My existential crisis about SPD

[Ninja-Bear]

8 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

An energy blaster usually only has to move to make sure they can get a shot.

I found No Range Penalty works wonders for this.

[Hugh Neilson]

32 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I found No Range Penalty works wonders for this.

Even a few penalty skill levels against range modifiers can cover most of a typical battlemat.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

The "wow - Supers run fast" issue is one more ripple effect of the legacy from 1e of Speed Inflation.  When 4 SPD was set as a slow, pokey Brick way back in 1e, we set the pace for 5-6 SPD average Supers, 7+ for really fast.

 

What would change if we dropped SPD by 2 across the board (leaving below-Supers alone)?

 

A slow, pokey Brick is now SPD 2, just like a normal person.  So the soldiers or cops can shoot at them - so what?  The bullets just bounce off.

An average Super is now SPD 3 - 4,  Above human average but not outside human norms. 

 

SPD 5+ is legendary to superhuman like the rules indicate.

Agents can keep a 3 SPD.  Elite agents can even has a SPD 4.

 

We have less phases per turn, so Recovery becomes more valuable, and points spent on END management can be reduced.

 

We could also drop DEXes by about 10 and CVs by 3 without impacting how Supers scale relative to one another.  Now those elite Agents actually look Elite, thug's bullets bounce off those super-tough Bricks instead of being nimbly Dodged and we get, at least IMO, closer to the source material. 

 

Plus, we free up a lot of points for abilities that differentiate Supers from what are now character taxes to have enough DEX, SPD, END and CV to be on par with everyone else.

[unclevlad]

6 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I found No Range Penalty works wonders for this.

 

I would hope a +1/2 advantage would be useful.

 

That 12 DC blast with No Range Mod is also burning 9 END per...or 4 END even with 1/2 END.  It's useful, sure, but No Range Mod is, to me, for sniper-type builds or glass cannons.  As Hugh notes, PSLs vs. range mods are much cheaper, don't force your MP size up huge, and don't cost END.

 

EDIT:  side note.  5E doesn't have it, but 6E has Half Range Mod, which is only +1/4.  Order of ops with half range mods makes it *extremely* favorable.

1.  Determine range mod.

2.  Cut in half.  Beneficial rounding applies.

3.  Apply range mod adjustments from PSLs or ranged martial maneuvers.

 

So with half range mods and Basic Shot (+2 to offset range mods), you're -0 out to 48 meters if using the more graduated range mod steps, and only -1 at 64 meters.  

[Ninja-Bear]

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The "wow - Supers run fast" issue is one more ripple effect of the legacy from 1e of Speed Inflation.  When 4 SPD was set as a slow, pokey Brick way back in 1e, we set the pace for 5-6 SPD average Supers, 7+ for really fast.

 

What would change if we dropped SPD by 2 across the board (leaving below-Supers alone)?

 

A slow, pokey Brick is now SPD 2, just like a normal person.  So the soldiers or cops can shoot at them - so what?  The bullets just bounce off.

An average Super is now SPD 3 - 4,  Above human average but not outside human norms. 

 

SPD 5+ is legendary to superhuman like the rules indicate.

Agents can keep a 3 SPD.  Elite agents can even has a SPD 4.

 

We have less phases per turn, so Recovery becomes more valuable, and points spent on END management can be reduced.

 

We could also drop DEXes by about 10 and CVs by 3 without impacting how Supers scale relative to one another.  Now those elite Agents actually look Elite, thug's bullets bounce off those super-tough Bricks instead of being nimbly Dodged and we get, at least IMO, closer to the source material. 

 

Plus, we free up a lot of points for abilities that differentiate Supers from what are now character taxes to have enough DEX, SPD, END and CV to be on par with everyone else.

You have mentioned this on many occasion and on the surface it seems good. However I looked at this and for me I didn’t like on how few Phases a Hero has compared to Normals. A hero should have at least one more Phase than a Normal.

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

You have mentioned this on many occasion and on the surface it seems good. However I looked at this and for me I didn’t like on how few Phases a Hero has compared to Normals. A hero should have at least one more Phase than a Normal.

 

First:  why?  Should all Supers also be stronger, more intelligent and higher Ego?  Or should their superiority be in the things that set them apart?

Second, if you drop Supers by 2 SPD, most will have 3-4.  Very few would end up with a 2 SPD, and they would then be as slow and poky as a normal person.

