the average Super had a 3 SPD, that Martial Artist with a 5 SPD would have similar advantages.

 

8 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I agree that characters can see a power creep with speed just to move more even if it makes no sense to the character.  EVERY energy projector had to have at least 5 speed in 4th edition, even if they had no special training.  Having your brick able to act 6 times in a turn is fun but does it make sense?  So there's an extreme in that direction that you don't want to get into as a GM or players.  But having too low speed also causes problems.

 

So how fast should they be?  I don't think anyone is proposing a 1 SPD be remotely common. A 2 SPD for that lumbering Brick (or barbarian), a 3 SPD for a typical Super, a 4 SPD for the top end of Normal and a 6 SPD for that legendary Martial Artist (or hasted Fae) seems like it would achieve all of your objectives.

6 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Because it makes Combat a hell of a lot more interesting then the I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go, you go, I go.

 

Is I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go inherently superior?  If so, why?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

In a typical Champions game, the average Super will have a 5 SPD. That Martial Artist might have a 7. If the average Super had a 3 SPD, that Martial Artist with a 5 SPD would have similar advantages.

 

I honestly don't know what the average champions game stats are.  Possibly the only way to do that sort of survey would be to go through all the NPCs for a given edition and get an average from that.  I know that my games the average is probably 5ish, with bricks having 4 speed and the speedster types like 7-9.  I did have one guy run an 11 speed speedster, but he was an inherently slow decision maker, so that didn't work out well.

 

Quote

...you go inherently superior?  If so, why?

 

Variety?  Unpredictability of actions?  Demonstrating that one character is more skilled than another in combat than another?  Does this really have to be said in an era where EVERY RPG has a system that varies when everyone acts?

[Gauntlet]

Quote

Is I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go inherently superior?  If so, why?

 

Now I don't say that is the way to go but you do need to remember that if I am at 1 SPD to your 12 SPD I do have 110 more points to spend on my defenses and my attacks, which many times may mean that when you hit me, so what, but when I hit you, goodby. Second, I never said that 1 SPD is a good idea, I just said that everyone going back and forth got rather boring. I have plenty of times played slower characters yet still could take on characters that have a much higher SPD then me. There are many things you can do, the first one is just because you go in phases 3, 6, 9, 12 based on your 4 SPD, it does not mean that you have to actually act in phase 3, 6, 9, 12. Holding action is many times a good thing to do to outthink your opponent. And last when running games I want players to let me know why they have things, SPD included. If you are just a Brick (with a why of being made of Stone) with a 11 DEX why would you have a 12 SPD, if you can give me a good reason, no problem, if you can't, you might want to think things through. 

Edited August 28 by Gauntlet
I am too quick to hit the Save key.

[Gauntlet]

Now, should players be basing their characters on their SPD, hell no. SPD is just one part of your character, you need to think the entire character through (including history and reasons for being a hero), not just one Characteristic.

[unclevlad]

3 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

It allows for more rapid recovery of STUN and END.  

 

It also means you're burning through END a lot faster.  

 

A plausible fix might be to consider that taking a mid-term recovery is more punitive...it shouldn't be easy...or, you don't get back as much.  

 

Another issue might also be allowing too many limitations on things, which might be strongly damping the END issues with high SPD and/or setting things up to make mid-turn recoveries easy.

[Doc Democracy]

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Is I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go,I go, you go, you go, you go inherently superior?  If so, why?

 

That was a lot of effort to back up a point.  I have not sought to confirm if you got it right or what speeds you based it on. Respect!

[Doc Democracy]

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

It also means you're burning through END a lot faster.  

 

A plausible fix might be to consider that taking a mid-term recovery is more punitive...it shouldn't be easy...or, you don't get back as much.  

 

That is one of the reasons I have few qualms about "high speed heroic" games. 🙂

 

The high speed would give them something to consider as free recoveries come round less often.  It might make for more considered combat decisions, more ducking and diving or resting behind cover.

 

I would not make any adjustments beyond switching movement to meters per turn.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

15 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I honestly don't know what the average champions game stats are.  Possibly the only way to do that sort of survey would be to go through all the NPCs for a given edition and get an average from that.  I know that my games the average is probably 5ish, with bricks having 4 speed and the speedster types like 7-9.  I did have one guy run an 11 speed speedster, but he was an inherently slow decision maker, so that didn't work out well.

 

 

Variety?  Unpredictability of actions?  Demonstrating that one character is more skilled than another in combat than another?  Does this really have to be said in an era where EVERY RPG has a system that varies when everyone acts?

 

From reading characters over the editions, I think most of us have a pretty fair idea of Champions stats.  4 SPD is very slow for a Super, and quite rare.  5 is the common SPD, with a lot of 6s.  7s tend to be more rare, for MAs and Speedsters.  That range appeared from 1e on.  I am drawing a blank on SPDs higher than 7, outside of likely some master villains intended to battle experienced teams all by themselves, and one unusual character from an old Adventurers Club who had a 12.

How is there less variety, unpredictability of actions or demonstrations that one character is more skilled than another in combat than another if Supers SPD ranges from 2 to 6 versus 4 to 8?  Other than the increased variety that some are no faster than normal people, and many no faster than well-trained and experienced non-Super combatants?

 

15 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

There are many things you can do, the first one is just because you go in phases 3, 6, 9, 12 based on your 4 SPD, it does not mean that you have to actually act in phase 3, 6, 9, 12. Holding action is many times a good thing to do to outthink your opponent.

 

 Sure. But I can do those things if everyone has a 4 SPD too.  We don't have to just trade attacks.

 

9 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

That was a lot of effort to back up a point.  I have not sought to confirm if you got it right or what speeds you based it on. Respect!