 

In the source material, I don't find that the Supers get 2 actions for every one a Normal gets, much less an "elite normal".

[LoneWolf]

I have to agree with Hugh on this, but would put any combat trained character at 3 SPD.  The “average” super hero should be at 4 SPD, with someone particularly fast being at 5 SPD.   A 6 SPD would be a speedster.  The 5 SPD might buy down their movement slightly. 

 

At these SPD’s buy back a few m of movement is actually more feasible.  A 5 SPD character with a 10m move can move 50m per turn and move 25m using half moves.  Compare that to the 4 SPD character with 12m that gets 48m of move and 24m using half moves.  
 

[unclevlad]

I like the premise that supers are generally better than normals...but it need not be dramatically so.  And I'd also have no issue saying 'baseline normal' is 8s across the board, not 10s.  And if it's not in their area...how strong should Doc Strange be, 13 or so?  What does he really need STR for?

 

And yeah...SPD 2 can readily cover lots of ground.  SPD 4 is acting twice as often.  

 

In this scenario, tho, I'd go up to an 8.  If a regular super is twice as fast as a normal, then a speedster caps out at twice as fast as a regular super.

 

I'd also reserve SPD 3 to be an *elite* combat-trained character...up to street-level hero, in fact.  Most combat training is better modeled, IMO, with skill levels and perhaps Lightning Reflexes.

EDIT:  lemme expand on that.  If we're compacting the SPD scale...especially if the top end might be 6, but 8's not that much broader...then the SPD steps are of necessity VERY coarse.  So, OK, a 1 SPD likely represents infirmity or limited capacity of some type.  The vast majority of normals would be at 2.  I don't think basic military or police training should be enough to raise it to 3...that should be the low end of exceptional.  Keep the categories broad, and now those 3 SPD supers are still looking better, much less the 4 SPD.

 

 

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

I have to agree with Hugh on this, but would put any combat trained character at 3 SPD.  The “average” super hero should be at 4 SPD, with someone particularly fast being at 5 SPD.   A 6 SPD would be a speedster.  The 5 SPD might buy down their movement slightly. 

 

At these SPD’s buy back a few m of movement is actually more feasible.  A 5 SPD character with a 10m move can move 50m per turn and move 25m using half moves.  Compare that to the 4 SPD character with 12m that gets 48m of move and 24m using half moves.  
 

 

In the case of SPD, I can agree with the philosophy of this. Most Normals are 2 SPD, the highly trained are 3 and the rare elites may reach 4 on occasion. Supers should average 4-5 SPD, with 6 or above being rare.

 

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

First:  why?  Should all Supers also be stronger, more intelligent and higher Ego?  Or should their superiority be in the things that set them apart?

Second, if you drop Supers by 2 SPD, most will have 3-4.  Very few would end up with a 2 SPD, and they would then be as slow and poky as a normal person.

 

In the source material, I don't find that the Supers get 2 actions for every one a Normal gets, much less an "elite normal".

 

As to why on Characteristics like STR, DEX, INT or PRE, Supers need to be better than a trained Normal. 

 

The characters that Supers interact with aren't the Normals with the base 8's. If a Super goes to consult with an NPC, they're talking to the experts. Bond doesn't talk to Q's lab techs, who may have 13's, he deals with Q with his 18+. Commissioner Gordon is trained and probably has 13's but Alfred and Lucious are who Batman depends on and they have 18+'s and lots of Skills. And Bond and Batman are clearly better than them. I mean, if you want to be really strict on this, most Supers shouldn't have PD/ED greater than 6-8, but we don't question them being tougher through Combat Luck or armored skintight costumes. Enforce the all the genre conventions equally.

 

Also, this game is not narrated. Die rolls are required for difficult tasks under pressure. 12 or Less(13's) fails 1/4 of the time. This is not what we see in genre. A Super failing to catch a falling NPC or blowing the demolitions roll is an extremely rare event and usually the focus of a major arc of redemption, introspection or incrimination. Having an 18+ Characteristic and 1 or 2 applicable level will keep this a rarity. Now every Super shouldn't have every Characteristic covered but the low should be 13 and the GM shouldn't be forcing them out of their niche often.

 

 

Edited August 19 by Grailknight

[LoneWolf]

When I say combat trained, I am talking more than just weapon familiarity with small arms.  So, your typical beat cop would still be at SPD 2.  SPD 3 would be SWAT or other characters that regularly engage in combat.   

 

Dr. Strange is actually well trained in martial arts.  There was one comic where he went up against Wolverine in hand-to-hand combat.  Now Wolverine was under magical control so was probably not operating at his full potential.  

 

The reason superheroes have higher than normal stats is because they are in situations where they have to use those stats. Most people in the real world are rarely in situations where they actually use physical or even mental stats.  How often does the office worker need to move heavy objects, or react to something quickly?   

 

lNT in the Hero System is more a matter of how fast you think, not how smart you are.  So, even jobs that require a lot of intelligence (as opposed to INT) usually allow plenty of time to accomplish.  Jobs that do require speed and accuracy are usually something that is highly specialized so the character would have a high roll for that skill instead of having a high stat.  Having worked with a lot of programmers I can tell you that a lot of them do not have a broad set of skills that would indicate a high INT.  Most of them don’t even really know how a computer works and cannot fix even simple problems. When they have a problem, they have people to take care of it.    
 

[Ninja-Bear]

12 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

First:  why?  Should all Supers also be stronger, more intelligent and higher Ego?  Or should their superiority be in the things that set them apart?

For a Supers game? Yup. For the most part I rather like having a more superior character. Would I play in a game like you described? Yeah. But given the choice? 

[Doc Democracy]

Given the universal(?) impression that SPD needs to be carefully managed, do we think the rules provide novice GMs with enough guidance on its management?  Should SPD have a STOP sign next to it, to indicate that it is in need of more careful management than other characteristics?

 

The key thing is that SPD is a multiplier in the system, every point of SPD adds to the multiplication of effect on how fast a character moves and the (per turn) damage output of a character.  There is nothing else (that I can think of) that has this multiplication effect in the game (though I have not spent a long time searching).  As such it probably warrants all the discussion and advice that people have been putting out here.  No?

Doc

[Grailknight]

28 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

Given the universal(?) impression that SPD needs to be carefully managed, do we think the rules provide novice GMs with enough guidance on its management?  Should SPD have a STOP sign next to it, to indicate that it is in need of more careful management than other characteristics?

 

The key thing is that SPD is a multiplier in the system, every point of SPD adds to the multiplication of effect on how fast a character moves and the (per turn) damage output of a character.  There is nothing else (that I can think of) that has this multiplication effect in the game (though I have not spent a long time searching).  As such it probably warrants all the discussion and advice that people have been putting out here.  No?

Doc

 

You're getting closer to the heart of the problem. It's not just SPD. The rules don't provide a novice GM with enough guidance period. We have probably one of the best character creation books in gaming and a large library of villains/creatures. There are supplements for spells, tech, powers and vehicles. There are plenty of broad settings. There are a number of books exploring archetypes. But there is not a single book dedicated to helping a GM design and balance a campaign. The last time I remember anything of the sort is the magic system creation chapters from 1st edition Fantasy Hero. It won't let most create a complete and balanced campaign from the start, but it'll give the first steps and have advice for fixing mistakes and making improvements.

[Hugh Neilson]

13 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

I have to agree with Hugh on this, but would put any combat trained character at 3 SPD.  The “average” super hero should be at 4 SPD, with someone particularly fast being at 5 SPD.   A 6 SPD would be a speedster.  The 5 SPD might buy down their movement slightly.

 

My drop would be about 2 SPD across the board to your 1 SPD across the board. A 2 SPD Super would match normal people. That would be rare, as most Supers have much more combat training or experience, so even a Brick who starts at 2 SPD (no special combat expertise at the start) would likely buy up to 3 with some early xp.

Agents would not need SPD 4 to have a chance at getting an action, so we can drop them to 3 SPD as combat-trained normals as well (even 2 for the "Hordes of Hydra") leaving SPD 4 reserved for elite agents closing in on "skilled human/street level super" status.

 

12 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

In the case of SPD, I can agree with the philosophy of this. Most Normals are 2 SPD, the highly trained are 3 and the rare elites may reach 4 on occasion. Supers should average 4-5 SPD, with 6 or above being rare.

 

 

As to why on Characteristics like STR, DEX, INT or PRE, Supers need to be better than a trained Normal. 