 

It wasn't, really - copy & paste is pretty powerful

 

9 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

That is one of the reasons I have few qualms about "high speed heroic" games. 🙂

 

The high speed would give them something to consider as free recoveries come round less often.  It might make for more considered combat decisions, more ducking and diving or resting behind cover.

 

I would not make any adjustments beyond switching movement to meters per turn.

 

This comes back to Gauntlet's comments. If everyone attacks on their phase, then a troop of 3 SPD VIPER agents allows a 6 SPD super to take recoveries.  If a couple of agents delay and wait for that Super to slow down and catch his breath, they can take advantage of his lowered defenses and mess up that recovery.  If he goes and hides behind a dumpster, he'll likely get a recovery, but the agents are free to accomplish the real goal in the meantime.  If one of them grabbed the Maguffin and the 10 agents all take off in different directions, I like their odds.

[Doc Democracy]

25 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

one of them grabbed the Maguffin and the 10 agents all take off in different directions, I like their odds.

 

That's when Batman steps out in front of one of the agents, takes him out with one punch and retrieves the maguffin with his other hand  as the agent slumps to the ground.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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How is there less variety, unpredictability of actions or demonstrations that one character is more skilled than another in combat than another if Supers SPD ranges from 2 to 6 versus 4 to 8?

 

Again, you misunderstand my point.  I am responding to people that say the average superhero should be 2-3 Speed, not 6. 

 

I am absolutely wracking my brain over 40+ years of role playing and cannot come up with a single character in print or made by a player that had 2 speed, though.  That's really low, its someone with zero training or ability in combat, like someone who is an IT specialist that gets superpowers but is still a clod.  Even someone who is a mentalist usually has higher speed to represent their mental abilities, how fast they think. 

 

I could see someone build a mentalist with 2 speed,+2 speed for mental powers, maybe?  But never one with just 2 speed.

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Again, you misunderstand my point.  I am responding to people that say the average superhero should be 2-3 Speed, not 6. 

 

I am absolutely wracking my brain over 40+ years of role playing and cannot come up with a single character in print or made by a player that had 2 speed, though.  That's really low, its someone with zero training or ability in combat, like someone who is an IT specialist that gets superpowers but is still a clod.  Even someone who is a mentalist usually has higher speed to represent their mental abilities, how fast they think. 

 

I could see someone build a mentalist with 2 speed,+2 speed for mental powers, maybe?  But never one with just 2 speed.

 

The key to me is "in print".

 

The reality is that 1e set the standard that a typical Super would have a SPD of 5 when they could just as easily have set it at 3, such that a slow Super could have a 2 (the same as a Normal), an average Super (whether starting or from experience in superpowered combat) could have a 3 (like combat-trained normals), pushing to 4 (like elite, exceptionally combat-trained and experienced normals) with a 5 pushing past the boundaries of "human" into "legendary" and 6+ being clearly beyond human scope.

 

Why is a normal human "a clod"? They are average, with limited combat training or experience.

Oh, and as I recall Prof Muerte's Brick [name escapes me] had a 2 SPD, but was noteworthy as a Super in that regard, as I cannot recall any other Super with a SPD below 4, and most of those "peak humans" were described as "slow and plodding" or similar.

 

If Hero had started with Supers in 1e having SPD 2 (big, lumbering Bricks like Ogre), 3 - 4 (typical Supers like Starburst and Crusader) and maybe 5 (really skilled Martial Artists like Green Dragon), then Supers would have been just as Super even if VIPER agents had a 3 SPD and beat cops were SPD 2.

VIPER agents engage in heavy combat training - why don't they have SPD 5 - 6 like "average Supers"?

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Oh, and as I recall Prof Muerte's Brick [name escapes me] had a 2 SPD, but was noteworthy as a Super in that regard, as I cannot recall any other Super with a SPD below 4, and most of those "peak humans" were described as "slow and plodding" or similar.

 

 

I was wondering if there ever was one, I couldn't remember him.  But that was a remarkably low speed character.  Normal human stats by definition are untrained, unathletic ordinary folks.  Like most gamers and game writers.

 

Why doesn't VIPER have higher speed characters?  Because they aren't as trained or gifted as superheroes.  They're much more trained than ordinary people (which is why they have 3 and 4 speed) but they aren't super well trained.  I mean... is this such a challenging concept?

[Steve]

Another issue to consider is not really bound up in the points paid and is admittedly metagaming. Decision paralysis can greatly lengthen combat by giving more indecisive players with higher SPD scores even more opportunities to be indecisive and thus a greater effect on combat duration.

 

If player A has a 4 SPD and makes quick decisions in under a minute each time their phase comes up, but player B takes several minutes to make a choice each time their phase comes up, do we want that player to have a character with an 8 SPD? That gives them even more opportunities to slow things down.

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

Another issue to consider is not really bound up in the points paid and is admittedly metagaming. Decision paralysis can greatly lengthen combat by giving more indecisive players with higher SPD scores even more opportunities to be indecisive and thus a greater effect on combat duration.

 

If player A has a 4 SPD and makes quick decisions in under a minute each time their phase comes up, but player B takes several minutes to make a choice each time their phase comes up, do we want that player to have a character with an 8 SPD? That gives them even more opportunities to slow things down.

 

This is an issue of player B, not the rules.

 

If SPD is lowered across the board, that indecisive player will still cause delays. Their effect will remain proportional to their relative SPD vs the other players. 

 

Lowering SPD does not shorten combat. Without a change in damage vs defenses, it will always lengthen it. The number of hits a character takes in a turn will be lower, leading to more post segment 12 recoveries thus raising the number of hits it takes to defeat an opponent. END usage will also become less of a factor for the same reason.