 

The characters that Supers interact with aren't the Normals with the base 8's. If a Super goes to consult with an NPC, they're talking to the experts. Bond doesn't talk to Q's lab techs, who may have 13's, he deals with Q with his 18+. Commissioner Gordon is trained and probably has 13's but Alfred and Lucious are who Batman depends on and they have 18+'s and lots of Skills. And Bond and Batman are clearly better than them. I mean, if you want to be really strict on this, most Supers shouldn't have PD/ED greater than 6-8, but we don't question them being tougher through Combat Luck or armored skintight costumes. Enforce the all the genre conventions equally.

 

Also, this game is not narrated. Die rolls are required for difficult tasks under pressure. 12 or Less(13's) fails 1/4 of the time. This is not what we see in genre. A Super failing to catch a falling NPC or blowing the demolitions roll is an extremely rare event and usually the focus of a major arc of redemption, introspection or incrimination. Having an 18+ Characteristic and 1 or 2 applicable level will keep this a rarity. Now every Super shouldn't have every Characteristic covered but the low should be 13 and the GM shouldn't be forcing them out of their niche often.

 

 

 

Batman is a poor example given that his schtick is "super-trained". Why does the Human Torch merit an 18+ INT?

The genre convention includes Supers (even those who don't have any visible special defenses - Cyclops, Green Arrow, Batman, Hawkeye - even Han Solo) charging through a hail of bullets or blaster fire with nary a scratch. Combat Luck or armored skintight costumes (the eventual explanation provided for the X-Men) IS a genre convention.

 

In genre, catching the falling NPC is typically a grab and most heroes are pretty decent at combat.  What's the DCV of a falling (not dodging) human being?  I'm not sure I would even make the Super roll if he's in range. I don't recall seeing non-skilled Supers like, say, the Thing or Changeling disarming bombs.  Those challenges tend to be for "skilled normal" Supers with the skill set to succeed. The Thing protects the normals by shielding them with his rocky body and Changeling flies it into the sky where it can detonate harmlessly.   Dr. Strange has occasionally had to perform surgery in the comics.  Captain Atom not so much.

 

11 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

When I say combat trained, I am talking more than just weapon familiarity with small arms.  So, your typical beat cop would still be at SPD 2.  SPD 3 would be SWAT or other characters that regularly engage in combat.   

 

Dr. Strange is actually well trained in martial arts.  There was one comic where he went up against Wolverine in hand-to-hand combat.  Now Wolverine was under magical control so was probably not operating at his full potential.  

 

The reason superheroes have higher than normal stats is because they are in situations where they have to use those stats. Most people in the real world are rarely in situations where they actually use physical or even mental stats.  How often does the office worker need to move heavy objects, or react to something quickly?   

 

lNT in the Hero System is more a matter of how fast you think, not how smart you are.  So, even jobs that require a lot of intelligence (as opposed to INT) usually allow plenty of time to accomplish.  Jobs that do require speed and accuracy are usually something that is highly specialized so the character would have a high roll for that skill instead of having a high stat.  Having worked with a lot of programmers I can tell you that a lot of them do not have a broad set of skills that would indicate a high INT.  Most of them don’t even really know how a computer works and cannot fix even simple problems. When they have a problem, they have people to take care of it.    
 

 

One reason Normals were moved to a standard of 8s instead of 10s was to place the PCs at a slightly higher baseline out of the gate.  But we want more damage dice and 14- skill rolls instead.

 

Dr. Strange showed no facility in Martial Arts for what, 20 - 30 years? He probably earned a bit of xp in all that time. The movie Doc deals with a much more physical form of magic, though.

 

Over time, I would expect to see Supers grow any sub-normal or even average stats a bit just because of the constant use of those abilities.  Why would Dr. Strange, surgeon recovering from major physical trauma, be skilled in martial arts and be in the top decile of physical strength and agility?  Dr. Strange, Master of the Mystic Arts, who has engaged in combat against threats both mystical and physical for many years and worked his way up to Sorceror Supreme got a lot of exercise and combat experience along the way.

When Tony Stark turned out to have some martial arts skills, it wasn't because he was a recovering heart patient that built high-tech armor a month or two back, it was because you don't get to work with and hang out with Captain America for a decade or so without him insisting on teaching you a few tricks.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

here are supplements for spells, tech, powers and vehicles. There are plenty of broad settings. There are a number of books exploring archetypes. But there is not a single book dedicated to helping a GM design and balance a campaign.

 

You're right, there is no single book that does so.  But most of the setting books have loads of GM tips and aids, such as the 6th Edition Champions sourcebook which Aaron Allston worked on.  Or the 6th edition Fantasy Hero book.  That's why they are so huge, they contain lots of stuff in them that often gets overlooked

[LoneWolf]

As a long time Dr. Strange fan I have to disagree with him never showing any facility in martial arts. In addition to fighting Wolverine with no magic he also fought Black Panther and Mantis with no magic in Defender #9.  In Doctor Strange #3 he fought Dormammu without using his magic.  Wong in the comics is not a sorcerer but highly skilled martial artist and Dr. Strange practices with him on a regular basis. I am not saying he has superhuman STR, but it is above average.  

[Grailknight]

Dr. Strange has been a martial artist since the mid-70's. He learned as the popularity of martial arts movies rose in western cultures.

[Gauntlet]

On 8/18/2024 at 7:26 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

I found No Range Penalty works wonders for this.

 

That would depend on the attack. A low point one, sure, but a higher point one, it very easily could be less expensive to purchase the Range Penalty skill levels. This is especially better if you have multiple attacks that you wish to avoid Range Modifiers for.

[Grailknight]

33 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Batman is a poor example given that his schtick is "super-trained". Why does the Human Torch merit an 18+ INT?

The genre convention includes Supers (even those who don't have any visible special defenses - Cyclops, Green Arrow, Batman, Hawkeye - even Han Solo) charging through a hail of bullets or blaster fire with nary a scratch. Combat Luck or armored skintight costumes (the eventual explanation provided for the X-Men) IS a genre convention.

 

But "super-trained" is the schtick of the entire Batman family and the Green Arrow family as well. It's only relatively recently in Batman's history that he needed any assistance in tech matters. Previously, he invented all his own toys and Green Arrow made all his own specialty arrows. The Torch doesn't have an 18+ INT but I bet he has quit a few levels in Auto-mechanics and an 18+ PRE to cover all his social skills. 

 

Supers being better is as much a genre convention Combat Luck and skintight armor. If you're going to have one ...

 

33 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

In genre, catching the falling NPC is typically a grab and most heroes are pretty decent at combat.  What's the DCV of a falling (not dodging) human being?  I'm not sure I would even make the Super roll if he's in range. I don't recall seeing non-skilled Supers like, say, the Thing or Changeling disarming bombs.  Those challenges tend to be for "skilled normal" Supers with the skill set to succeed. The Thing protects the normals by shielding them with his rocky body and Changeling flies it into the sky where it can detonate harmlessly.   Dr. Strange has occasionally had to perform surgery in the comics.  Captain Atom not so much.

 

 

One reason Normals were moved to a standard of 8s instead of 10s was to place the PCs at a slightly higher baseline out of the gate.  But we want more damage dice and 14- skill rolls instead.

 

So, you're going with the more narrative route.  You won't require any rolls of the skilled Supers and you're tailoring the challenges to Powers of the less skilled. This is a perfectly fine approach but doesn't address the SPD issue at all. That normal can now throw punches as fast as the Thing.

 

33 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Dr. Strange showed no facility in Martial Arts for what, 20 - 30 years? He probably earned a bit of xp in all that time. The movie Doc deals with a much more physical form of magic, though.

 

Over time, I would expect to see Supers grow any sub-normal or even average stats a bit just because of the constant use of those abilities.  Why would Dr. Strange, surgeon recovering from major physical trauma, be skilled in martial arts and be in the top decile of physical strength and agility?  Dr. Strange, Master of the Mystic Arts, who has engaged in combat against threats both mystical and physical for many years and worked his way up to Sorceror Supreme got a lot of exercise and combat experience along the way.

When Tony Stark turned out to have some martial arts skills, it wasn't because he was a recovering heart patient that built high-tech armor a month or two back, it was because you don't get to work with and hang out with Captain America for a decade or so without him insisting on teaching you a few tricks.

 

My points exactly. These are just the background reasons that they are better than Normals in general.

[Steve]

I’m wondering if this could be dealt with by scaling the price of SPD due to its multiplier effect. The first two points cost ten each, the next two cost fifteen each, the next two twenty each and so on. This would help to hold down the SPD roar.

It would be a little like how Damage Reduction is scaled in price, I suppose.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its worth considering that speed isn't just how fast you move or how often you act, but how well trained you are in combat.  It represents tactical ability and skill: the ability to abort more often, burn phases on things like blocks and dodges, etc.

[Gauntlet]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Its worth considering that speed isn't just how fast you move or how often you act, but how well trained you are in combat.  It represents tactical ability and skill: the ability to abort more often, burn phases on things like blocks and dodges, etc.

 

Very much so. In fact I would say that how far you can move by utilizing your running (or other movement) more often is the least valued benefit of the benefits of a High SPD. It gives you so many more opportunities in combat. It could even be possible to increase the cost of speed and not based on how high it is going, but all purchases of the SPD Characteristic.

 

Perhaps 15 or even 20 per point of Speed...

Edited August 19 by Gauntlet

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

As a long time Dr. Strange fan I have to disagree with him never showing any facility in martial arts. In addition to fighting Wolverine with no magic he also fought Black Panther and Mantis with no magic in Defender #9.  In Doctor Strange #3 he fought Dormammu without using his magic.  Wong in the comics is not a sorcerer but highly skilled martial artist and Dr. Strange practices with him on a regular basis. I am not saying he has superhuman STR, but it is above average.  

 

A matter of degree.  By Defenders #9, Doc had a 10 year publishing history, so one would expect some xp.

"Seriously, man - your Supermage is going to buy 5 STR and Martial Arts?"  "Well, sure - Wong knows Martial Arts and we spend lots of time together - and Doc knows the value of regular exercise."

 

He fought Dormammu with those lovely pincers back in Strange Tales and, while he held his own for a while, he showed no unusual HTH combat prowess then.  Maybe that lead him to get some pointers from Wong.

 

8 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

But "super-trained" is the schtick of the entire Batman family and the Green Arrow family as well. It's only relatively recently in Batman's history that he needed any assistance in tech matters. Previously, he invented all his own toys and Green Arrow made all his own specialty arrows. The Torch doesn't have an 18+ INT but I bet he has quit a few levels in Auto-mechanics and an 18+ PRE to cover all his social skills. 

 

Supers being better is as much a genre convention Combat Luck and skintight armor. If you're going to have one ...

 

So, you're going with the more narrative route.  You won't require any rolls of the skilled Supers and you're tailoring the challenges to Powers of the less skilled. This is a perfectly fine approach but doesn't address the SPD issue at all. That normal can now throw punches as fast as the Thing.

 

My points exactly. These are just the background reasons that they are better than Normals in general.

 

I won't require rolls for mundane tasks.  An 8- skill is sufficient to get a job in the field and an 11- is a trained professional, so clearly one does not need a 15- to be competent on a day to day basis.  Disarming a bomb in the field while it ticks down to zero?  Now the demolitions-trained character needs a roll. The roll differentiates fiction from gaming in that the dice, not the author, decide success or failure. Unfortunately, the dice sometimes decide failure at less than opportune times.

Growing over time means starting with somewhere to grow from.  Strange Tales #115 Dr. Strange is the origin story.  #110 is his first published appearance. As a starting character, he does not have his Cloak of Levitation or Eye of Agamotto (he has an Amulet), so we know where some early xp went, but he had plenty of published stories between then and the first demonstration of any Martial Arts skill.

 

The Thing doesn't need to throw more punches than a typical street thug (recalling that he was one in his youth). His are markedly more effective. Starting in FF #1 with a 3, or even 2, SPD would not be inconsistent with the source material.  "Compared to the mole man, you are all slow...clumsy!"  Does old Moley have a 35 DEX and an 8 SPD?

 

A 3 SPD as a former street tough and test pilot (WW II vet as well, if we look back to his original stories) does not seem unreasonable, but with all that xp, a 5 SPD today would seem fully reasonable. 

Edited August 20 by Hugh Neilson

[LoneWolf]

A defensive martial art with one or maybe two offensive maneuvers would be very useful for a sorcerer.  I actually did this for a few characters.   Take weapon element spell and use the bonus from martial block with you spell of deflection. A 15 STR and a martial escape gives him 30 STR vs grabs.  That may not get him out of bricks grab but will allow him to get out of a grab from a lot of other grabs.  Martial Dodge works vs most attacks including spells.       

[Gauntlet]

I definitely have to agree with LoneWolf, many times the only way that a magi can survive when rushed for HTH combat is at least having a little of it themselves. At least with that he/she may be able to survive long enough to either get help or to get away so he/she will be able to utilize their magic.